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      05-16-2007, 10:54 AM   #89
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So do we believe misinformed people unclear of reasons why people get cancer and die that well "god put it there and there must be some sort of higher meaning to why it happened" or do we believe that there are physiologic causes of things and that bad things can happen to good people for no reason?!

Many people tend to ask "why do bad things happen to good people?"

People must understand that a War has been waging since just after creation. When Satan was cast down to the earth he made a Vow to bring us down with him. Why? Because we were given a second chance. Alot of people say "how can god due this?" well lets look at some fundamental reasoning. If you have only Light is there any darkness? and If there isnt any darkness can we truely appreciate the light? God in my opinion and research allows Satan to cast things such as cancer on to us in order to make us falter and turn from God. With some people that I see the devil seems to win but in alot of cases the devil looses and does he lose big! I know alot of people who have a relationship so close to God from either their Wife, Brother, Sister, Mother, Father, Friend... Etc. that have either died from Cancer or lived from it. We have to look at the bigger picture than our own lives and see how many people we effect! If you had a message that would save everyone that you knows Life and you had to personally tell it to each one (friend, family, co worker...etc.) and suddenly you got hit by a truck how many peoples lives could you have saved? thats how much of an affect ONE persons life has to those around them.

Take a look at this video. This is a pretty disturbing and good illustration of what the devil thinks about us and what he would do if he had his way.
http://www.thatvideosite.com/video/3892

Just contemplate why things happen and the Effects it has on others. look at the big picture.

Mike
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      05-16-2007, 12:54 PM   #90
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About a a billion people are Hindus. Are they all going to hell?

If you are christian, why do you not believe in Ganesh?
Because sometimes he looks like an elephant?

Of course, Hindus have this reincarnation thing which will never work unless there's more than one planet with life on it. But reincarnation isn't that different from what the christian god has to offer, maybe you want to reincarnate a few times while you wait for rapture?

> you are a bright person as you see the injustice of other people.
> people like the CRUSADERS are nothing but tyrants who used RELIGION
> as a front. they never were real CHRISTIANS. they called themselves
> Christians but just because they did doesn't mean they really are.

Ok, say I accept that... Why don't the real christians stand up to them? If they really believe what they say they believe?

Christianity as represented by the vatican hierarchy is pretty vile: It condemns millions to death by outlawing condoms. It casts 12-15% of the population into an eternity of damnation because of their sexual preference yet harbors and protects know pedophiles in its own ranks. It excludes 55% of the remaining population from participating fully because they're female. It talks about giving and sharing but preys on the poor and hoards it's wealth. And that's now. Burning women at the stake for whichcraft, slavery, murderous rampages through africa... Organized religion has a lot to answer for.

I used to be a christian. Really! Baptised, private catholic schools, Sunday school, communion, church a couple of times per week, confession, guilt, the whole shebang.

I saw a sliver of truth and slowly managed to free my mind of many years of indoctrination.

Now, I don't know if you know this, but you can have daily anal intercourse with goats on top of a pentagram painted on the floor of a candlelit brothel and be forgiven in the end by the christian god... (The flesh is weak, and all) But there's no forgiveness for denying god.

Tossing him aside is pretty much the only unforgivable sin in christianity...

But I'm not worried. I understand the nature of the universe. I know there are no gods, there is no afterlife or reincarnation. All there is, is this, this one, short life... And that's fine by me!

You can call that a religion of sorts - I've always thought atheism was like tofu is to vegetarians - but at least it doesn't require submission to, and worship of a virtual entity.
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      05-16-2007, 01:08 PM   #91
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> God in my opinion and research allows Satan to cast things such as cancer on to us

They used to say that about smallpox. When's the last time you heard about the devil casting smallpox on anyone?

If you'd said Ebola or something, yeah, but cancer? Honestly, most people survive most types of cancer nowadays.

> With some people that I see the devil seems to win

If I thought for a second the devil existed I'd give him my soul. Seriously. If Creationists are right, all god has done is enable suffering, regardless of who inflicts it.

> look at the big picture.

I think you underestimate the size of this place in which we exist.

Humans are puny little specs of nothingness in the vastness of this universe. God and/or the devil would have to be pretty pathetic to get it's kick out of messing with bits of near-nothingness.

It's like a single atom in a cell of plankton - so small you need a scannin electron microscope to see it - in vastness of the ocean believing you care about it.

Plus, for all you know, god might be a cat-person and people are only around to feed cats.
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      05-16-2007, 01:39 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Max_! View Post

Humans are puny little specs of nothingness in the vastness of this universe.
This is bare truth stripped from religious fairy tales. Why are we here? Is there objective reality? We will never have asnwers to those questions, so let's just go out and enjoy our bimmers while we can.
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      05-16-2007, 01:40 PM   #93
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According to Googlefight, common sense far out ways any concept of mass religion. So I don't know why there's still a debate about this. No matter how many times you click the button, mass religion always losses out to common sense.

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php...2=Common+sense
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      05-16-2007, 02:22 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_! View Post
About a a billion people are Hindus. Are they all going to hell?

If you are christian, why do you not believe in Ganesh?
Because sometimes he looks like an elephant?

Of course, Hindus have this reincarnation thing which will never work unless there's more than one planet with life on it. But reincarnation isn't that different from what the christian god has to offer, maybe you want to reincarnate a few times while you wait for rapture?

> you are a bright person as you see the injustice of other people.
> people like the CRUSADERS are nothing but tyrants who used RELIGION
> as a front. they never were real CHRISTIANS. they called themselves
> Christians but just because they did doesn't mean they really are.

Ok, say I accept that... Why don't the real christians stand up to them? If they really believe what they say they believe?

Christianity as represented by the vatican hierarchy is pretty vile: It condemns millions to death by outlawing condoms. It casts 12-15% of the population into an eternity of damnation because of their sexual preference yet harbors and protects know pedophiles in its own ranks. It excludes 55% of the remaining population from participating fully because they're female. It talks about giving and sharing but preys on the poor and hoards it's wealth. And that's now. Burning women at the stake for whichcraft, slavery, murderous rampages through africa... Organized religion has a lot to answer for.

I used to be a christian. Really! Baptised, private catholic schools, Sunday school, communion, church a couple of times per week, confession, guilt, the whole shebang.

I saw a sliver of truth and slowly managed to free my mind of many years of indoctrination.

Now, I don't know if you know this, but you can have daily anal intercourse with goats on top of a pentagram painted on the floor of a candlelit brothel and be forgiven in the end by the christian god... (The flesh is weak, and all) But there's no forgiveness for denying god.

Tossing him aside is pretty much the only unforgivable sin in christianity...

But I'm not worried. I understand the nature of the universe. I know there are no gods, there is no afterlife or reincarnation. All there is, is this, this one, short life... And that's fine by me!

You can call that a religion of sorts - I've always thought atheism was like tofu is to vegetarians - but at least it doesn't require submission to, and worship of a virtual entity.
Im glad that your mind has opened and steered away from religion. but again, you're missing a big thing here. the vatican tried to represent Christianity but in reality they just used Christianity as a front. their real motive was to control the people and the whole world with their crusades.

to answer your question, real Christian did try to stand up against them. they're the ones who got slaughtered. they followed God when He said, "Not by power, not by might, but by my Spirit."

one example are the three Filipino priests who were hung by the spanish priests during the spanish era. the Filipino priests tried to oppose the spaniards by following the Bible and they were eventually hung.

Spain brought religion to Philippines as a front when their real motive was to colonize. however, when the Americans brought partial freedom, they also brought Christianity when they let us read the Bible and follow it.

to further answer your question, real Christians like the apostles stood up and got slaughtered, beheaded, and stoned. lots of example in new testament.
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      05-16-2007, 02:36 PM   #95
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Exactly ^ That is so true Catholicism was mans attempt at gaining power under the guise of Religion and faith. hense their reasoning that you must tell a priest your sins so he may forgive you for the father. thats total bullshit God is a personal God he wants a relationship with each and everyone of his creations not just with one person. Also no real christian Foundations would put up with child molestation. the Vatican does because its a front for a select few to live the lifes they want free from punishment. And what gives one guy like the pope the authority to say you are going to hell and so are you and you and you. why? because I dont like you and I want to excommunicate you.

Catholicism does not = Christianity
ONLY
Christianity = Christianity
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      05-16-2007, 02:57 PM   #96
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> their real motive was to control the people and the whole world with their crusades.

I know this, but they would not have that power without support from their following. That's what revolutions are about. Y'all can get together and start a new vatican and stop giving money and power to the old one.

However, you'll find that what you call christians are in fact a very diverse group with very diverse interpretations of what it means to be christians. With everyone trying to be holier that thou, it might be hard to agree on a new pope.

Too bad Steve Jobs isn't a christian. He'd be great as a pope!

> real Christians like the apostles stood up and got slaughtered, beheaded, and stoned.

Ok, form an orderly line, I'll get some stones and stuff ;-)

> Why are we here?

Life is an inevitability. Awareness - to ask that question - doesn't change that.

If there had been a god, he wouldn't even have to bother creating the earth and animals and stuff, all he would need to do would be to create a universe that works like ours and life would be inevitable. But keep in mind that life doesn't have to look like you know it.

But a god is not required for a universe to exist or be created.

> Is there objective reality?

Yes, very much so, but due to the nature of your brain and your senses, you cannot perceive reality objectively. That's where the scientific method comes in.
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      05-16-2007, 02:58 PM   #97
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> God he wants a relationship with each and everyone of his creations not just with one person.

Just humans? Or does that include all living organisms?

Come to think of it...How do you know what god wants?

Last edited by Max_!; 05-16-2007 at 03:17 PM.
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      05-16-2007, 03:21 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_! View Post
> God he wants a relationship with each and everyone of his creations not just with one person.

Just humans? Or does that include all living organisms?

Come to think of it...How do you know what god wants?
God just PM'ed me. He asked if I would like to hangout with him and Elvis tonight. HA! I'm closer to God than you guys are neener neener!

But in REALITY God only cares to have relationships with dogs because dog spelt backwards is God... Or is it God spelt backward is dog? AArrrrrrrr
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      05-16-2007, 03:39 PM   #99
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Is there objective reality?

Yes, very much so, but due to the nature of your brain and your senses, you cannot perceive reality objectively. That's where the scientific method comes in.
Here I disagree with you. There is no way to know for certain that anything exists besides our imagination. Including you and this forum. Now, I'm ready to get flamed.
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      05-16-2007, 03:48 PM   #100
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Ok, the consensus seems to be that the world needs some form of organized religion (or whatever it may be called) for an orderly existence. Those who crave power will always invent a theory that will demand worship from others and make it easier to manipulate people. Is that an accurate assessment?
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      05-16-2007, 03:50 PM   #101
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561 your such a hooligan LOL. There are several ways you can tell God wants a personal relationship with us.

1) being he created us. Say you have a son would you ignore him and not care what he was doing?

2) throughout the Bible he pursues man through thick and thin. He even came down here and died one of the worst imaginable deaths for us!!!

3) He has made promises to us. And I would think God is a Being of his word since he has made promises to us before and always come through.

4) Plus many more...
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      05-16-2007, 04:13 PM   #102
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561 your such a hooligan LOL. There are several ways you can tell God wants a personal relationship with us.

1) being he created us. Say you have a son would you ignore him and not care what he was doing?

2) throughout the Bible he pursues man through thick and thin. He even came down here and died one of the worst imaginable deaths for us!!!

3) He has made promises to us. And I would think God is a Being of his word since he has made promises to us before and always come through.

4) Plus many more...
1) God is a Frankenstein monster created by our brain. And many of us simply cannot kill that monster. It has overwhelmed some of us. It's a mental drug worse than heroine.

2) Man created the bible first perhaps as a historical report, which was then conveniently turned into a worship manual. If you ever read the old testament, it's just an intricate and illogical jewish fairy tail with massive chunks of useless info. Also, I would have agreed to die 10 times if I knew that I am immortal. So, I don't see heroism here. It's like falling asleep every night and waking up the next morning.

3) See #1.
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      05-16-2007, 04:15 PM   #103
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It's funny, but as a former Christian, when I am writing these "blasphemous" lines, something deep inside me is kinda cautious as if maybe I'm doing the wrong thing. So, this religious B.S. has stuck so deeply in my own brain that it will probably take many more years to fully erradicate it.
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      05-16-2007, 04:19 PM   #104
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It casts 12-15% of the population into an eternity of damnation because of their sexual preference yet harbors and protects know pedophiles in its own ranks.
Made up numbers are bad, mmmkay?
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shit, if i had that kind of money id buy a gtstreet for monday, an ascari a10 for tuesday, a DBS for wednesday and id just ride jessica alba the rest of the week.
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      05-16-2007, 04:21 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 561design View Post
According to Googlefight, common sense far out ways any concept of mass religion. So I don't know why there's still a debate about this. No matter how many times you click the button, mass religion always losses out to common sense.

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php...2=Common+sense
Let's at least make it fair.
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php...2=common+sense
Religion wins.
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shit, if i had that kind of money id buy a gtstreet for monday, an ascari a10 for tuesday, a DBS for wednesday and id just ride jessica alba the rest of the week.
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      05-16-2007, 04:24 PM   #106
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Made up numbers are bad, mmmkay?
Max, did you hear it, son? Are you gay?
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      05-16-2007, 05:17 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imolazhp_ci View Post
like i said, other than the genetic/hereditary predisposition, dietary habits..... smoking: dietary habit. reflux disease? it stems from dietary habits. colon: dietary habits. gastric: dietary habits. MOST cancers are linked to poor dietary habits and putting unnecessary toxins in your body. so show me where i was wrong before you call me dumb. because based off what you said... all you did was solidify my statement. and by new i obviously didn't mean new as in its existence, i meant as far as our medical understanding of it. if you couldn't grasp that maybe you are the one that is "dumb." although i am not so brazen as you to make that judgment.

See this is where you are misunderstood, and misunderstood my post.

The genetic defects are necessary for the cancer.

Smoking is not a dietary habit - it's a result of stupidity.

Colon cancer, like I said, occurs with a genetic predisposition. Those with that predisposition can get it, and those with the predisposition that heavily intake some foods will get it more frequently then another that doesn't.

Gastric cancer is due to a genetic predisposition, again. People get it without the diet that I mentioned, but the diet that I mentioned will make it a more frequent occurrence.

If you knew the pathophysiology of GERD, you wouldn't have mentioned diet.

Regardless, you have only taken the ones that I said have a small relation to diet and blew it out of proportion.


And since you returned on the defensive without evidence of such, just your non-medically inspired personal opinion, why don't you give us more support after you make it through medical school and watch someone die of cancer? How about that?

Then ask god why he put it there.

Why don't you talk about the common killers in women, breast, ovarian, lung and cervical cancer?! How about those. I clearly didn't say one thing about food there.


Just because you think something is the way it seems doesn't make you right. Your ignorance on the situation is quite high, so unless you're an oncologist, or planning on being one, save your magazine medical jargon.
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      05-16-2007, 05:58 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bullitt5897 View Post
561 your such a hooligan LOL. There are several ways you can tell God wants a personal relationship with us.

1) being he created us. Say you have a son would you ignore him and not care what he was doing?

2) throughout the Bible he pursues man through thick and thin. He even came down here and died one of the worst imaginable deaths for us!!!

3) He has made promises to us. And I would think God is a Being of his word since he has made promises to us before and always come through.

4) Plus many more...

I dunno. I talk to my son alot and he responds to me. When I was little I tried to talk to God. But that mofo never answered me back. I've asked him all sorta stuff like...

"God, Why do you let your followers murder and rape us? Why do you let your Catholic priests sodomize our precious children? I think it's safe to say that we really don't like this. Isn't your Catholic hierarchy hand chosen by you from the top down? Are you afraid to admit to making a mistake in your choices? Can you please admit the mistake and let our children grow up in a normal, ethical and safe environment? "

Or

"God, Did you really make Eve from one of Adam's ribs? Why didn't you make her from dust just like Adam? And, why do men and women have the same number of ribs if you stole one from Adam to make Eve?"

Or

"Was physics different when Noah built the ark? I mean, seriously... how did he get all the animals from all over the world... and the dinosaurs, etc. on that boat? How did he get penguins to the Middle East? How did he get them back after the big flood? Why didn't the dinosaurs eat all the sheep?"

***Those questions were actually taken from http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/q...s_for_god.html***

I have yet to hear back from God in regards to any of these. However, it could be that I have aluminum foil wrapped over my head to keep the aliens from listening to my thoughts. Maybe that's what's keeping God's voice outta my head as well.

I don't really follow the bible. Considering that there have been soooo many versions written by illiterate scribes. It can't possibly be right. I mean seriously, would you let a kid who doesn't know math do your taxes? Not to mention people from various regions would edit and put in their own little tales into the bible. Oh yeah there was also only one illiterate scribe per village so there really wasn't anyone there to proof read his work. I know Mr. King James (Brown?!?!) tried to clear it up for us by locking a buncha guys in a room and threatening to kill them if they don't sort it out. But I'm still not convinced.

As for the promises. There have been many more that have come and gone, that never came true. It seems pretty random to be honest. I don't know the last time ever in the history of many that God has actually shown or proven himself to us. But then again he's God right? What does a bad ass mofo like God have to prove to anyone?
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      05-16-2007, 06:02 PM   #109
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What a hooligan!
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      05-16-2007, 06:16 PM   #110
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"God, Did you really make Eve from one of Adam's ribs? Why didn't you make her from dust just like Adam? And, why do men and women have the same number of ribs if you stole one from Adam to make Eve?"

Men actually have 1 more rib than Women FYI.

"Was physics different when Noah built the ark? I mean, seriously... how did he get all the animals from all over the world... and the dinosaurs, etc. on that boat? How did he get penguins to the Middle East? How did he get them back after the big flood? Why didn't the dinosaurs eat all the sheep?"

Actually, scientists have proven that the Ark is scientifically possible with all the animals and it floats too. Once Again, the bible states a covenant after flood where man and animal can now eat meat. Not all animals were allowed on the ark hense why we dont have dinosaurs today. not to mention the flood explains alot of questions about fossil placments and how they died along with the inaccuracy of the carbon dating system.
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