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      05-17-2007, 10:23 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by 561design View Post
What you just said just sounds like a load of excuses to cover up the biggest lie in the world.

Are you Republican?

I have yet to hear about ANYONE having a REAL conversation with God. I'm sorry but it's not documented any where on anything in the world. The bible doesn't count since it was re-written and edited a billion times over. I don't exactly count the image of christ on a piece of toast a message from God either.

Stop blaming Catholics because that's one of the most riduculous things I've been reading in this thread. Vlad the Impaler was Christian and he spent his lifetime fighting off the non-Christian Turkish hordes trying to invade from the middle east.
first of all im not trying to make an excuse. i think what has brought a big confusion is how historians called the big religion. they called the big religion Christians when they never followed the teachings of Christ. AGAIN, just because the big religion claimed they are Christians does not mean they really are Christians, and in the same manner, just because historians called the big religion "Christians" does not mean they really are Christians.

this might be my last post for this thread as to the argument is becoming a personal attack. i posted here to answer questions and not to bash other religions. you yourself have seen how the big religion is, i am simply implying that you are right for seeing them for their injustices and turning your back from them. but the mistake is that you generalize the whole Christian population as part of them when the real Christians followed Christ's teachings as opposed to what the big religion had done.

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And how do you define a REAL christian. You use that term alot, so you must have a very good idea of what makes up a REAL christian. Is that someone that picks and chooses what they wish to follow and goes to church during the holidays? Is it someone that does whatever they want and just say "I'll ask for forgiveness later." Or are people considered christians, until they actually do something wrong? Then they're not real christians right? Which one is it? I've come across quite a few people that I would imagine to be real christians. And the things they do are very unethical, both in the business world and personal life.

To me it just seems like a big lie. The Christian community and God will claim all that is good in the world. Everything bad we can blame on a host of others. Those would include but not limited to the devil, the devil's followers, TV evangelists, and non-christians. If it does turn out that they ARE christians then we can just say they're not REAL christians. We're soo rightous and perfect that we can do no wrong. BUT if we do, we can ask for forgiveness and still be considered REAL christians.
you are absolutely correct on that!

Real Christians follow Christ's teachings, hence the word Christian. They love their neighbors as they love themselves. They fear God and they are honest up to the very little things. They abide in the law of God and the law of man to keep things in order. They fast, they pray, they sing praises to the Lord, they worship God in spirit (not in images) and they show compassion to mankind. When they fall, they try to get back on their feet again, they ask for forgiveness, they forgive, they don't give excuses for their mistakes, shortcomings, and faults- they take responsibility and try to make up. They struggle through life's temptations. but these few descriptions does not limit what a REAL Christian is.

If someone you know claims to be a Christian but you see them doing things in unethical ways and they are not struggling to change their ways as opposed to what you thought Christ have taught then you can answer your own question. again, real Christians are followers of Christ.

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I have yet to see a real positive impact from mass religions in our community. Other than the fact that they try really hard to recruit you to their church and if you refuse. Then they treat you "differently". But then again that's not really positive is it.

Is it ok for the church to take money from "part-time" christians? Is it really ethical? Is there a test they give you at the door of church to prove that you're a REAL christian?
don't wait to see a positive impact from mass religion, you'll forever be disappointed. ever since the first religion started man has never found what they really needed out of the religion then they modified it and start a new one and then it just branched off to thousands and thousands of different religions. and if a church treats you differently because you refuse to believe their teachings then stay away from it. again, you are correct, thats not really positive.

it is not okay for Church JUST to take money from Christians, nor it is okay for a person to be a "part-time" Christian. a real Christian Church will explain things to you and if you decide you dont want to give, its up to your own conviction. however, be aware that a Church with full time workers cannot sustain itself. if the first Christians did not give to the Church it will not get far and people will not hear from it. for full time workers to be able to concentrate on their spiritual duties they need the member's support. any support, not just necessarily money. and you'll see that a real Church of God will not live an extravagant life off of member's contributions.

there is a big difference between "BEING a Christian" and "being in a Christian religion." this thing can be really confusing to some. just because a person is in a Christian religion/denomination does not mean that the person is a real Christian. you can identify a real one with their acts not just by their claims, real ones dont even have to claim that they are because you'll see it in them. there's not a lot of them though. BEING a Christian is not limited to a single denomination. a person can be in any denomination and as long as the person follows the teachings of Christ then the person is a real Christian.

this is a very complex issue. and i think i have explained enough about religion as to how a Christian religion is different from real Christian individuals who follow Christ's teachings. if its about God then its going to be more complex, too complex for me because God is beyond any human comprehension. there is no way i can explain the existence of God to anyone. I myself at the age of 22 is just starting to realize and understand things. i just have faith in the existence of God as faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen.

i will never push my belief to anyone. if you dont believe me then its up to you.

peace out guys! enjoy your bimmers.
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      05-18-2007, 01:35 AM   #134
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> i am pretty sure they have historical evidence it did happen?

A global submerging of all land never happened. There isn't enough water for that. If all the ice melts, the sea level would go up 64 meter. That's pretty dramatic but there is plenty of land higher than that.

The biblical flood story is probably the result of a disaster like the one in New Orleans or the Indian Ocean tsunami.

... Talking about New Orleans: Were are all the Christians that are supposed to be helping out there? I thought god was pretty big in the US.

Apparently it's mostly lip service.
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      05-18-2007, 07:16 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Max_! View Post
Apparently it's mostly lip service.
Or, maybe not,
Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans, Louisiana, and areas of Mississippi and Alabama on August twenty-ninth. New Orleans suffered severe flooding. The storm damaged barriers meant to keep out the water of Lake Pontchartrain.

Charity workers often arrived to help people much faster than government aid workers. Local religious groups aided Katrina victims when Red Cross and government workers could not enter affected areas. Religious groups reportedly sheltered and fed a half-million people.

The religious charities also are doing this for people who fled Hurricane Rita. Rita struck September twenty-fourth. The storm caused widespread damage in parts of Texas and Louisiana. It hit some areas struck earlier by Hurricane Katrina.
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      05-18-2007, 08:01 AM   #136
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i am pretty sure they have historical evidence it did happen? when i went to the grand canyon they said the way it was created was from the flood.... unless the state park system is Christian propaganda....?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong. But the grand canyon was created with water from glaciers that were part of the last ice age. That's how the great lakes were formed as well.
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      05-18-2007, 08:36 AM   #137
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So these are probably religious groups that do not believe Katrina might have been caused by god as punishment for abortion?

http://mediamatters.org/items/200509130004

To be honest though, this is probably one of the few occasions when organized religion can make a difference. I guess it's more to do with your government dropping the ball than greedy christians.
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      05-18-2007, 08:50 AM   #138
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To be honest though, this is probably one of the few occasions when organized religion can make a difference. I guess it's more to do with your government dropping the ball than greedy christians.
I think it has more to with a belief in the proper role of government. I would hope the government would be a last resort after family, friends, community, church, charities, etc... before moving to the different levels of government - local, state, then federal.
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Last edited by ganeil; 05-18-2007 at 11:06 AM.
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      05-18-2007, 11:05 AM   #139
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"A global submerging of all land never happened. There isn't enough water for that. If all the ice melts, the sea level would go up 64 meter. That's pretty dramatic but there is plenty of land higher than that.

The biblical flood story is probably the result of a disaster like the one in New Orleans or the Indian Ocean tsunami."

You have heard of under water deposits and the Pangea Theory Right.... so it not far reached and yes there would have to be the flood for the continents to be how they are now. According to the Bible "God pushed on the earth and the ground opened up" hmmm lets look at it from a scientific explanation. God could very easily used a meteor as a tool for the flood. Many scientists believe there was a hydrogen oxygen layer in the atmosphere when the dinosaurs were on the earth. This layer is responsible for the climate that they lived in and would help to explain the long lifespan of all the animals. Our bodies are not meant to take the abuse of the suns rays. This layer also according to the predominant theory could have been pierced by a meteor and that in turn could have struck the earth causing the opening of the underground reservoirs. This event could flood the Pangea Island and in fact there could have been a flood. The grand Canyon = very good evidence of a possible flood. the fact that the continents are still shifting and moving prove the Pangea theory is highly possible. The fact that there are over 10 different accounts in historical civilizations from china to South America to the middle east and Africa of this event and they all claim that the event happened the same way a FLOOD.

"So, just so I'm clear ... you believe that there are no dinosaurs now because they didn't get on the Ark? Did they "space on the date"? or maybe God was punishing them for chasing Fred and Wilma Flintstone?"

First with the flinestone comment how am I supposed to really respect your questions? I dont know to what species were all on the ark. All I know is that some did make it through called the "behemoth" and "leviathan" which are accounted for in several cultures.
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      05-18-2007, 12:59 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by bullitt5897 View Post
You have heard of under water deposits and the Pangea Theory Right.... so it not far reached and yes there would have to be the flood for the continents to be how they are now. According to the Bible "God pushed on the earth and the ground opened up" hmmm lets look at it from a scientific explanation. God could very easily used a meteor as a tool for the flood. Many scientists believe there was a hydrogen oxygen layer in the atmosphere when the dinosaurs were on the earth. This layer is responsible for the climate that they lived in and would help to explain the long lifespan of all the animals. Our bodies are not meant to take the abuse of the suns rays. This layer also according to the predominant theory could have been pierced by a meteor and that in turn could have struck the earth causing the opening of the underground reservoirs. This event could flood the Pangea Island and in fact there could have been a flood. The grand Canyon = very good evidence of a possible flood. the fact that the continents are still shifting and moving prove the Pangea theory is highly possible. The fact that there are over 10 different accounts in historical civilizations from china to South America to the middle east and Africa of this event and they all claim that the event happened the same way a FLOOD.

Did you have a different science book in school than I did? How in the world is there so much water below the Earth that it welled up and flooded the surface? There is no proof that there was ever an underground aquifier that was ever that large. Something that large would have obviously left some sort of sign of it's prescence.
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      05-18-2007, 01:05 PM   #141
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Anyone watch the show last night on NGEO about the moon? Over the history of our planet, there were some SERIOUS tidal surges, they're talking on the order of 10,000 ft walls of water scrubbing across the continents in 3 hour intervals.

Here, again for me, despite what science can/can't prove, my FAITH leads me to believe.
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      05-18-2007, 02:42 PM   #142
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I never said anything about 1 reservoir and yes there is evidence to support the fact that there are underground water sources. the fact we have underground rivers proves that. go read your science book again and maybe this time you will learn something. I apologize if this seems offensive but dang man do the research dont make assumptions!
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      05-18-2007, 03:22 PM   #143
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I'm aware of underground aquifiers. You suggested that a single impact of a meteor was the catalyst to cause a rupture. You're logic is flawed to think that, there is that amount of water that came fom underground. What happened to all of it after it reached the surface? Did it drain back underground?

I'm not offended by anything posted on an internet forum. I'm just confused at your logic and how you've come to these conclusions.
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      05-18-2007, 06:53 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Here, again for me, despite what science can/can't prove, my FAITH leads me to believe.
This is the most reasonable religous position I have read here. If you are going to believe - just believe!. Don't make up ridiculous pseudo-scientific explanations that discredit you and your entire religion ... bullitt5897 I'm looking in your direction.

Why can't "Christians" get it ... the important part of the religion is the message. The message that Jesus (real or not) was trying to get across. The message has had nothing to do with dinosaurs & Fred, a giant flood or a 6,000 year old earth. That is all irrelevant. None of that matters. Listen to what he said ... or don't and continue to support hate and killing.

Christianity has become a death cult. I don't think that's what JC had in mind.
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      05-19-2007, 02:26 AM   #145
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> they're talking on the order of 10,000 ft walls of water scrubbing across the continents

Yeah, well, the Ark was kinda big but it would not survive one of those superwaves.

Plus, 10000ft still does not wash the entire earth clean. There's lots of places higher than that (a few twice as high).

> Christianity has become a death cult. I don't think that's what JC had in mind.

The word 'guilt' needs to go in there somewhere.
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      05-19-2007, 12:10 PM   #146
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Why do bad things happen to good people?

Are there any "good" people? I believe all of humanity is inherently depraved, Christians, Muslims, Atheists alike.
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      05-19-2007, 12:50 PM   #147
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"Christianity has become a death cult. I don't think that's what JC had in mind."

I dont think thats totally true. I think man in his Infinite wisdom has decided to corrupt what God had sent forth in his message. A day will come when things will change and God will again be Heard and Respected. This is my opinion and belief take it for what you will.

Mike
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      05-19-2007, 02:07 PM   #148
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> has decided to corrupt what God had sent forth in his message.

What message?

> A day will come when things will change and God will again be Heard and Respected.

Today is not that day. Man will outgrow god eventually.

(if you believe in god: because isn't is always the wish of the parents that the children better them in every way?)
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      05-19-2007, 02:21 PM   #149
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"What message?"

That he created us and wants to have a relationship with us. Its our choice to want to come closer to God or reject Him.

"Today is not that day. Man will outgrow god eventually."

Very True!!! I have noticed so much where men now despise God because of the action and inactions of other men. It is even proven in Revelations.


"because isn't is always the wish of the parents that the children better them in every way?"

I wish this was true in every case but sadly there are some parents who could give a shit about their kids and its very sad. My parents went well beyond their means and way for me and my younger brother to give us the life they never had and I am glad to say they succeeded. On my own @ 22 and have my own business and finance degree. Even have enough money to buy me any car I want for under 100k hehe E92 M3 here I come.

Much respect
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      05-19-2007, 06:06 PM   #150
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I was not going to continue to post on this thread because it has really gotten out of hand. The non-belivers just want to flame the believers and many of the belivers and non-belivers are unstudied Biblically. However, i felt sorry for the guys all woried about the Dinosaurs. Also, I will address Adams Rib and Noahs Ark from the Bible.

Read Job 40:15 Behemoth (behemah in Hebrew) meaning any large quadruped.
Job reads: God talking to Job: Behold now Behemoth which I have made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox. (Etc) He moveth his tail like a Cedar. His Bones are as strong pieces of brass;his bones are like bars of iron.
What animal do we have today with a tail as big as a Cedar (cedar of Lebanon was HUGE and mentioned throughout the Bible) and Bones like iron? Fossils of Dinosaurs.

You first have to understand the 3 Earth ages. The age that was. 2 Peter 3 will help (there are many other verses but Im not planning on spending all day here (just to get flammed) doing a Bible study) You can get a "Strongs Exhaustive Concordance" it will help you find verses and take words back to the Greek or Hebrew from the Manuscripts.
We lived for millions if not billions of years with God (and dinosaurs)in our spirtual bodies on Earth as it was in its full glory (there is palm wood in the artic, found when drilling for oil, there is palm wood fossilized in Arizona) After Satan's rebellion and the rebellion of 1/3 of Gods children with him, God ended that age with the kataballo(greek) thorw down, destruction. All was distroyed including the Dinosaurs. After God cleansed the earth (shook it, Magnetic north and True north are 3degrees off, causing deserts and artic, it will be returned after this flesh earth age). He recreated animals(no dinos this time) (one day with the Lord is like a thousand years with man, one day of Gods creation in the Bible is really 1000 man years) etc. On the 6th day (or 6thousandth year(Genesis 1:26) after the Kataballo, he created man in his own image without knowlege of the world that was to decide if (with free will as we always had) we would follow Satan or follow God). Rested on the 7th day and on the 8th (or 8thousandth year)(Genesis 2:5,6,7) there was not a man to till the ground. The Lord formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils (this is ADAM, 8th day creaiton not 6th day man creation.) Genesis 2:22 And the Rib, bla bla (Rib in Hebrew: Tsela: Feminine, curve) The word rib in Hebrew is not a bone in the body but the DNA, Helix Cureve as we know today. He took the feminine DNA from Adam. (use your Strongs Concordance to take rib back to the Hebrew) Adam (8th day creation) was the seed line that Christ would come through. Genesis 4:16/17 Cain went to Nod and took a wife (HELLO people, this was not his sister, there was a 6th day creation of man/woman) READ!!!

Now about Noah: his daughters were the only ones that did not mix with the (Hebrew:Naphal:fallen angels,angels that followed satan) Read Genesis 6. They saw the daughters of men and took them wives. Their offspring where Giants (Hebrew: nephil: giant) and had full knowlege of the world that was.
The point of being in Flesh in this 2nd earth age was not to know the world that was and to decide if we are going to follow satan or God. So God flooded the region (not the world-Mr Penguin man) and killed everything in the region that had the influx of the fallen angels and giants. In Revelations it states when Satan(antichrist or Greek: Antichristos= opposite, instead of) instead of Christ will return with his fallen angels to give and take in marriage as in the days of Noah. However, the real Christ will return in 5months after the fake or antichrist, so the Nephil will never have a chance to be born of woman.

Don't flame the messenger. I am not here to convert anybody, God gave you free will to make your own choices. I did not make up what I said above, I study the Bible (i do not study mans word or man made Church traditions that make VOID the WORD of God) and am simply relaying what is said in the Bible. I even gave you many verses to check it out for yourselves. Weather you believe it or not, thats up to you!
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      05-19-2007, 07:24 PM   #151
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That is, if you believe in Free Will.
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      05-19-2007, 07:29 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by hav2flynow View Post

We lived for millions if not billions of years with God (and dinosaurs)in our spirtual bodies on Earth as it was in its full glory (there is palm wood in the artic, found when drilling for oil, there is palm wood fossilized in Arizona) After Satan's rebellion and the rebellion of 1/3 of Gods children with him, God ended that age with the kataballo(greek) thorw down, destruction. All was distroyed including the Dinosaurs. After God cleansed the earth (shook it, Magnetic north and True north are 3degrees off, causing deserts and artic, it will be returned after this flesh earth age).
Is there a Bible reference for this? ... I'd love to read it.

The quaint thing about the bible is that you can interpret it to mean anything at all.

Do you really believe the bible was written such that the meaning had to be scoured out of it with so much effort? Why? I think it was written for simple people to read (or more likely listen to) and understand a very simple message. Now people are trying to make "sense" out of it ... trying to turn it into a history book. You miss the point entirely. Such efforts also smack of a lack of faith.
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      05-19-2007, 08:00 PM   #153
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I don't necessarily fully support "organized religion" in the church. I have grown up in a Baptist church my whole life..and was taught the basic morals that I have lived by. It just seems that when people go to church they turn off from their normal day to day attitude of life and pretend that they are a great person while in church. And ok, the bible is interpreted differently by everyone..so what's to say that the way ONE man sees it is correct? I'm not saying that I dont' trust the basis of Christianity..because I am devout. I'm just saying that many people today condemn others for drinking, cussing..ect when in reality..the Bible was written thousands of years ago. This is a different culture, and times are changing rapidly. Who's to say what's right or wrong? I've been partially sheltered my whole life because of my parents and their own morals that they see that I should live. So what does that create? Me rebelling. It's not right to push religion on anyone either. Jesus didn't go out forcing people to convert to his teachings and follow him on leashes. So in a sense..I view mass religion as just a way of people trying to conform with what society views right. They try to fit together what they don't understand and usually skip through religions to form to their own liking. Bottom line..you can't rely on others to tell you what you should believe or do. You have to have your own faith..and follow it.
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      05-19-2007, 09:27 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90Lurker View Post
Is there a Bible reference for this? ... I'd love to read it.

The quaint thing about the bible is that you can interpret it to mean anything at all.

Do you really believe the bible was written such that the meaning had to be scoured out of it with so much effort? Why? I think it was written for simple people to read (or more likely listen to) and understand a very simple message. Now people are trying to make "sense" out of it ... trying to turn it into a history book. You miss the point entirely. Such efforts also smack of a lack of faith.

To study you really need a Companion Bible (King James) and a Strongs Exhaustive Concordance, so you can take the words back to the Greek or Hebrew as they were written. It makes more "sense" than the English. And yes, you are meant to scour/study. Im sure you scour/study your BMW manual. When you love something God or BMW you learn all you can. I will give you some verses to study regarding the world that was, or before the foundations of the world. Genesis 1:2 Its says "the world was without form and void. If you were to go to the manuscripts (or use a companion Bible Apndx 146, or a Strongs Concordance you will find the Hebrew:Tohu va bohu, "it was made waste and became empty" God destroyed what was there before and made it waste and it BECAME empty. Also 2 Peter 3 5-7, 1 Peter 1:20, Ephesians 1:4-5, John 17:24, Titus 1:2 Psalms 90: 1-2.
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