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      11-26-2007, 10:37 AM   #573
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Not that I am taking sides or that I am a non-believer...but the approach that hks786 is taking is a proof by induction with a false assumption, which is really not the proof...
Not knowing how the universe started and assuming the God or whatever started it to prove why you believe is really not a proof...

However, both of you (e90im & hks) have interesting points. Scientifically, it cannot be proven and so far no one has been able to prove either one...

As for the balances on earth (air, gravity, temp...) that is a pure evolution, proven without a doubt -- many years ago, humans and/or life did not exist on Earth until the conditions developed... And many (or not that many) years from now, the same will happen, where the conditions will again become less faforable for the life existence on Earth...

Do you believe there is life on other "planet" out there, outside of our system? Was there a life on other planets in our system some years ago? We seem to be getting some proofs of that, and again, evolutionary changes forced those life-forms to disappear...

Life & Death... Again, scientifically, death is plain simple occurence. Biblically, or the way some of us may believe, it is more complex... But, it is unclear and not proven that anything that happened on this planet has anything to do beyond simple scientific laws...

Quran, bible...are the lines written and modified by people, they do not prove anything, they create either a group that believe and follow them, or the opposite...
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      11-26-2007, 12:14 PM   #574
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i
As for the balances on earth (air, gravity, temp...) that is a pure evolution, proven without a doubt -- many years ago, humans and/or life did not exist on Earth until the conditions developed... And many (or not that many) years from now, the same will happen, where the conditions will again become less favourable for the life existence on Earth...
Hmm, actually it's not been proven You see the problem with the evolution theory goes wayyy back to the very first living thing. How did IT come into being? Darwin himself knew this could never be explained. Perhaps he thought things could just spontaneously come into being, i.e. "spontaneous generation" which was a popular theory many many years ago.

People used to think that living things could come into being from non-living matter. People thought frogs emerged from mud and that maggots would come into existence from rotting meat. These days we would laugh at such claims. Even in the 20th Century Russian biologist Alexander Oparin attempted to explain how this first living cell came into existence and concluded that he didn’t know.

I'll repeat what I'm trying to point out:

- There is no logical explanation that would tell us how the very first thing came into existence because even it would require a cause! And that cause would have to be the result of another cause etc.

- The above proves that spontaneous existence is not possible and means there is only one explanation: it was created. Be realistic, there can only ever be 2 choices. Either it was created or uncreated and to say it was uncreated is highly illogical and won’t agree with science.

That pretty much ends the argument but let’s look at what you said about the balances. There are many many balances that can never be documented because we'll never discover them! But some of these balances have been traced back to the Big Bang, i.e. the beginning of the universe. Therefore when you say balances are as a result of evolution which started spontaneously, I feel that it fails badly.

One of the very first balances was the rate of expansion - a precise rate that led to the universe being created. If it was increased by 1 part in a billion billion then the universe would collapse before it reached its present size OR splatter out in every direction never to be united again. Therefore, it's easy to see that there is no possibility that this big bang happened and was coincidentally the PRECISE rate of expansion needed to form the universe. We can see that 1 part in a billion billion is how sensitive a calculation we're talking about.

Even though we can now see that a random occurence could NOT produce this rate of expansion so perfectly composed which puts the Darwin theory to a halt, let's go further. In Darwins day we didnt have the same microscopes that tell us more about cells. They were simple things in Darwins day but now we know the truth about how complex and intricate they are. To this day, NOONE has been able to produce a SINGLE living cell from non-living matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i
Quran, bible...are the lines written and modified by people, they do not prove anything, they create either a group that believe and follow them, or the opposite...
Well that's a whole new argument. I could show you how the oral and written transmission of the Quran preserved it but let's not go there yet
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      11-26-2007, 02:30 PM   #575
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Firstly, where did the universe come from? nothing comes from nothing so it's completely impossible for the universe to just spontaneously come into existence. Those who question God's existence also question who his creator is, because we mostly agree that EVERYTHING has a creator. So who created the universe? or should I ask - what was the cause for the universe to exist?

Of course we can say "we donít know what the cause of universe was, but it came into existence due to a previous cause, but we can never know what the first cause was because it's outwith our science and knowledge". However, I feel that this explanation fails quite badly because how can there ever be a first cause? Even the first cause would need a cause to come into existence. Do you see where I'm going? I could forever ask ďwhat came before that?Ē


So what is your explanation?

My explanation is very simple. I DONíT KNOW. But we have our best people working on it . They are called scientists, not evangelical brainwashing religious nutjobs. Just like we didnít know Avogadroís number and Plankís constant. It takes time, those are hard questions. But science doesnít give up. You do.

As soon as you donít understand something, you call Allah for help. That is incredibly lazy way of thinking. Science is a self correcting machinery that welcomes challenge and new ideas. But new theories must withstand incredible scrutiny from it's peers and anybody that wants to take a swing at it. You religious people, just sit down and eat B.S. You are lazy, yet you are more than willing to enjoy advencements that science brings you.



My explanation is obviously Allah because I'm a Muslim. No, I'm not trying to "fill the gap" so to speak but is it possible that there is a supreme creator that caused everything come into existence? Here's a challenge for you: Can you prove that any living thing has come from nothing? I really mean nothing. You canít count the atmosphere around it or even the smallest atom. Can you prove that anything came from completely NOTHING?


AGAIN, WHAT YOU JUST SAID DOES NOT PROVE EXISTANCE OF YOUR SKYDADY.

Thatís why theories such as evolution fail so badly.

This is news to me? It worked fine last time I checked. Where was this published?

No one can prove that livings cells can come to exist out of inanimate matter and thatís why itís just a theory. I would say itís one that fails rather badly too, just like the one that suggests the Big Bang was a random accident/event.

There are multiple theories, all based on vigorous research.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_life
Again, as soon as science stumbles on hard issues, you call god. God not required, patience, time and critical thinking are.


Look at the complicated laws and systems around you; laws of physics, perfect balances, chemistry, biology etc. There's things we canít even see with our own two eyes, we have to use microscopes and telescopes. There are things we arenít even aware of, things we are still learning! By no means is science complete...

I agree with this statement 100%. Good job.

Hereís something to prove what Iím trying to say. All those years ago when the Big Bang occurred, the universe as you know was expanding. The rate of expansion was actually very sensitive and scientists say that if it was increased by 1 part in a billion billion then the universe would collapse before it reached its present size OR splatter out in every direction never to be united again. Is this a coincidence?

We donít know Ö.YET.


I think not, and your mind knows it too.


Please do not tell me what I know. Indoctrination doesnít work on me.


Letís look at more ďcoincidencesĒ. The size of the sun, the wavelength of its rays & the distance from the Earth is perfectly suited to support human life. The same applies to the Earthís magnetic field and weather. I canít even begin to list all of these things, they are just too many.

This is an incredibly egoistic approach. You think that everything is like it is just because of us? Or to be more specific, because of muslims? Have you considered that itís the other way around? That we evolved and adopted to present conditions. Isnít that a much more elegant and simple assumption. No need for creator hypothesis.

Look how true the Quranís words are. Thatís not where it ends though. The Big Bang is mentioned in the Quran 1400 years ago despite it being a recent discovery. Until fairly recently, we thought the moonís light was its own but the Quran taught 1400 years ago that it is actually reflected light. In 1597 we learned that the world wasnít flat, the Quran too teaches this 1400 years ago and compares it to an Ostrich egg...

Check your facts broÖEratosthenes of Alexandria in third century B.C. proved that earth is round and it calculated itís circumference to be 40,000 km. He used a stick, a shadow and basic trigonometry. He also used his brain.


Not too long ago they used to teach in schools that the sun revolved but didnít rotate around its own axis. The Quran disagrees with this 1400 years ago and so does modern science. In 1580 we learned about the water cycle yet the Quran speaks about it at least 12 times 1400 years ago. Who could know ALL of this plus a lot more except the creator of the universe?

Your facts are completely wrong. I donít have time to school you. Do more research, then report back.
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      11-26-2007, 02:38 PM   #576
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I could go even deeper and explain WHY Islam allows polygamy but I think that would be too much to discuss at this point. What Iím really trying to point out is that conflict of interest and ďmoralityĒ is part of human nature, so your question is flawed in that way. I agree that itís important to be ďgoodĒ but me and you clearly have different ideas about what ďgoodĒ is, so who will decide


Well in your case Allah decides what is good. In my case, I do.

The point youíre missing is: Why are worship, surrender and submission more important to your god than other things? Good or bad doesnít matter.

Simple answer: So that your religion can control, brainwash you. To have a obedient flock. Freethinkers are not welcomed in any religion that I know of. You mustnít question. Just worship and shut the f&^k up.
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      11-26-2007, 03:06 PM   #577
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Here's some more of these delicate balances in the Earth to think about:

- The Earth has a mixture of 77% nitrogen/21% oxygen/1% carbon dioxide in the atmosphere which is PERFECTLY suited to human, animal & plant life. You should know that if the oxygen level was increased then we would suffer damage yet if the level was decreased we would have respiratory problems and food we eat wouldnt be converted to energy. I'm sure you can imagine that there is a reason for the other gases and their respective proportions.

- If the mass of the earth were a little less, then its gravitational force would be insufficient and the atmosphere would be dispersed in space. If its mass were a little greater, then the gravitational force would be too much and the earth would absorb all gasses in the atmosphere.


This is a well known Goldilocks Zone. But I’m glad that you are using research and attemting a debate with facts instead of quoting scripture.



The creation of these delicate proportions and balances in the sky is mentioned in the 7th verse of Surat ar-Rahman:

He erected heaven and established the balance. (Qur'an, 55:7)



Oh sh^t, here we go again. Ok just out of curiosity…is your god male or female? You kept referring to Allah as “he”. Does he have testicles? Does he have a girlfriend?

There are many other balances established on earth for the continuity of life:

For instance, if the surface gravity were stronger than its current value, the atmosphere would retain too much ammonia and methane gasses, which would mean the end of life. If it were weaker, the planet's atmosphere would lose too much water, and life on earth would be impossible.


We are alive today because of it, not the other way around!!! Don’t be egoistic. The world doesn’t revolve around you. I think someone said that.

The thickness of the earth's crust constitutes another one of the delicate balances in the earth. If the earth's crust were thicker, too much oxygen would be transferred from the atmosphere to the crust and this would have severe effects on human life. If the opposite were true, that is, if the earth's crust were thinner, volcanic and tectonic activity would be too great to permit life on earth.

Also you should study plants/animals. We have animals that can camoflague themselves so that they are hidden among plants etc and we have other plants/animals with such complicated defence mechanisms. We could use the Venus Flytrap for example, or what about the "Tortoise Beetle" which you might not have heard of...



Are you a biologist? Please, you went online and copy/pasted a bunch of well known facts to impress me and 2 other people that read this.


The "Tortoise Beetle" has a shell in which it can hide it's antenna and feet under if threats like ants are around. Despite the ant being bigger, faster and more powerfull, it cannot overthrow this defence and gives up after around a minute! Lets look at this defence.

Under the microscope we see the Beetle's feet have 60,000
Did Allah make all 60,00 hairs one by one or all at once?

hairs and when viewed under the electron microscope we see that these hairs divide into 2. If we study wherever the Beetle clings itself to we find traces of oil made of thousands of droplets that is produced in the glands of the hairs which is leaked into the cavities. Thus the reason why the ant cant overthrow the Beetle is because the Beetle feet suck the ground using it's intricate defence system!

I'm sure you can see where this is going, that's why theories that state the universe was an accident are being scientifically disproven. The same applies to the theory of evolution.


Disproven? WHERE? WHO? FACTS? QUOTES? Oh, and your local imam doesn’t count.

If you look above at one of my earlier posts you'll see a quote from the Quran:

In the name of the merciful and compassionate God.
Blessed be He in whose hand is the kingdom, for He is mighty over all!
Who created death and life, to try you, which of you does best; for He is the mighty, the forgiving!
Who created seven heavens in stories; thou canst not see any discordance in the creation of the Merciful!
Why, look again! canst thou see a flaw? Then look again twice!--thy look shall return to thee driven back and dulled!Quran (67:1-4)

Look how true the words are, do you see any fault in Allah's creation? Look how beautiful it is. Now we must consider this: either the universe and all its magnificent creation was CREATED or UNCREATED and happened by chance. I'm sure you can see this "chance" theory fails on so many levels as I have described in this post and the other above. Is it so hard to believe there is a creator? Is that really delusional? I think not. Everything has to be created or uncreated, if it wasnt uncreated then by process of elimination it MUST be created. Never mind Islam, at least admit that there is some kind of creator...



OK, kids, todays lesson review is as follows:

1. THERE IS NO NEED FOR A CREATOR.
UNIVERSE AND NATURAL WORLD WORK FINE WITHOUT IT.

2. JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING IS COMPLEX AND COMPLICATED DOESN’T
PROVE A LONG BEARDED MAN SITTING ON A THRONE IN THE SKY.

3. YOU TAKE IGNORANT REFUGE IN RELIGION, BECAUSE OF YOUR EGOISTIC NEED TO BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE A SKYDADY, BECAUSE YOU NEED A QUICK ANSWER TO EVERYTHING, BECAUSE YOU WANT TO BELIEVE IN AFTERLIFE, BECAUSE YOU ARE ABUSED BY YOUR CHURCH AS A CHILD.

Again, your latest approach is to do some online research (I applaude you for that) and quote some facts, but where you fall way short is reasoning. Work on it. It’s good for you.

I see that you are a young confused kid. But there is a hope for you. All you need to do is think freely and forget that religious nonsense. Good luck.
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      11-26-2007, 03:09 PM   #578
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Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

HKS, sometimes men get stuck with science, and can't allow for any balance of emotions, hence Mr. Spock. IT's more human to allow at least some emotion to enter the picture. Think of the incredible power that was unleashed because of pure science with the Manhattan project. Yet those with emotions (Oppenheimer) tried to oppose this science because they realized there was more to it than just the pure science.

e90im, not taking pot-shots at you at all. But taking MY ideas from nature, and seeking of a BALANCE. IF you didn't have the emotional desire to KNOW, what good would your science provide? Something more than just a way to spend the day, I sincerely hope

My grand view of things is that LIFE is an amazing thing, in all it's forms, and it will NOT be held back. Even on our "specialed" palnetary vehicle, we discover things living in places no life should be, just because it has made a way to be alive. Volcanic vents under the ocean where things live off cianide gas??? The frozen tundra of Artic and Antartic regions? I'm a father, and would do some pretty amazing things for the beenfit of my son, but huddle in the frozen night without food for weeks??? Got to hand it to those emperor penguins!!!
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      11-26-2007, 03:49 PM   #579
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Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
Like I said, it’s a tough question to answer, but we got our best folks all over it.

HKS, sometimes men get stuck with science, and can't allow for any balance of emotions, hence Mr. Spock. IT's more human to allow at least some emotion to enter the picture.

Uncle, science is a way of thinking, not a container of knowledge. Thinking critically is what allows us to understand how the world works.
Please do not take higher moral ground just because you are religious.

On what basis do you claim that science and emotion don’t mix. Or at least in my case you assume they don’t. I have same emotions as any average Joe. Because I don't accept religious claims at face value?


Think of the incredible power that was unleashed because of pure science with the Manhattan project. Yet those with emotions (Oppenheimer) tried to oppose this science because they realized there was more to it than just the pure science.


Science advencements, not science, brought a lot of danger and misfortune to human race. I never denied that. BUT PLEASE READ THIS CAREFULLY:

SCIENCE IS NOT PHYSICS BOOKS AND FORMYLAS, IT’S A WAY OF SERCHING FOR TRUTH. OF COURSE THAT IT'S DISCOVERIES WILL BE USED POORLY.
BUT SCIENCE WOOOOOOOOOOOOORKS!! ITS REPEATABLE AND PREDICTABLE. IT'S ACCURATE AND RELIABLE. IT'S THE BEST TOOL THAT WE HAVE.

e90im, not taking pot-shots at you at all. But taking MY ideas from nature, and seeking of a BALANCE. IF you didn't have the emotional desire to KNOW, what good would your science provide? Something more than just a way to spend the day, I sincerely hope


Where did you get an idea that I don’t have desire to know? However as soon as someone claims supernatural, I ask for evidence. No evidence, no banana.

My grand view of things is that LIFE is an amazing thing, in all it's forms, and it will NOT be held back. Even on our "specialed" palnetary vehicle, we discover things living in places no life should be, just because it has made a way to be alive. Volcanic vents under the ocean where things live off cianide gas??? The frozen tundra of Artic and Antartic regions? I'm a father, and would do some pretty amazing things for the beenfit of my son, but huddle in the frozen night without food for weeks??? Got to hand it to those emperor penguins!!!

You lost me with this last paragraph bro.
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      11-26-2007, 03:53 PM   #580
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im
Firstly, where did the universe come from? nothing comes from nothing so it's completely impossible for the universe to just spontaneously come into existence. Those who question God's existence also question who his creator is, because we mostly agree that EVERYTHING has a creator. So who created the universe? or should I ask - what was the cause for the universe to exist?

Of course we can say "we don’t know what the cause of universe was, but it came into existence due to a previous cause, but we can never know what the first cause was because it's outwith our science and knowledge". However, I feel that this explanation fails quite badly because how can there ever be a first cause? Even the first cause would need a cause to come into existence. Do you see where I'm going? I could forever ask “what came before that?”

So what is your explanation?


My explanation is very simple. I DON’T KNOW. But we have our best people working on it . They are called scientists, not evangelical brainwashing religious nutjobs. Just like we didn’t know Avogadro’s number and Plank’s constant. It takes time, those are hard questions. But science doesn’t give up. You do.
LOL, I'm shocked at a lot of what you say. I'm not even gonna go back and refute it all. What we need to do is look at the basics:

Scientists are working on it? Friend I'll repeat what I said above very simply for you. Out of nothing comes nothing, no scientific discovery will ever change that. Out of nothing comes absolute nothing. If you have no atmosphere, no matter or ANYTHING how can u propose that there was a big bang that happened etc. The simple fact is that ANYTHING you say would have to be due to another cause.

You know what, keep praying that science will answer it. Maybe it'll help you sleep at night, who knows
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      11-26-2007, 04:31 PM   #581
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You were doing so well, why are you reverting to your old ways? Kids...

Take a deep breath and realize that I didn't say that something comes out of nothing. I said that we don't know the exact origin of the Universe. YET!!!

But I guess you need an answer today. Ok then read your Quran and be happy.

I don't pray, It's been proven not to work.

Ok my circumsized friend, lets rewind the timeline a couple of hundred years.

Me: A lot of babies are dying during birth

You: That's Allah's wish. Nothing can change that.

Me: But what if we try to figure out by experimenting and studying?

You: No, shut up infadel. worship! You know what, keep praying that science will answer it. Maybe it'll help you sleep at night, who knows

Me: You were right my muslim brother, Allah had just spoken to me. He let me see the future:

"A man named Louis Pasteur will be born and his experiments will confirm the germ theory of disease, also reducing mortality from puerperal fever (childbed), and he created the first vaccine for rabies. " AKBAR!!!

Conclusion: Alah killed those babies on purpose, then made Paster , who then postulated germ theory. Case closed. Savvy?

P.S. Did Allah make germs too? He is one bussy dude. An you're NOT. You are lazy and take the easy way out. Quick solution is what you're after. Ignorance and delusion are kicking your ass man. Wake up!!
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      11-26-2007, 04:37 PM   #582
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I win!!! I got the last post !!
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      11-26-2007, 04:48 PM   #583
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LMAOOO you're so daft. You make me laugh no joke

Look this is all I'm going to say:

Me: What is the origin of the universe?
Science: The Big Bang
Me: What was before that and what was the cause of the Big Bang?
Science: x was the cause of the Big Bang
Me: What was the cause of x?
Science: y was the cause of x
Me: What was the cause of y?
Science: Z was the cause of y...etc

We can NEVER establish the very first event or first thing to exist because even it requires a cause.
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      11-26-2007, 05:17 PM   #584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
LMAOOO you're so daft. You make me laugh no joke

Look this is all I'm going to say:

Me: What is the origin of the universe?
Science: The Big Bang
Me: What was before that and what was the cause of the Big Bang?
Science: x was the cause of the Big Bang
Me: What was the cause of x?
Science: y was the cause of x
Me: What was the cause of y?
Science: Z was the cause of y...etc

We can NEVER establish the very first event or first thing to exist because even it requires a cause.
I'll blow your mind now. Go get the Quran handy, you're going to need it.

What if the universe existed forever? What if time is relative? (Ooops, it actually is).
WE DON’T KNOW THE ORIGIN OF UNIVERSE BUT WE ARE DETERMINED TO FIND IT!
YOU SIT ON YOUR ASS AND READ AMBIGUOUS QUOTES AND PRAY.

The main point that you fail to understand is that just because you can't figure out something at the moment, it doesn't prove existence of God.

It’s OK to not know. That is what feeds our curiosity. This is what drives science.

But religion gives you a quick fix. And that is apparently what you need. Because you are a coward. You are afraid of death and life at the same time. You use Quran like baby uses pacifier.

Grow a pair and face the facts. Truth will set you free. It will make you appreciate life more and help you understand how precious it is.
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      11-26-2007, 05:19 PM   #585
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Now go to sleep, and pray. A lot. Must worship.
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      11-26-2007, 06:43 PM   #586
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haha, you're so immature. Cant even have a sensible discussion with you. The universe has already been proven not to be infinite and existed forever. That was a very old belief
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      11-26-2007, 07:16 PM   #587
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Religion = ignorance. How many well-educated people are truly religious as opposed to just paying lip service to social rituals?

Religion = lack of responsibility. It's easier to be a child of an all-mighty parent than a grown up individual not reporting to anyone, but bearing all of the decision-making responsibilites.
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      11-26-2007, 07:33 PM   #588
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Originally Posted by ATG View Post
Religion = ignorance. How many well-educated people are truly religious as opposed to just paying lip service to social rituals?

Religion = lack of responsibility. It's easier to be a child of an all-mighty parent than a grown up individual not reporting to anyone, but bearing all of the decision-making responsibilites.
He's back!!! I will reward you with this funny read, although some people might find it disturbing...


http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/WWMD.htm
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      11-26-2007, 07:41 PM   #589
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I was totally bored, so I read a little of your bible...Care to comment?

008.012
YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."
PICKTHAL: When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.
SHAKIR: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

Sura (5:51) - "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."
Sura (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

Sura (5:38) - "As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power."
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      11-26-2007, 07:45 PM   #590
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haha, that was indeed a good read. oldest tricks in the book, been refuted too many times.
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      11-26-2007, 08:38 PM   #591
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haha, that was indeed a good read. oldest tricks in the book, been refuted too many times.
No tricks here, these are quotes. I've noticed a behavior pattern in you...every time you're loss for words, you post smiley faces!! Please respond to my challenge.

P.S. What book are you talking about? You got to learn to be specific...Quran has made you dumb, and cushy...

Enter the octagon of science man and provide facts. Go study and reload.

P.S.2. You've become my pet project: Goes like this: "Is it possible to erase primacy? Is it possible to re-program a indoctrinated brain? Do religious people have courage to stand for themselves, or are they just sheep ready to flock?"

The answer is: we shall seeÖ
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      11-26-2007, 08:43 PM   #592
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Please stop posting: ha ha and smiley faces when asked to defend fantasyland book. Provide facts. Research, show some effort...

If you didn't have potential, I wouldn't "debate" you. But you are young, and half-bright, so I feel obligated to help. If you were a "real" muslim, you wouldn't debate me?
You know what you know...But you are smarter than that...you have the need to question...a "closet atheist" lurks there..


We'll get you straight before they close the thread my man...don't worry

BTW, I couldn't care less about the pope....I think he's gay.....
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Last edited by e90im; 11-26-2007 at 10:04 PM.
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      11-27-2007, 05:43 AM   #593
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I'll tell you why I laugh, I notice a patern just like you. All of the things you post have been discussed for years and years. People use the verses from the Quran like you do without a historical context never mind the context of the Quran itself to attack Islam. I've seen it all before, it's nothing new and it's been explained a thousand times.

Yeah you are right my mind is free unlike some other muslims, BUT their minds are closed because they stick to culture and tradition and usually dont like to enter the Arena of Science etc. Some probably just dont have the time to do this sort of this or other personal reasons, I have nothing against them. Anyway, I have a critical mind and the most important thing is that the Quran, WHOEVER the author is, tells us to have a critical mind and observe nature and science.

Look forget Islam for a minute, all I'm saying is that Science has established that the universe is not infinite. We can prove this by the dates of it's "birth" etc and also by it's nature. To believe it was always there is an old belief that has long died out. Moving on, the universe must have some cause for it to come into existance. Either it was created or uncreated, and we KNOW that matter, energy, particles etc cant just start to appear from nothing. That's why the theory of evolution fails, it cannot explain how a living cell can come into existence...

This leaves the conclusion in my mind that it must have been created like the Quran describes. Whoever the author of the Quran was, they were right. There is no flaw in any of this creation and there are many balances and perfections in design.
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      11-27-2007, 09:38 AM   #594
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Another good read.
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