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      05-19-2007, 09:36 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by KCMINI View Post
I don't necessarily fully support "organized religion" in the church. I have grown up in a Baptist church my whole life..and was taught the basic morals that I have lived by. It just seems that when people go to church they turn off from their normal day to day attitude of life and pretend that they are a great person while in church. And ok, the bible is interpreted differently by everyone..so what's to say that the way ONE man sees it is correct? I'm not saying that I dont' trust the basis of Christianity..because I am devout. I'm just saying that many people today condemn others for drinking, cussing..ect when in reality..the Bible was written thousands of years ago. This is a different culture, and times are changing rapidly. Who's to say what's right or wrong? I've been partially sheltered my whole life because of my parents and their own morals that they see that I should live. So what does that create? Me rebelling. It's not right to push religion on anyone either. Jesus didn't go out forcing people to convert to his teachings and follow him on leashes. So in a sense..I view mass religion as just a way of people trying to conform with what society views right. They try to fit together what they don't understand and usually skip through religions to form to their own liking. Bottom line..you can't rely on others to tell you what you should believe or do. You have to have your own faith..and follow it.
If you read Revelations it condems 5 of the 7 churches. Just because someone or a relegion says they are of GOD does not make it so. Churches are businesses and have their own agenda. If they do not teach the BIBLE chapter and verse then they are teaching the words of Man. I grew up Baptist too. They say you cant drink. The Bible does not say that, they lie to you and pass the plate. Study the Bible and not mans words. I will suggest Shepherdschapel.com if you want to study the Bible chapter and verse not mans words and traditons.
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      05-19-2007, 09:44 PM   #156
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Study the Bible and not mans words.
Study the bible and study man's words.
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      05-19-2007, 11:23 PM   #157
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Unfortunately you mentioned the King James Bible. The King James Bible is horribly flawed as a translation of the original Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. Based on current archaeological finds and the current amount of Biblical manuscripts we have, the King James Bible is horribly outdated and serves no purpose other than a linguistic reference for the English of that time period, and if you're into it, a good piece of literature and poetic work.

The King James Bible is flawed for a couple of reasons. First, and most important for Christians, it uses the Byzantine Text Type for the New Testament, a text type shown by modern Biblical scholars to be erroneous compared to other Biblical manuscripts. There are many reasons to support this, both internal and external. Internally, Biblical manuscripts are judged based on numerous factors. Such factors include how well they harmonize with other writings. For example, a passage telling a story in Mark might tell the same story in Matthew. If some manuscripts in Mark tell the story in a certain way but tell the story in Matthew differently, and other manuscripts of the same passage tell the story the same, then it is safe to assume the second set of manuscripts have been altered to "harmonize" the corresponding stories. Another example of internal evidence include the number of words. Some manuscripts have a passage written with a certain number of words, for example, "blessed be to God," while other manuscripts will add to that phrase, such as, "blessed be to God the Father, amen." It is also safe to assume that the second set of manuscripts have been altered to include more popular sayings at the time. There are also external evidences, such as how old the manuscripts are, where they were located, etc. Unfortunately, the Byzantine Text Type, which the King James Bible uses as a reference for its New Testament, fails on both measures: it includes MORE verses, phrases and words, harmonizes more, uses manuscripts that are NEWER and further away from where the New Testament authors were.

If you flip through some English translations, you will notice some missing verses (a system set up during the King James Version). These verses are missing because they were included in the King James Version, but modern Biblical archeology and study have found those verses to be inaccurate and very likely not found in the autographs, or original writings of the New Testament authors.

Supporters of the King James Bible often defend the translation because the Byzantine Text Type is a Majority text type, meaning there are the most copies of it around. Supporters cite this as evidence that it is the true manuscript because God would protect His Word. Just because the Byzantine Text Type is the majority text type does not mean that it is God's chosen Word, because the minority text types HAVE been protected and have been passed down to us.

To me, the King James Bible IS a great piece of English literature and a testament to English poetry and writing skill during that time period. As a Biblical reference and study, however, it falls quite short.
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      05-19-2007, 11:55 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by hav2flynow View Post
If you read Revelations it condems 5 of the 7 churches. Just because someone or a relegion says they are of GOD does not make it so. Churches are businesses and have their own agenda. If they do not teach the BIBLE chapter and verse then they are teaching the words of Man. I grew up Baptist too. They say you cant drink. The Bible does not say that, they lie to you and pass the plate. Study the Bible and not mans words. I will suggest Shepherdschapel.com if you want to study the Bible chapter and verse not mans words and traditons.
I understand that..but I'm stating the flaws of "mass religion" of how people are blinded. I grew up as a child thinking that if I had sex before marriage, drank and cussed I'd burn in Hell. I was a kid..that's what I was taught THROUGH the church....and I was too young to read the Bible and know otherwise. So in a sense..they really are scaring the Hell out of you. lol. I've studied the Bible...but I honestly don't see the point of me reading it to make me a better Christian. I have read the New Testament to learn of Christ's suffering and sacrafice for our earthly sins..but to think that "oh..I studied the Bible and I go to church..surely I'm going to get into Heaven.." is somewhat misleading in today's culture. A murderer could go to Church...read the Bible and study it..but it's about actions. If you aren't a good person..and don't live by morals and claim that you're a "Christian" it means shit. I think I'm a good person. I have strong morals. I just hate how others that claim themselves to be apart of the Christian faith can judge others so quickly, treat people like shit, and do things that contradict the basic fundamentals of being Christ like and strongly back up that they are infact "Christian" because they go to church. Yes, I agree that God intended for us to be apart of the Church..but would he want us learning off the basis of false/intended teachings based on the word of men? Yes..infact if they were endowed with the gift of preaching the word of God, it does not make them God like or higher above us (like most society seems to think). Society is led to judge themselves based on how "perfect" the head officials of the Church are...I don't know..I'm starting to question a lot of things as I'm getting older..but not my faith, God, or the Bible...just to clear that up.
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      05-20-2007, 02:00 AM   #159
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Finally someone who tries to get rid of as much of what's lost in translation by going back to hebrew.

> He took the feminine DNA from Adam.

Impossible. Really. Not even god could do this. I'm telling you: god created woman first, the evidence is all around us. Maybe Adam means first woman in hebrew?

> Magnetic north and True north are 3degrees off

Magnetic north wanders and switches sides on occasion. It's not a steady position. The magnetic field is caused by the liquid iron core of the spinning earth. You can see the magnetic field switching sides and wandering over the millions of year by looking at the magnetic alignment in solidified lava samples. Funny thing is these samples go back further to before god created the earth ;-)

> Adam (8th day creation) was the seed line that Christ would come through.

If there was but one man and one woman, it's an inevitability.

> God gave you free will to make your own choices

This is the clincher:
Does he know what choice I will make?

If he does, there is no free will.
If he doesn't, then he's not omnipotent and therefore not god.
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      05-20-2007, 10:57 AM   #160
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I agree. I've argued this before with my friends. Christianity on the other hand, opposes this idea of "free will". Theologically it denies humans the right to free will because in fact we are taught that God has our lives mapped out...which is basically predeterminism. I think that with my faith in God..that he has control of my life. Life in it's self cannot in any way be random. Look at the creation of everything..there is a purpose. So view your life at where you are today and think about how you have met the people in your life. Do you think that there is a reason for everything..? Or in fact...is it by coincidence and chance...? I believe there is purpose in everything, but we have the basic right to make decisions that will define us as a person and by our faith. We are born with God's grace, if we sway from faith and deny Him, then it is our own choice. God knows everything. Period. He can't control our lives, but he knows what will happen. We aren't suppose to try to completely understand the mysteries of God's work and the basis of life. It is called faith for a reason.
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      05-21-2007, 07:29 AM   #161
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"This is the clincher:
Does he know what choice I will make?

If he does, there is no free will.
If he doesn't, then he's not omnipotent and therefore not god."

This is a horrible argument. For one huge reason, God may know what you are thinking, doing, or about to do but does that mean God is going to control your decisions? This argument has a huge Flaw because it makes a huge assumption. An assumption that if I know what you are going to do that I will force you to make that decision. God knowing what decisions we will make only goes to show that he knows our personalities and us personally.

Ex. If I give you a choice of Coke and Diet Coke and I know for a fact you are going to choose Coke. Did I make you choose Coke or did you have the free will to choose either one.

Answer: I know you so well that I dont have to make you do anything. You make the choice on your own.

God does not make us do anything! We do everything on our own will!
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      05-21-2007, 02:02 PM   #162
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> We aren't suppose to try to completely understand the mysteries of God's work and the basis of life.

Why? Is it somehow dangerous to understand that?

> God may know what you are thinking, doing, or about to do but does that mean God is going to control your decisions?

No, of course not. That means there is no purpose to creation.

See: one little life means nothing in the grand scheme of things, and if the outcome everything is already known, the purpose is gone.

If god is truly omnipotent, he could skip the entire part in between and go straight to the end.

But we're here, which means he isn't omnipotent. Which means he's not god. (Might be a pretty powerful being still, but no all-powerful)

> If I give you a choice of Coke and Diet Coke and I know for a fact you are going to choose Coke. Did I make you choose Coke or did you have the free will to choose either one.

If you knew forsure I was going to take the coke, there was no reason to offer me the diet coke. The Diet coke offer was hollow and that in itself says something about the entity offering it.

You have to question the intentions of a being which would torment you with choices it knows you've already made.
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      05-21-2007, 02:53 PM   #163
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Easy Max, that's how Lucifer got his start . . .

On the omnipotent issue, maybe God is doing it as a gift to his children, US, giving us the chance to make a choice that is right and be closer to Him.
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      05-21-2007, 03:49 PM   #164
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Magical thinking is for children.

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Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. -Buddha
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      05-21-2007, 05:31 PM   #165
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"> God may know what you are thinking, doing, or about to do but does that mean God is going to control your decisions?

No, of course not. That means there is no purpose to creation.

See: one little life means nothing in the grand scheme of things, and if the outcome everything is already known, the purpose is gone.

If god is truly omnipotent, he could skip the entire part in between and go straight to the end.

But we're here, which means he isn't omnipotent. Which means he's not god. (Might be a pretty powerful being still, but no all-powerful)

> If I give you a choice of Coke and Diet Coke and I know for a fact you are going to choose Coke. Did I make you choose Coke or did you have the free will to choose either one.

If you knew forsure I was going to take the coke, there was no reason to offer me the diet coke. The Diet coke offer was hollow and that in itself says something about the entity offering it.

You have to question the intentions of a being which would torment you with choices it knows you've already made."

It is your assumption in that there is no meaning/purpose to creation. When actually there are many reasons to which God may have created us. I think of life as a gift and hence cherish every moment of it. If one little life means nothing than whats the point of you living? Every life is significant because it affects all those around it. Its like a pond, if you add something to the pond does not the pond level rise. If you add a pebble does it not make a ripple? They do, do they not? God is not like us only in one point in time. God spans all of time from the beginning to the end. Eternity is a Long Long time our lifetime is but a spec on this eternal time line.

See: take for instance a movie you have seen and enjoy. do you fastforward to the end or watch it all the way through? I know for me, my family, and my friends we watch it all the way through even though we know exactly what is going to happen. the argument that God is not Omnipotent and powerful is a weak argument at best.

The offer of Coke vs. Diet Coke was in no way an empty offer but a gift to allow you to choose. Just because I know the outcome does not mean that you know the outcome. Especially, every choice and outcome you make.
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      05-21-2007, 10:48 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bullitt5897 View Post
">
The offer of Coke vs. Diet Coke was in no way an empty offer but a gift to allow you to choose. Just because I know the outcome does not mean that you know the outcome. Especially, every choice and outcome you make.
If the outcome of an event is certain then there is no choice. If God offers a Coke & Diet Coke he knows the outcome with certainty - or he isn't omnipotent. Since he knows what will happen there is no choice.

This isn't the same thing as you (a human) "knowing for a fact" what the outcome will be. Guessing the outcome based on experience is not the same as knowing.

Since God really knows the outcome of our choices ... all of them...he has our lives mapped out. He knows what you will do tomorrow, next year, the day you die. He has a map ... he created the map. There is no free will.

The only thing you can claim is that he gives us the illusion of choice. I wonder why he toys with us? What does it want?
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      05-22-2007, 08:45 AM   #167
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"Since God really knows the outcome of our choices ... all of them...he has our lives mapped out. He knows what you will do tomorrow, next year, the day you die. He has a map ... he created the map. There is no free will."

Actually, you are making a lot of assumptions! The main one that God created the map!!! Just because he knows still does not mean that there isn't a choice.

The Definition of choice:
1. The act of choosing; selection.
2. The power, right, or liberty to choose; option.
3. One that is chosen.
4. A number or variety from which to choose: a wide choice of styles and colors.
5. The best or most preferable part.
6. Care in choosing.
7. An alternative.

Its not an illusion and God does not toy with us. In fact thats a very narrow and immature view of the situation. what does God want? hmmmm I think we have said this several times: A relationship with you.
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      05-22-2007, 01:07 PM   #168
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> Just because he knows still does not mean that there isn't a choice.

The fact that you exist means there is no omnipotent benevolent god, because for an omnipotent god, the 'goal' would be available instantaneously.

If you believe that god exists, the fact that god needs *you* to exist means something cannot be achieved without your existence.

I'm sure someone else can do a better job explaining this to you.

The question you have to ask yourself is if you would still worship god if he was not all-powerful.
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      05-22-2007, 01:22 PM   #169
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Atheism is a form of religion. Plain and simple. Myself, I am agnostic. I only state it if asked. Unlike many atheist (who are becoming what they hate ie. christians) who shout it out and feel they must tell you the truth.

Not saying you are like that ATG but realize atheism has been becoming what it dislikes.
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      05-22-2007, 02:15 PM   #170
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God, being omnipotent, exists without the bounds of space-time that we live in, so he "knows" our choice since he is in all those places at once. But that doesn't imply we don't have the ability to choose, and He knows because somewhere along the line we have already made that choice.
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      05-23-2007, 11:45 AM   #171
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> God, being omnipotent, exists without the bounds of space-time that we live in, so he "knows" our choice since he is in all those places at once.

I'm sorry, you fail to see the significance of that statement.

What you are saying is that, from god's point of view, you've already made all of your choices. God is omniponent so you need not exist for god to know which choices you have made in your life.

So why do you exist, if god has no need for you to exist?

What is it about your existence that god cannot do without?
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      05-23-2007, 11:48 AM   #172
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> Magical thinking is for children.

Your ideas are intriguing and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
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      05-23-2007, 12:51 PM   #173
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Max,
your argument is flawed in the fact that you only see the scenario from a human point of view relative to our form of a timeline. I dont think you can grasp that God can exist in all time frames and periods. Does God needs us? no he doesnt but he still created us for his pleasure. I exist because God felt that I should. Some atheists have an authority complex and thats why they cant see what we are talking about when we talk about God.

"What you are saying is that, from god's point of view, you've already made all of your choices. God is omnipotent so you need not exist for god to know which choices you have made in your life."

If God did not create us then we would have no actions, choices, failures or achievements.

We are simply Gods companions. Is this too hard to grasp? Is understanding that God can know everything without predetermining our future hard to grasp?

For me I am analytical and have been able to wrap my mind around these subjects. I just dont know why it is so hard to understand?
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      05-23-2007, 01:18 PM   #174
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bullitt5897:

Its good to see that you understand about god being able to exist since the beginning of time, we muslims believe this too. We believe Allah created us to WORSHIP him, although yes Allah does already know what we are going to do in our lives. But does he deny us free-will? of course not, we still have the power to live good lives and THAT is the main point. We have the power to be good people or bad people. I will give you some proof of this in the Quran that Allah knows what we are going to do before we do it:

Broke up the two hands of Abu Lahab (Abu-Lahab has been rendered completely helpless in opposing the Divine Order and he has been destroyed and he broke up (completely).

Did not benefit him his wealth and whatever he earned (through his concepts, beliefs and actions).

Very soon he reaches a Fire of (furious) flame,

(The Quran, 111:1-3)


Abu lahab can be destroyed only when he died doing evil deeds. Abu Lahab was the bitterest enemy of Muhammad, and opposed the establishment of Islam to the utmost of his power. In this verse it clearly states that Abu Lahab, would be condemned to Hell (because he would never accept Islam moreover he die, doing evil deeds). Even after 11 years after this Quranic revelation, Abu Lahab continue his evil deeds against peace and thus died a evil doer.

Abu lahab died 11 years after the revelation of these verses. He did all possible efforts to disprove Islam but why did Abu Lahab waste this golden opportunity to prove Islam wrong? If Abu Lahab were accepted Islam then these verses were disprove automatically. What made Muhammad so certain that even in ten years Abu Lahab would not exploit this tempting opportunity?

Edit: for those who do not know, the Holy Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) revealed the Quran to us. The Quran is Allah's words BUT revealed through his prophet. When you read the Quran you really gotta ask yourself how all those centuries ago, an uneducated, illiterate man (the Holy Prophet) can know all these things? check the link for more interesting facts about Islam: http://www.geocities.com/thetruebook/
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      05-23-2007, 01:46 PM   #175
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> I dont think you can grasp that God can exist in all time frames and periods.

I grasp the concept of omnipotence just fine.

> Some atheists have an authority complex and thats why they cant see what we are talking about when we talk about God.

I'm not an atheist. But you're right if you think I don't have a submissive personality.

The problem is that what you are saying only makes sense to someone that believes in god.

I'm not sure how it came to pass that you made that leap of faith, but I haven't, so what you're saying sounds as believable as anything you could tell me about red-and-blue polka-dot fairies.

That's not to say I don't defend your right to believe in god/fairies or respect your beliefs.

> If God did not create us then we would have no actions, choices, failures or achievements.

Yeah, but even if you did not exist, he would still know what those would be, right? He's omnipotent? So why create you at all? Unless he needs you for something.

> Is understanding that God can know everything without predetermining our future hard to grasp?

Yes. An omnipotent god makes free will impossible. God knew all the choices you will make before he created the universe so your life is pre-determined.

It's like knowing 6 will come up, then rolling the dice and saying the dice was free to choose which side up it landed.

Without uncertainty, there is no free will.

> I just dont know why it is so hard to understand?

I don't know. Perhaps I'm dumber than you are.
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      05-23-2007, 01:47 PM   #176
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> We believe Allah created us to WORSHIP him

Allah likes being worshipped?
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