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      05-16-2007, 06:37 PM   #111
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Poor dinosaurs.

Bullitt, why did you say "fuck" in another thread??
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      05-16-2007, 09:56 PM   #112
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Its a bad habit that i have grown up with. Dad was a sailor and well I guess a lil rubbed off on me. I watch the language and I apologize for the crudeness of the language.

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      05-16-2007, 10:45 PM   #113
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Why do bad things happen to good people? It depends on all the people around. IF you consider me in the good person category, why did my wife have an affair during the first year of our marriage, then get pregnant, then move out and live with him? Who really knows. BUT, *I* am a better person now. And she knows it because we are still friends, I still love her, I forgave her betrayal. I now have something I had always asked God for, someone who loves me at least as much as I love her. I have 3 wonderful sons, and more family than I can count most days, so much so that I'm overwhelmed with joy to the point of having to hide away from it on days.
I know about cancer, my little brother had it when he was 12. We kept him alive by coming together as a family. I hadn't hugged my mom in years, but once he got sick we came together. It's a TOUGH way to get people together who should naturally be that way. So how much more of a bad situation is needed to bring together people who are different? Teh tidal waves in teh Pacific, did you care that those were people not of your race/color/gender if you sent a donation, or even thought about their situation and wondered what you would do if put in the same situation? THAT has nothign to do with religion, it goes back to what I liek to think is a devine portion of my humanity.
MY personal faith (choice DESPITE what my brain tells me via science) is to follow Jesus into heaven by asking for his forgiveness and knocking on his door asking for sanctuary. Do I expect there won't be Hindis or Muslims or Buddhist there with me, no way. The path that each chooses to make it to true communion with God is a specific choice for each person.
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      05-16-2007, 11:40 PM   #114
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EDIT: misunderstood the previous post (too much caffeine after dinner)
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      05-16-2007, 11:41 PM   #115
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      05-17-2007, 03:21 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by 561design View Post
I dunno. I talk to my son alot and he responds to me. When I was little I tried to talk to God. But that mofo never answered me back. I've asked him all sorta stuff like...

"God, Why do you let your followers murder and rape us? Why do you let your Catholic priests sodomize our precious children? I think it's safe to say that we really don't like this. Isn't your Catholic hierarchy hand chosen by you from the top down? Are you afraid to admit to making a mistake in your choices? Can you please admit the mistake and let our children grow up in a normal, ethical and safe environment? "

Or

"God, Did you really make Eve from one of Adam's ribs? Why didn't you make her from dust just like Adam? And, why do men and women have the same number of ribs if you stole one from Adam to make Eve?"
a lot of people try to talk to God but unfortunately not all of them get a response. put it this way... you can call your father using a phone, but if you miss a single digit you will never reach your father even if you try to call him for eternity using the same method. finding the real God is really easy. you just have to call on Him the proper way. the proper way takes a little time to figure out for some. some still try to talk to a piece of wood, a piece of masonry, or a piece of plastic molding carved into an image of a random person with a beard and long hair. if you have a son, you might also want him to call out to you with respect and discipline so that you'll respond to his needs.

God DOES NOT allow His followers to murder and rape people. if they do what you mentioned above then its clear that they are not REAL Christians who dont remain in religion but rather in a personal relationship with God. Why? because if they are REAL Christians, they should have followed Christ's teachings. He NEVER apointed the Catholic hierarchy, the people appointed themselves in to the position and made their own declarations and claims and started taking over places. thats why we have protestants now. they are the group who have broken out of the Roman Catholicism. but unfortunately, not all protestants are real Christians. but you dont hear as much crime within the protestant group compared with the Catholics where you can trace their hedious crimes off of history. they even blamed Pontius Pilate in one of their prayers for crucifying Christ when its their empire who wanted it to happen because they were feeling threathened by Christ's claim of being a King.

And God, created Eve out of Adam's rib because He wanted men to treat women with respect and dignity as if they are part of our body. Just like a mother would take care of her child because the child is the flesh of her flesh, he wanted men to take care of women as if they were also born of us. He wanted men to not look down on women and treat them as objects but rather another human being just like them.
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      05-17-2007, 03:22 AM   #117
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> There is no way to know for certain that anything exists besides our imagination.

True. You can prove to yourself that you exists but everything else is up for grabs.

That said, there's nothing else but this figment of my imagination going on,so I might just as well play along with it.

> Made up numbers are bad, mmmkay?

Sorry, but those numbers (12-15%) have been confirmed by several institutions in the US in the last decade, although they come up with higher numbers near the cost than in the central and southern states. They include all Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual people and are usually based on surveys (so it's likely that they're still low because people lie)

You might be surprised to find out that there is an evolutionary advantage to having homosexual relatives, which is why the 'feature' still exists in the gene pool despite what you would expect at first glance.

There's some discussion about these figures, and Christian-linked institutions tend to come up with much lower numbers (some as low as 0.3% gay peole) but as long as the number is higher than zero, my point stands.

> Max, did you hear it, son? Are you gay?

No, but it makes little difference. Gay people drive BMWs too, you know.

> Ok, the consensus seems to be that the world needs some form of organized religion

No, *PEOPLE* need a form of organized religion. The world would be fine without.

> But then again he's God right?

Well, maybe not. If god is omnipotent, then creation is pointless (because he would know the outcome and so negate free will).

So because there is a universe, god cannot be omnipotent.

Is a god that is not-all powerful worthy of your worship?

> Men actually have 1 more rib than Women FYI.

Not unless you count a penis as a rib - and then women still have the same basic structure in the form of a clitoris.

But hey, I have an open mind. Post a scan of your chest x-ray.
(I have a chest x-ray of myself and a CT scan of my wife and I'm not missing any ribs)

> Scientists have proven that the Ark is scientifically possible with all the animals and it floats too

Gen. 6:14-16 specifies the size of the ark: 450 feet long [137.2 meters], 75 feet wide [22.9 meters] and 45 feet high [13.7 meters].

That makes the internal capacity 462686 cubic meters.

If you discount all animals that survive in water, like fish and stuff, about 35,000 animals need to be put in the ark. Which is not impossible.

However, the animals would need to be in some sort of suspended animation to make a 300+ day voyage possible. There is not enough room for food. Plus, if the animals were awake, you've got every person on the ark carrying buckets of excrement 24/7, animals would die from heat exhaustion and the place would be so humid and stink so much no man would endure it. You'd need to feed all the animals and carnivores don't eat grass.

To get the animals to the ark requires devine intervention. God must carry animals across the oceans.

I'm left to wonder how powerful god is if he needs a puny human to bild him a boat. Shouldn't he have been able to just do a format-c and restore from backup.

And then of course, you'd have to let the sheep out first and let them breed for a couple of years before you release the carnivores or everything would go extinct in a couple of days.

> along with the inaccuracy of the carbon dating system.

Ah, no. It's not because the dates come up earlier than allowed by scripture that they are inaccurate!
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      05-17-2007, 03:36 AM   #118
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> he wanted men to take care of women as if they were also born of us

Women can take care of themselves just fine.

IN fact, I think it's more likely god created woman first but some scared little man along the way decided to change that part of genesis.

Why? Because all life starts out as female and only turns male under the influence of a hormone (in the case of humans) or environmental condition (some reptiles).

You can have a set of XY chromosomes typing you as a male and still be female if you have a testosterone deficiency.
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      05-17-2007, 08:35 AM   #119
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Actually, scientists have proven that the Ark is scientifically possible with all the animals and it floats too. Once Again, the bible states a covenant after flood where man and animal can now eat meat. Not all animals were allowed on the ark hense why we dont have dinosaurs today. not to mention the flood explains alot of questions about fossil placments and how they died along with the inaccuracy of the carbon dating system.

You see, this is what I don't get. Why didn't God like dinosaurs? They're pretty freakin badass. They've lived on the earth much longer than humans. Yet they're not discussed at all in the bible. Was Noah a racist? Did he not feel that they were good enough to come on the boat? They were all types of dinosaurs and not a single one let on the boat. I do believe this to be the first act of genocide. Geez, talk about an effective way of eliminating not only a certain species but hundreds of them. Don't you think that's kinda mean for him not to let dinosaurs on the boat? I mean he let cockroaches on the damn boat and didn't think to bring a raptor or a t-rex? I suppose that's what happened to bigfoot to. Was he not christian enough?

The flood doesn't explain anything about fossil placement. Where'd all the water go after the flood? Wouldn't the bodies flow in the direction in which the water drained? And how does the flood explain the large meteor strike in the Guld of Mexico?
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      05-17-2007, 09:22 AM   #120
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a lot of people try to talk to God but unfortunately not all of them get a response. put it this way... you can call your father using a phone, but if you miss a single digit you will never reach your father even if you try to call him for eternity using the same method. finding the real God is really easy. you just have to call on Him the proper way. the proper way takes a little time to figure out for some. some still try to talk to a piece of wood, a piece of masonry, or a piece of plastic molding carved into an image of a random person with a beard and long hair. if you have a son, you might also want him to call out to you with respect and discipline so that you'll respond to his needs.

God DOES NOT allow His followers to murder and rape people. if they do what you mentioned above then its clear that they are not REAL Christians who dont remain in religion but rather in a personal relationship with God. Why? because if they are REAL Christians, they should have followed Christ's teachings. He NEVER apointed the Catholic hierarchy, the people appointed themselves in to the position and made their own declarations and claims and started taking over places. thats why we have protestants now. they are the group who have broken out of the Roman Catholicism. but unfortunately, not all protestants are real Christians. but you dont hear as much crime within the protestant group compared with the Catholics where you can trace their hedious crimes off of history. they even blamed Pontius Pilate in one of their prayers for crucifying Christ when its their empire who wanted it to happen because they were feeling threathened by Christ's claim of being a King.

And God, created Eve out of Adam's rib because He wanted men to treat women with respect and dignity as if they are part of our body. Just like a mother would take care of her child because the child is the flesh of her flesh, he wanted men to take care of women as if they were also born of us. He wanted men to not look down on women and treat them as objects but rather another human being just like them.

What you just said just sounds like a load of excuses to cover up the biggest lie in the world.

Are you Republican?

I have yet to hear about ANYONE having a REAL conversation with God. I'm sorry but it's not documented any where on anything in the world. The bible doesn't count since it was re-written and edited a billion times over. I don't exactly count the image of christ on a piece of toast a message from God either.

Stop blaming Catholics because that's one of the most riduculous things I've been reading in this thread. Vlad the Impaler was Christian and he spent his lifetime fighting off the non-Christian Turkish hordes trying to invade from the middle east.

And how do you define a REAL christian. You use that term alot, so you must have a very good idea of what makes up a REAL christian. Is that someone that picks and chooses what they wish to follow and goes to church during the holidays? Is it someone that does whatever they want and just say "I'll ask for forgiveness later." Or are people considered christians, until they actually do something wrong? Then they're not real christians right? Which one is it? I've come across quite a few people that I would imagine to be real christians. And the things they do are very unethical, both in the business world and personal life.

To me it just seems like a big lie. The Christian community and God will claim all that is good in the world. Everything bad we can blame on a host of others. Those would include but not limited to the devil, the devil's followers, TV evangelists, and non-christians. If it does turn out that they ARE christians then we can just say they're not REAL christians. We're soo rightous and perfect that we can do no wrong. BUT if we do, we can ask for forgiveness and still be considered REAL christians.

I have yet to see a real positive impact from mass religions in our community. Other than the fact that they try really hard to recruit you to their church and if you refuse. Then they treat you "differently". But then again that's not really positive is it.

Is it ok for the church to take money from "part-time" christians? Is it really ethical? Is there a test they give you at the door of church to prove that you're a REAL christian?
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      05-17-2007, 10:23 AM   #121
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I like the alleged fact that there was some sort of a covenant between Noah and "the animals" not to eat each other. Those golden days when even animals could speak!
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      05-17-2007, 10:29 AM   #122
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      05-17-2007, 10:48 AM   #123
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"To me it just seems like a big lie. The Christian community and God will claim all that is good in the world. Everything bad we can blame on a host of others. Those would include but not limited to the devil, the devil's followers, TV evangelists, and non-christians. If it does turn out that they ARE christians then we can just say they're not REAL christians. We're soo rightous and perfect that we can do no wrong. BUT if we do, we can ask for forgiveness and still be considered REAL christians."

Actually I think Christians still do a lot of harm. Everyone Messes up Man we are all HUMAN!!! It is our nature to screw things up. I see the problem you have because you dont look at forgiveness as a true change in a persons heart and soul! I blame no one group or persons for the bad in this world. Shoot we all have our hands in the cookie jar here and have contributed in some way.

"Are you Republican?"

Ohhh thats great!!! just stereotype him so he has no credibility with people with different political view. Dont attack him as a person just deal with his argument.

"Stop blaming Catholics because that's one of the most riduculous things I've been reading in this thread. Vlad the Impaler was Christian and he spent his lifetime fighting off the non-Christian Turkish hordes trying to invade from the middle east."

We don't blame Catholics per se but show them for their true nature. Not to mention Most of the arguments brought up in this thread have been around the Vatican. Well lets see here Vlad did what any ruler would do Defended his lands maybe he took it too far maybe not. Its all up to opinion of the historian.

"I have yet to see a real positive impact from mass religions in our community. Other than the fact that they try really hard to recruit you to their church and if you refuse. Then they treat you "differently". But then again that's not really positive is it."

Well maybe its because you are not looking. Shoot I dont recruit my friends that arent believers because we cant change peoples hearts only God can. Just because I invite you to church does not mean I am recruiting you.

"Is it ok for the church to take money from "part-time" christians? Is it really ethical? Is there a test they give you at the door of church to prove that you're a REAL christian?"

Hmmm does the Church physically take your money and seize your bank accounts? No they dont! Its a personal decision to give that money freely. P.S. Its a good tax break as well


The Rib Question:
I apologize when I said men have one less rib than women I was reffering simply to Adam and not all men. I should have clarified that and it was a mistake.

Look at it this way. Suppose you had an accident, and your right thumb had to be amputated. Would you expect all your children, assuming you have any, to be born lacking a right thumb?
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      05-17-2007, 11:14 AM   #124
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I have avoided this thread because arguing the existence of God may be the most fruitless discussion in the history of man.

Faith is the belief in something for which there is no proof. You cannot prove the existence of God.

I am curious as to how this became a Catholic bashing exercise?

When did Catholics stop being Christians? What is unChristian about Catholicism?
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      05-17-2007, 12:02 PM   #125
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Catholicism is organized Christianity in its pure and original form. All other Christian movements or sects are just attempts to evolve Christianity without an outright abolishment. As to the "bashing exercise," it seems non-coincidental. The Catholic church has unfortunately been engaged in or endorsed many-many violent activities over the past 10 centuries. It's true, the violence has subsided in the recent times. In fact, many people may find pedophilia a non-violent and pleasant activity.
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      05-17-2007, 12:30 PM   #126
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Quote:
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Hmmm does the Church physically take your money and seize your bank accounts? No they dont! Its a personal decision to give that money freely. P.S. Its a good tax break as well
During the medevial times the church changed the rule about priests being able to marry. They would lose the land owned by the priests to their offspring when they died. A priest with no children would end up giving all their possisions back to the church.

They also don't necessarily force you to hand your money over, but I believe it's strongly encouraged. Muslims are "forced" to submit about 10% of their earnings to Al.. Opps I meant to their mosque. To which that money is distributed back to terro... to other muslims that are less fortunate.

During the early practices of Christianity your sins were directly associated with a fee to wash your soul free of sin.

Religious institutions now are trying to incorporate themselves. The Evangelical Christians have lobbyist available to them to put their beliefs on those that really don't care for it.

I've run into quite a few people who were christians and baptists that strongly suggest I go to church with them. Something about saving my soul or whatever. Eitherway, most of them have been quite pushy in their beliefs. Although the baptistist are currently in the lead for being the most forceful.
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      05-17-2007, 01:17 PM   #127
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> Well lets see here Vlad did what any ruler would do Defended his lands maybe he took it too far maybe not.

Vlad, AKA Vlad the Impaler AKA Dracula?

Yeah, well, I think he might have gone over the top a little...

> we cant change peoples hearts only God can.

Sorry: heart transplants....

> does the Church physically take your money and seize your bank accounts?

They've been known to in the past. Nowadays they get a yearly sum from the government, paid for by taxes. Theft by any other name...

> arguing the existence of God may be the most fruitless discussion in the history of man.

Yeah, well, the true believers don't argue. They just repeat the same thing over and over until you go braindead and sign up. That's how a given brand of religion spreads. They prey on the weak and the poor first, then work their way up.

Top down conversion also works, but it's much more expensive.

> You cannot prove the existence of God.

If he'd get off his ass and do some more miracles maybe they could. It's been, like, 1960 years ago since his last (pretty weak) miracle.

A re-run of the parting of waters would go a long way to getting his point across.

But after going all out, pulling every trick in the book for the first few chapters in the bible, he disappears. Maybe he gave up? (Maybe he got kicked out and someone else took over)
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      05-17-2007, 02:20 PM   #128
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1stNew, that's some funny sheets there!!!! Is there one about feeding all those people with a couple of fish and bread?

ut-oh, did I just blaspheme? Probably not, I can laugh at the way some of the stories may look. That's a BIG part of BELIEF.
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      05-17-2007, 02:38 PM   #129
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"During the medevial times the church changed the rule about priests being able to marry. They would lose the land owned by the priests to their offspring when they died. A priest with no children would end up giving all their possisions back to the church."

Sooo true!!!

"During the early practices of Christianity your sins were directly associated with a fee to wash your soul free of sin."

Actually that is Judaism not Christianity. Anything that implies other words is not Christian! Its someone elses agenda!

"I've run into quite a few people who were christians and baptists that strongly suggest I go to church with them. Something about saving my soul or whatever. Eitherway, most of them have been quite pushy in their beliefs. Although the baptistist are currently in the lead for being the most forceful."

Yea, Baptists are probably the worst at pushing their beliefs on people. When a Christian tries to force their beliefs on you they are trying to do everything themselves and often mislead thinking that they know whats best for you. What you believe is your choice. Spreading of the Christianity isnt about forcing our beliefs on you but it is to plant the seed and let you choose for yourself. None of us on here are forcing you to be a christian.

"Yeah, well, the true believers don't argue. They just repeat the same thing over and over until you go braindead and sign up. That's how a given brand of religion spreads. They prey on the weak and the poor first, then work their way up."

LOL right... Maybe its the poor and down trodden that have a real glimpse and true understanding on things. The illustration you just showed is not how its supposed to work but that tends to be the way that people attempt to spread the gospel. We all know this doesnt work!!! Yet Misguided Christians and at one point myself tend to follow this path because its easy and we are people naturally are lazy.
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      05-17-2007, 02:41 PM   #130
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Apocolypse Ponies!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q24AwHV7Mfo
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      05-17-2007, 09:24 PM   #131
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" Not all animals were allowed on the ark hense why we dont have dinosaurs today. not to mention the flood explains alot of questions about fossil placments and how they died along with the inaccuracy of the carbon dating system.
So, just so I'm clear ... you believe that there are no dinosaurs now because they didn't get on the Ark? Did they "space on the date"? or maybe God was punishing them for chasing Fred and Wilma Flintstone? Seriously ... this is supposed to be the basis for "initelligent" discussion?. This is a position I'm supposed to respect?

Also, newsflash - the Flood didn't actually happen. It's a myth ... the story has a message. The bible has a message .... it's not supposed to be taken LITERALLY.

I feel no need to respect nor tolerate intentional ignorance. I will not respect or tolerate mass religion. Its time is over. It needs to be cut out of society like the evil cancer it is.
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      05-17-2007, 09:40 PM   #132
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So, just so I'm clear ... you believe that there are no dinosaurs now because they didn't get on the Ark? Did they "space on the date"? or maybe God was punishing them for chasing Fred and Wilma Flintstone? Seriously ... this is supposed to be the basis for "initelligent" discussion?. This is a position I'm supposed to respect?

Also, newsflash - the Flood didn't actually happen. It's a myth ... the story has a message. The bible has a message .... it's not supposed to be taken LITERALLY.

I feel no need to respect nor tolerate intentional ignorance. I will not respect or tolerate mass religion. Its time is over. It needs to be cut out of society like the evil cancer it is.
i am pretty sure they have historical evidence it did happen? when i went to the grand canyon they said the way it was created was from the flood.... unless the state park system is Christian propaganda....?
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