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      05-15-2007, 03:54 PM   #67
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Since we touched on this... let me stray from the topic for a second...

I think that the MAJOR feature that distinguishes humans from animals is ability to laugh and understand humor, which essentially translates to an understanding of a futility of life and still looking positively at that. As long as any religion accepts and welcomes jokes even about the fundamentals of it, I'm ok with that religion.
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      05-15-2007, 03:54 PM   #68
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I appreciate your good temper! I'm sorry man, I'm just in a sarcastic mood today. No personal offense was intended.
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      05-15-2007, 05:50 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by ATG View Post
Since we touched on this... let me stray from the topic for a second...

I think that the MAJOR feature that distinguishes humans from animals is ability to laugh and understand humor, which essentially translates to an understanding of a futility of life and still looking positively at that. As long as any religion accepts and welcomes jokes even about the fundamentals of it, I'm ok with that religion.
Alot of church systems or brands as you put it, are laughable. Church systems are businesses and most have gotten away from the Bible and teach their traditions/man's traditions. Man's word/traditions void the word of God. If you study the Bible, you can see God has humor too. (by the way you mentioned the Bible was written by man, however, the holy spirit influenced/authored what was written by mans hand) Church systems, in my view, make it very difficult for non-belivers. I have studied the Bible not church traditions,for many years. The Bible is very different than what many churches teach and is facinating when you understand what is really being said.
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      05-15-2007, 06:06 PM   #70
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Since we touched on this... let me stray from the topic for a second...

I think that the MAJOR feature that distinguishes humans from animals is ability to laugh and understand humor, which essentially translates to an understanding of a futility of life and still looking positively at that. As long as any religion accepts and welcomes jokes even about the fundamentals of it, I'm ok with that religion.
Judaism. Jews are probably far more ciritical of themselves than any other religion I can think of. I want to know how many "Atheists" have actually studied religion. I am Jewish, I grew up Jewish, when I was 12 years old I walked into my Rabbi's office one day and said "Rabbi, I'm about to have my Bar Mitzvah....but I have a question, If god created everything...who created God?" he told me to study on my own because nothing he could tell me would prove anything and that that question is what is the main question of faith. For 5 years, I read the Bible, The Quran, Christianity, The Book of Mormon, etc...pretty much every modern religion you can think of. I found my answers back at Judaism on my own research and help with my Father who has study theology his entire life and I would bet money that he knows more about every religion than anyone you will ever meet... most college professors and leaders of churches included. In fact, he once had a conversation with a Christian friends Pastor and the Pastor took a leave of absence to reevaluate his faith. My point is, for me, Judaism was best.... it is based more on God, How to lead you life as a good person, and how to help others, it has it's flaws as any religion does but none are based on it's teachings, they are based in it's administration, such as Orthodox Jews, some still segregate men and women in worship which i find ridiculous. I don't like Christianity because it's based on proselytization, which I think is ridiculous. Judaism completely denounces proselytization. It doesn't have all the preachy miracle brewhaha that Christianity does. And the one thing I never understood... Christians believe they follow Jesus, and the Bible says to live in his image... if that's the case? Why be a christian? shouldn't you be a Jew?

EDIT: Also, can someone tell me why christians believe everything in the bible has some deep interpretation or some miracle and hidden meaning. I believe God is rational and if he is presenting us a teaching to learn from it's going to be that. A textbook in essence. It's not a sudouku puzzle that needs deconstruction. its a literal teaching.
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      05-15-2007, 06:43 PM   #71
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Welcome to the thread. So, who created God? You spent 5 years on it, so tell us, the mortals. Be honest and concise.
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      05-15-2007, 06:59 PM   #72
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Welcome to the thread. So, who created God? You spent 5 years on it, so tell us, the mortals. Be honest and concise.
Nobody created God. I'm not here to bash you, I disagree with your faith (whether or not you want to believe it, Atheism IS a religion), equally as you disagree with mine and I hope we can both respect each other equally and attempt to proceed discussing this topic intelligently. Again, who created God? Nobody. Faith is defined as belief in something for which there is no proof. Believe me, this is harder for me given my education than many, I am a major in international political economy and a minor in philosophy. The entire premise of philosophy is basically to ruin everything's meaning, ironically, it's original intention was to apply meaning to everything. Faith is a choice, it isn't something to be learned, it isn't something you are born with, faith, plain and simple, is a choice. Whether or not you choose to believe in God is between yourself and God. For me, I don't understand Atheism, it sounds silly but I can't look at a sunset, or the ocean, or myself... and believe all of it is arbitrary. However, Agnostics, I am fine with... I feel as long as you believe in my God, I don't care how you worship him, if God is rational, he is not going to condemn a Mormon for accepting a third testament, if God is rational he is not going to condemn a fanatical Christians for believing in replacement theology, nor will he condemn Muslims for a misinterpretation of teachings. God created us, he knows our flaws, we aren't perfect, we all know that, and so does God. My point is, as long as you live believe in God, and live a life of purpose and moral character, I really don't think God gives a shit about how, or why, you accept him. At that, if he does, then send me to hell because I don't want to be a servant to an irrational God.
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      05-15-2007, 07:06 PM   #73
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Religion is complex. As far as a deeper meaning, there are some, the Bible tells us all things, one has to read the whole Bible to understand other parts. Example, Christ will return with a sword. But if you read the whole Bible it is said the Word of God is the sword that cuts both ways. So there is a deeper meaning as to what the sword is when Christ returns.
As far as Judaism/Christians, the Christians wanted to seperate themselves from the Jewish religion. Mistakes were made. Easter is a great example. Ishtar(Eastre/Easter) is the goddess of fertility, she was worshiped with eggs and bunnys.(i think you all know what bunnys do) This celebration was at the time of the spring equinox the same time as Passover and the Crucificition. Im Christian (if you go back to the manuscripts the word Easter is not there its Pascha in the Greek which means Passover. It was imporperly translated into English because of traditions of man) and I celebrate Passover. So, yes, Christians, if they would study, would find Judaism much more Bibically accurate.

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      05-15-2007, 07:08 PM   #74
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bravo!

So, all Europeans and other people who lived before Christ's birth went straight to hell because they did not follow the new testament?

nope. religion doesn't give anyone salvation. its their personal relationship with God that saves people. you can be in any denomination but still be saved.

religion itself is a big chaos. if salvation is what you want, you don't need religion. you only need it in paper/forms to identify yourself. you can be religious but still be bound to hell.
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      05-15-2007, 07:16 PM   #75
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Religion is complex. As far as a deeper meaning, there are some, but the Bible tells us all things, one has to read the whole Bible to understand other parts. Example, Christ will return with a sword. But if you read the whole Bible it is said the Word of God is the sword that cuts both ways. So there is a deeper meaning as to what the sword is when Christ returns.
As far as Judaism/Christians, the Christians wanted to seperate themselves from the Jewish religion. Mistakes were made. Easter is a great example. Ishtar is the goddess of fertility, she was worshiped with eggs and bunnys.(i think you all know what bunnys do) This celebration was at the time of the spring equinox the same time as Passover and the Crucificition. Im Christian (if you go back to the manuscripts the word Easter is not there its Pascha in the Greek which means Passover. It was imporperly translated into English because of traditions of man) and I celebrate Passover. So, yes, Christians, if they would study, would find Judaism much more Bibically accurate.
Good man. I have friends who are the exact same way. My mother actually grew up in a Assembly of God Church in Arkansas but converted after she met my dad. Now her family practices all Jewish Holidays.
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      05-15-2007, 07:21 PM   #76
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Welcome to the thread. So, who created God? You spent 5 years on it, so tell us, the mortals. Be honest and concise.
All the Bible says is: I am that I am. Beyond that, if this earth was one degree off the present orbit, we could not exist. Did you know H2O is a strange liquid, its one of the only frozen liquids that floats. If it did not have that strange trait all water life would freeze and die. There are millions of things that if they were not as perfectly placed (i believe by our creator) as they are we would not exist.
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      05-15-2007, 07:33 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by ATG
bravo!

So, all Europeans and other people who lived before Christ's birth went straight to hell because they did not follow the new testament?



I wanted to answer this question above: According to the Bible, Christ resurected in 3days. It also says Christs spirit visited the souls(thoes 3days) that left the flesh body before the crucifiction to offer the same redemption that all would be offered after the crucifiction. God is always fair.
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      05-15-2007, 08:25 PM   #78
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God is always fair.

He didn’t seem very fair while I watched my mother die of cancer. And save the me Job bit. Bad, even horrific, things happen to good people. And good things happen to bad people.

And I see “redemption” as a “get out of jail free” card. It is no accident that Jews, agnostics and atheists are less common in prison than they are in the general population—there is something to be said for a world view that allows for no passes on personal responsibility.

But I hope that we are all wrong. Justice would be served if right now Jerry is doing a lot of explaining to a maternal deity.
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      05-15-2007, 08:39 PM   #79
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He didn’t seem very fair while I watched my mother die of cancer. And save the me Job bit. Bad, even horrific, things happen to good people. And good things happen to bad people.

And I see “redemption” as a “get out of jail free” card. It is no accident that Jews, agnostics and atheists are less common in prison than they are in the general population—there is something to be said for a world view that allows for no passes on personal responsibility.

But I hope that we are all wrong. Justice would be served if right now Jerry is doing a lot of explaining to a maternal deity.
i'm sorry about your mother, but you can't blame that on god. there are many things which can be attributed to the rise of cancerous cells in the body, most revolve around poor dietary habits and depression which diminish your immune system. other times its simply hereditary and nothing can be done. but remember, cancer is a relatively new thing. furthermore, i don't quite understand you underlined statement. please elaborate.
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      05-15-2007, 09:02 PM   #80
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He didn’t seem very fair while I watched my mother die of cancer. And save the me Job bit. Bad, even horrific, things happen to good people. And good things happen to bad people.

And I see “redemption” as a “get out of jail free” card. It is no accident that Jews, agnostics and atheists are less common in prison than they are in the general population—there is something to be said for a world view that allows for no passes on personal responsibility.

But I hope that we are all wrong. Justice would be served if right now Jerry is doing a lot of explaining to a maternal deity.
I agree with Imolazhp ci above. God, again, gives us free will. He gives us guides to health, dont eat Swine(cleaners, not meant for food) Shrimp, lobster, catfish etc are all cleaners not meant for food. But, people eat these things anyway and we pollute, process our foods, use harmfull chemicals on our farms and in our homes. God is superNATURAL. Natural is the key word. WE pollute our world and bodys, NOT God. As far as Repentance, God is a cardio knower, knows your heart, if you did something and are truly sorry and cease from continuing that behavior he forgives. If you did something and you are not sorry and do not change then you did not repent and there is no forgivness. Sounds fair to me!
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      05-15-2007, 10:43 PM   #81
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i'm sorry about your mother, but you can't blame that on god. there are many things which can be attributed to the rise of cancerous cells in the body, most revolve around poor dietary habits and depression which diminish your immune system. other times its simply hereditary and nothing can be done. but remember, cancer is a relatively new thing. furthermore, i don't quite understand you underlined statement. please elaborate.
I see no basis to say that cancer is a “new thing”. It is increasing only because our life spans are increasing and cancer becomes more common in older populations. Which does not change that fact that is a bad way for good people to die.

My underlined statement means what it says. I see one of the evils of both Christianity and Islam being their lack of accountability for how one leads one’s life. Under these dogmas you can do whatever, too whoever, and as long as you repent/find Jesus/convert before you die then all is forgiven. I call . The “devil made me do it” doesn’t work either.

I am an atheist/agnostic/deist—define it as you will. I am responsible for how I lead my life, the good the bad and the ugly. And the bad and ugly don’t go away because I had a spiritual moment. Or a walk on the beach with Billy Graham before starting a political career.
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      05-15-2007, 11:40 PM   #82
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I like your sincerety and I wish every Christian would be as peaceful as you are. Whatever the labels are, if all people learn to accept all other different people around them there will be "paradise" on earth. This is so easy!!! But, ego, greed, and fear always stand in the way.
and RELIGION too.

the person you just replied to doesn't really live in religion. see how peaceful of a person he is by having a personal relationship with Christ.

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> she is buddhist and I am christian

I'm truly happy you've found a way to deal with your childhood trauma.
But what makes you more right than her?

At least in buddhism you don't have the power-hungry, money-grabbing, warmongering, murderous, deceiving pedophiles you find so often throughout the history of Christianity.

Sorry, your particular brand of god might be real and perhaps even worthy of worship, but his ground crew sux bigtime.
the ground crew you are referring to that are part of the history of Christianity aren't HIS real ground crew at all. they never followed the foot steps of the apostles in the Bible which are His real ground crew. they never really brought Christianity with them. they brought RELIGION to places as a front to take on people.

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> into what christians truely believe instead of the actions of "catholic priests"

Catholic priests are the ones you're supposed to be looking up to for guidance. If god can't even keep his own house in order...

Religious people believe whatever they want to believe. It's an excuse to make their wrongs righteous and to cope with being wronged.

The fiercest believers are poor and mistreated and the worst tyrants do their slaughtering in god's name.

Look, honestly, I generally don't get into discussions like these. There's no point. You will always believe there is a god. You might change religion but your mind cannot cope with the absence of a god so anything I say becomes proof for a god in your mind. (Maybe it's god testing your faith!)
you are a bright person as you see the injustice of other people. people like the CRUSADERS are nothing but tyrants who used RELIGION as a front. they never were real CHRISTIANS. they called themselves Christians but just because they did doesn't mean they really are.

and GOD will never put the Catholic house in order because it was never His house. never been and never will. its a house of statues.

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Interesting thought, UncleWede. And yes, let's keep the thread close to the original theme. So the question was why do we need mass religion as opposed to individual delusions, hallucinations, and fears. is mass religion as necessary as a government? Can people behave well if they have nothing to fear in the "afterlife?" Why mass religions are trying to supress human sexuality? There are just examples ...
RELIGION is not important to have an order.
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      05-16-2007, 03:00 AM   #83
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There wil be no winners in the argument about A God vs Science - You believe in one or the other or become agnostic!
What's the point in debating this God vs no God?
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      05-16-2007, 05:48 AM   #84
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Why be a christian? shouldn't you be a Jew?

EDIT: Also, can someone tell me why christians believe everything in the bible has some deep interpretation or some miracle and hidden meaning. I believe God is rational and if he is presenting us a teaching to learn from it's going to be that. A textbook in essence. It's not a sudouku puzzle that needs deconstruction. its a literal teaching.
I don't know about other denominations, but I was raised a Baptist and we do believe that the Lord gave us the Bible as a guide on how to live our lives and I believe that many teachings in the Bible should be taken literally. There are things that need interpretation, but for the most part we take it literally. If there's something we don't understand and feel needs some interpretation we first pray about it and ask the Lord to show us what a particular verse or passage means.

Why be a Christian? Why not be a Jew? Well ...Judaism and Christianity are closely related, we both believe in the same God...that there is only one God, among many other things. The one difference is that Jews do not believe Christ to be the Messiah, rather a teacher. That is the biggest and most important difference between the faiths. I believe that Jesus Christ was the Messiah and not just a teacher, b/c of this belief and acceptance and according to John 3:16 I know that I am saved from the penalty of sin - separation from God for eternity, in hell.

I have many Jewish friends and that is my understanding - I have not studied judaism...and I have not studied other religions in any significant way, i feel no need to. I know what the Bible says is true and believe it, period.

Edit: In the grand scheme of things "religion" means very little. I do not associate with the word at all really. I do not consider myself a part of any religion, rather I have a personal relationship with Christ and that is all that matters. Things are becoming so vague and disconnected with all the various "religions" popping up all over...the foundation and fundamental roots of Christianity (followers of Christ) are being lost.

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      05-16-2007, 06:58 AM   #85
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All the Bible says is: I am that I am. Beyond that, if this earth was one degree off the present orbit, we could not exist. Did you know H2O is a strange liquid, its one of the only frozen liquids that floats. If it did not have that strange trait all water life would freeze and die. There are millions of things that if they were not as perfectly placed (i believe by our creator) as they are we would not exist.


A frozen liquid is called a solid. That's why we leave science to those that can understand it.

H2O is not a strange liquid, it is actually very much understood. It has a lot of cool features due to its hydrogen bonds, which will soon help to fuel vehicles to produce no emissions in the not too distant future.


Check out this simply put article about how these formations of electrons, protons, and neutrons interact with each other to explain why stuff floats.

http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemis.../icefloats.htm


And if your shit floats, you have too much fat in your diet, just FYI, has nothing to do with god either. That can be loosely extrapolated to the whole hydrogen bond thing anyway...


If you want to ask something, it's not who created or what created water or any substance, that is easily explained. It is the question of what is the source of the elements of the periodic table and their origin. That is the right question, and one that will be difficult to explain - really your only bargaining chip.
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      05-16-2007, 07:14 AM   #86
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most revolve around poor dietary habits and depression which diminish your immune system. other times its simply hereditary and nothing can be done. but remember, cancer is a relatively new thing. furthermore, i don't quite understand you underlined statement. please elaborate.

No, you're just dumb. Report facts on things, or just don't talk about things that you don't know about.

Most of cancer is not revolved around poor dietary habits. It depends on the type of cancer, where the cancer is, and its origin.

For instance:

Lung Cancer - various types - inhalation of toxins: smoking, asbestos, etc. Also enzyme deficiencies are a cause.
Cervical Cancer - various types - most common and most aggressive due to a virus, the Human Papilloma virus
Esophageal Cancer - various types - due to reflux disease and genetic predisposition
Thyroid Cancer - many types - due to prior irradiation and genetic predisposition
Colon Cancer - genetic predisposition & in westerners with high red meat diets
Gastric Cancer - genetic predisposition & in asians with an eastern diet high in pickled foods
Breast and Ovarian - genetic predisposition and in the jewish population.

And also, almost every cancer can be associated with cigarette smoking, secondary to metastasis (generally except breast and ovarian) but include Liver, renal, brain, bone, lung, and pancreas.


There are very good reasons why people with close family members with cancer too get cancer, due to genetic predispositions. Very few if any are directly linked to diet.

Get your facts straight. There's not a genetic predisposition because god put it there, but rather because we retain DNA from our family members, so therefore they have similar probabilities for mutation into cancer.

And no, cancer isn't new. Cancer is newly diagnosed. If we were able to dig up a whole lot of dead people within this century dying of "natural causes" or "unexplained causes" prior to the 1970s we'd see a whole lot of cancer.



So do we believe misinformed people unclear of reasons why people get cancer and die that well "god put it there and there must be some sort of higher meaning to why it happened" or do we believe that there are physiologic causes of things and that bad things can happen to good people for no reason?!
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      05-16-2007, 07:55 AM   #87
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No, you're just dumb. Report facts on things, or just don't talk about things that you don't know about.

Most of cancer is not revolved around poor dietary habits. It depends on the type of cancer, where the cancer is, and its origin.

For instance:

Lung Cancer - various types - inhalation of toxins: smoking, asbestos, etc. Also enzyme deficiencies are a cause.
Cervical Cancer - various types - most common and most aggressive due to a virus, the Human Papilloma virus
Esophageal Cancer - various types - due to reflux disease and genetic predisposition
Thyroid Cancer - many types - due to prior irradiation and genetic predisposition
Colon Cancer - genetic predisposition & in westerners with high red meat diets
Gastric Cancer - genetic predisposition & in asians with an eastern diet high in pickled foods
Breast and Ovarian - genetic predisposition and in the jewish population.
like i said, other than the genetic/hereditary predisposition, dietary habits..... smoking: dietary habit. reflux disease? it stems from dietary habits. colon: dietary habits. gastric: dietary habits. MOST cancers are linked to poor dietary habits and putting unnecessary toxins in your body. so show me where i was wrong before you call me dumb. because based off what you said... all you did was solidify my statement. and by new i obviously didn't mean new as in its existence, i meant as far as our medical understanding of it. if you couldn't grasp that maybe you are the one that is "dumb." although i am not so brazen as you to make that judgment.
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      05-16-2007, 10:34 AM   #88
bullitt5897
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My underlined statement means what it says. I see one of the evils of both Christianity and Islam being their lack of accountability for how one leads one’s life. Under these dogmas you can do whatever, too whoever, and as long as you repent/find Jesus/convert before you die then all is forgiven. I call . The “devil made me do it” doesn’t work either.

This statement is false just due to your lack of knowledge about Christianity. Nothing against you but you probably didnt know this. God knows our hearts and desires. When we truely "repent" or ask for forgiveness it is then that God forgives us but, if by some chance you are looking for that "Get out of Jail Card" you are shit out of luck. the bible says: there will be people who will say at the gates of heaven "But Lord I preached in your name, I did all these good deeds." and the lord will reply "depart from me I do not know you". Its Our hearts and souls that must change to constitute salvation. If someone is truely saved they strive to become closer to God and have an intimate relationship with him. It is this behavior that shows if someone truely believes. Most people who see death coming Say "im sorry Lord please forgive me but, if their hearts and souls dont mimic that as well then they are shit out of luck".
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