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      11-20-2007, 08:57 PM   #551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neurorad View Post
Religious text disclaimer label.

Attachment 113339
Nice. Nice. Nice. Those who understand will get itģ......I said that
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      11-21-2007, 08:48 AM   #552
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Originally Posted by e90im
Why do you believe, my emotional muslim friend? Why does Allah want you to believe in her ?
That is such a huge thing to answer, something I dont have time to sit down and explain right now...

Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im
Isn't it more important to be ood and respective to others?
Again, that question can be answered from a thousand viewpoints and I really dont have time to explain right now, but I will give you an answer sometime soon

Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im
And why do you keep dodging the factual questions I asked? Why do you need a "forum resume" to support your beliefs?
You make me laugh, honestly. You are making it sound like I know I'm wrong and dont want to use any science or evidence because there isnt any that will support my beliefs.

Why do I need a "forum resume"? I dont. I'm simply stating that I have engaged in long long debates with other members on the forum on the very subject you want to engage in, so it's useless when you try make it look like I'm just unwilling because I know I'm wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im
BTW, on a lighter note, what do you study?
Accountancy
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      11-21-2007, 12:06 PM   #553
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Dear hks786,

I'll give you a bit of advice. When asked to logically and scientifically explain why you believe in Allah, just say:

I have no physical evidence, or logical explanation. I only have a desire to believe in higher power. It is what guides me thru life and comforts me when I think about death. I reject any other explanation of how universe works. Please do not back it up with Quran. If you do, you will enter the arena of science, history anthropology, physical evidence and common sense.

And BTW, you are on the right track by dodging my challenge and saying how complex matters of faith are. This is what every religion does, it tells us not to try and UNDERSTAND, just give it blind faith, and we'll be rewarded for it when we're dead!!! Universe is complex and it takes time and effort to understand it. Not giving up because
"IT WORKS IN MYSTERIOUS WAYS". The only way to defend your faith is to say:

I need no evidence, I think with my hart and gut. I use my brain for other things, like accountancy for example.

P.S. You got any pics of your car? Mine arrives in 2-3 weeks.
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      11-21-2007, 12:34 PM   #554
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Friend I worry about you, but at the same time you make me laugh. The reason I worry about you is that you still have this hilarious idea in your head that I dont want to enter this "arena of science, history anthropology, physical evidence and common sense."

Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im
This is what every religion does, it tells us not to try and UNDERSTAND, just give it blind faith, and we'll be rewarded for it when we're dead!!!
Funny guy, not only do you presume to know me as an unreasonable person that wont give reasons for my beliefs (which anyone else on the board can confirm as false) but you also pretend to know "what every religion does". That's just unacceptable on SO many levels.

Firstly, forget the fact that you might not accept the Quran to contain science that can be confirmed today. Let's suppose the "science" it contains is completely based on myths etc. Look at what the Quran says:

In the name of the merciful and compassionate God.
Blessed be He in whose hand is the kingdom, for He is mighty over all!
Who created death and life, to try you, which of you does best; for He is the mighty, the forgiving!
Who created seven heavens in stories; thou canst not see any discordance in the creation of the Merciful!
Why, look again! canst thou see a flaw? Then look again twice!--thy look shall return to thee driven back and dulled!

Quran (67:1-4)


I'll presume that you understand what you just read. Forget if you agree with it or not, the Quran encourages us to look with our own two eyes and see the "truth" for ourselves. What happened to that Arena of "common sense" eh? I thought it would be "common sense" to research into "every religion" before you say what "every religion does". Hmm maybe it's just me
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      11-21-2007, 02:22 PM   #555
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Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
Friend I worry about you, but at the same time you make me laugh. The reason I worry about you is that you still have this hilarious idea in your head that I dont want to enter this "arena of science, history anthropology, physical evidence and common sense."



Funny guy, not only do you presume to know me as an unreasonable person that wont give reasons for my beliefs (which anyone else on the board can confirm as false) but you also pretend to know "what every religion does". That's just unacceptable on SO many levels.

Firstly, forget the fact that you might not accept the Quran to contain science that can be confirmed today. Let's suppose the "science" it contains is completely based on myths etc. Look at what the Quran says:

In the name of the merciful and compassionate God.
Blessed be He in whose hand is the kingdom, for He is mighty over all!
Who created death and life, to try you, which of you does best; for He is the mighty, the forgiving!
Who created seven heavens in stories; thou canst not see any discordance in the creation of the Merciful!
Why, look again! canst thou see a flaw? Then look again twice!--thy look shall return to thee driven back and dulled!

Quran (67:1-4)


I'll presume that you understand what you just read. Forget if you agree with it or not, the Quran encourages us to look with our own two eyes and see the "truth" for ourselves. What happened to that Arena of "common sense" eh? I thought it would be "common sense" to research into "every religion" before you say what "every religion does". Hmm maybe it's just me
Dude, again, you do not provide any factual, physical evidence, just a man made book full of ambiguous fantasies. Then you get offended when called delusional. The only "proof" of existence of any "God, Allah or whatever" is a "book" of some sort and your selfish need to believe that if you "suck" up to the supernatural, you'll be rewarded in the afterlife.
If god existed and if he had any moral values, he would see right thru this and laugh at you.
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      11-21-2007, 07:28 PM   #556
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haha, you make me laugh again! I never said I'd give you any proof yet. I actually pointed out that I am really busy to go into such a debate. I was just quickly giving you a memorised quote to prove that not all religions ask you to act on blind faith like you said. Even non-muslims can conclude that the Quran is sincere.

Forget if it's sincerely right or sincerely wrong, but so many times Allah says "look at my clear signs". You might not think they are signs with science in them but the fact is that Islam DOES NOT ask you to act on blind faith.That's why I even have doubts of entering such a debate with you. Your Arena of common sense at least has crumbled down so far. Your knowledge of Islam at least is lacking and makes it unacceptable for you to accuse it of things like you already did.

But it'll be interesting how you turn this back on me and say that I just dont wanna debate with you about science etc. Thats up to you I guess. Me and everyone else knows that's not true so whatever floats your boat I guess
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      11-21-2007, 08:02 PM   #557
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For me this is quite interesting, you probably wont believe this though...

Sometimes when I seek guidance I open the Quran at a random page to see what it says and most of the time the message relates to problems in my life. I was thinking of you and hears what the page opened to:

We have explained (things) in various (ways) in this Qur'an, in order that they may receive admonition, but it only increases their flight (from the Truth)!
Say: If there had been (other) gods with Him, as they say,- behold, they would certainly have sought out a way to the Lord of the Throne!
Glory to Him! He is high above all that they say!- Exalted and Great (beyond measure)!
The seven heavens and the earth, and all beings therein, declare His glory: there is not a thing but celebrates His praise; And yet ye understand not how they declare His glory! Verily He is Oft-Forbear, Most Forgiving!When thou dost recite the Qur'an, We put, between thee and those who believe not in the Hereafter, a veil invisible:
And We put coverings over their hearts (and minds) lest they should understand the Qur'an, and deafness into their ears: when thou dost commemorate thy Lord and Him alone in the Qur'an, they turn on their backs, fleeing (from the Truth).
We know best why it is they listen, when they listen to thee; and when they meet in private conference, behold, the wicked say, "Ye follow none other than a man bewitched!"
See what similes they strike for thee: but they have gone astray, and never can they find a way.
Quran (17:41-8)
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      11-22-2007, 11:24 AM   #558
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Even non-Muslims can conclude that the Quran is sincere.

Assumption! How many non Muslims and where? People can be very sincere and very wrong. Many scientists have.

Forget if it's sincerely right or sincerely wrong, but so many times Allah says "look at my clear signs".

Allah doesn't say anything. You read it in a man-made book

Your knowledge of Islam at least is lacking and makes it unacceptable for you to accuse it of things like you already did.

I donít need to be a theologian or Imam to debate you, just like you needn't be a scientist to debate me. We both just need to think critically. That's all.

Me and everyone else knows that's not true so whatever floats your boat I guess.


Again, you make wild assumptions without evidence. You and everyone else? A little ambitious, don't you think?

10 things that might help you to understand where I'm coming from:

1. SCIENCE is not a body of knowledge (books, formulas, laws)
2. SCIENCE IS a way of thinking
3. Critical thinking is the best way that we've as humans have to get the
truth and understand universe
4. Any theory proposed by anybody must withstand rigorous scrutiny, must be backed up by evidence, and it's results must be repeatable
5. People are encouraged to question authority
6. Being wrong is a part of science. It will help you to get the truth quicker
7. If you can prove that Newtonian mechanics doesn't work (in some cases), you'll get a Nobel Prize
This is a fact. See Wikipedia under: Albert Einstein
8. Blind faith is a product of childhood indoctrination, a need to belong to a social group and a quick fix on meaning of life
9. "When practicing SCIENCE we know less and less but at least we know less and less about more and more.
When studying RELIGION we know more and more about less and less"
.
Christopher Hitchens
10. RELIGION is mass ignorance waiting for exploitation.
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      11-22-2007, 12:08 PM   #559
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im
Even non-Muslims can conclude that the Quran is sincere.

Assumption! How many non Muslims and where? People can be very sincere and very wrong. Many scientists have.
Duh. That's what I said. I was merely showing you that the Quran doesnt ask you to believe on blind faith.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im
Forget if it's sincerely right or sincerely wrong, but so many times Allah says "look at my clear signs".

Allah doesn't say anything. You read it in a man-made book
You said that "every religion" asks you to base your beliefs on blind faith. To pursue this argument further we have to to take the Quran and presume that Allah IS God and then see what he says. After the presumption, we will see that "Allah" in the Quran tells you to look at the universe and science and see how intricate and complete it is.

Infact forget that, let's presume humans wrote the Quran. Whoever wrote te text STILL asks you to study these things and look at the "clear signs". I'll assume you can now see that either way the author of the Quran doesnt ask you to act upon blind faith.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im
Your knowledge of Islam at least is lacking and makes it unacceptable for you to accuse it of things like you already did.

I don’t need to be a theologian or Imam to debate you, just like you needn't be a scientist to debate me. We both just need to think critically. That's all.
Of course you dont need to be an Imam, but when you accuse the text of asking you to believe on blind faith it worrys me. It shows that you are presuming "what every religion does" when you havent even studied them. Now if that isnt a statement without proof I dont know what is

Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im
Me and everyone else knows that's not true so whatever floats your boat I guess.


Again, you make wild assumptions without evidence. You and everyone else? A little ambitious, don't you think?
We both know I was refering to people on this board. In the past I've always given evidence from science and scripture and will engage in discussion. When you try accuse me of being unwilling to provide proof you arent fooling anyone
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      11-22-2007, 01:40 PM   #560
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Islam (Arabic: الإسلام; al-'islām) is a monotheistic religion originating with the teachings of Muhammad, a 7th century Arab religious and political figure. The word Islam means "submission", or the total surrender of oneself to God (Arabic: الله, Allāh). An adherent of Islam is known as a Muslim, meaning "one who submits (to God)".[


The word Islām is derived from the Arabic verb Aslama, which means to accept, surrender or submit. Thus, Islam means acceptance of and submission to God, and believers must demonstrate this by worshiping Him, following His commands, and avoiding polytheism.

Muslims consider the Qur'an to be the literal word of God; it is the central religious text of Islam.[23]

OK, I was wrong. Blind faith is not SUBMISSION, SURRENDER AND WORSHIP.

Rhetorical question for you: Do you believe in Santa Claus?
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      11-22-2007, 03:25 PM   #561
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Originally Posted by e90im
OK, I was wrong. Blind faith is not SUBMISSION, SURRENDER AND WORSHIP.
Yeah you were wrong, and for a man of science and common sense that's pretty shocking that you assumed to know "what every religion does". I know you're being sarcastic again but how does submission, surrender and worship mean blind faith?

Obviously being a muslim means submitting, surrendering and worshiping Allah; this is what being a muslim is about. However, we need to look at WHY, clearly the author of the Quran is inviting us to study nature and the universe as a whole to see that everything has a supreme creator - Allah.

Also, to widen this issue a little. Here's what the Quran says about other people who don’t have proof for their conjectures:

And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."
Quran (2:111)

And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides God, if your (doubts) are true.
Quran (2:23)
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      11-22-2007, 04:05 PM   #562
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I must give up on this charade. You are un-debatable, indoctrinated, delusional and ignorant of the world around you. You are a waste of my time. I got better stuff to do.


STOP quoting ridiculous brainwashing fantasy book. PLEASE DUDE!!!

And thank you for cracking me up. It's an internet clichť, but I actually laughed out loud.

SUBMISSION, SURRENDER AND WORSHIP is not blind faith?????????
Can you be more blind and delusional?


Good luck with 72 virgins!
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      11-22-2007, 04:22 PM   #563
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LMAO...you make me laugh...

Yes I said that submission, surrender and worship is NOT blind faith. Look at it this way, I can show you from the Quran that Islam is NOT about blind faith, yet you choose to give me an etymology lesson on the word "Islam" to show it's blind faith? grow up will you? you're not fooling anyone....

Like I said before, just because we submit to Allah, does that mean it's an act of blind faith? why does it have to be blind? I know that I put my trust in Allah because I've seen his clear signs that he speaks of in the Holy Quran.
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      11-25-2007, 06:41 PM   #564
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LMAO...you make me laugh...

Yes I said that submission, surrender and worship is NOT blind faith. Look at it this way, I can show you from the Quran that Islam is NOT about blind faith, yet you choose to give me an etymology lesson on the word "Islam" to show it's blind faith? grow up will you? you're not fooling anyone....

Like I said before, just because we submit to Allah, does that mean it's an act of blind faith? why does it have to be blind? I know that I put my trust in Allah because I've seen his clear signs that he speaks of in the Holy Quran.
I called you delusional before, and I apologize. You are plain dumb. And I'm bored....Bet that you wan't have the last post, nananananaaaa
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      11-25-2007, 07:00 PM   #565
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last post wins
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      11-25-2007, 07:08 PM   #566
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last post wins
If dodo was that smart, we'd live in a different world today...Mods, close the thread NOW, while UK muslim sleeps!!!
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      11-25-2007, 08:59 PM   #567
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Hmm, I guess you've demonstrated how immature you are. Dont worry though, I see it all the time. Anyway, I'm not sleeping
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      11-25-2007, 09:19 PM   #568
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If dodo was that smart, we'd live in a different world today...Mods, close the thread NOW, while UK muslim sleeps!!!
your posts would be the only reason that this thread should be closed. i'm not sure if you realize that.
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      11-25-2007, 09:35 PM   #569
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your posts would be the only reason that this thread should be closed. i'm not sure if you realize that.
Thank you sensei...you have enlightened me.

Where do you stand? Mass delusion or science?

You just provoke without taking a stand.
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      11-25-2007, 09:39 PM   #570
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Okay I know you wanted proof and I didnít have much time, but I'll give a BRIEF explanation why I believe in God. Maybe Christians could contribute if they want to because at least we agree on this

Firstly, where did the universe come from? nothing comes from nothing so it's completely impossible for the universe to just spontaneously come into existence. Those who question God's existence also question who his creator is, because we mostly agree that EVERYTHING has a creator. So who created the universe? or should I ask - what was the cause for the universe to exist?

Of course we can say "we donít know what the cause of universe was, but it came into existence due to a previous cause, but we can never know what the first cause was because it's outwith our science and knowledge". However, I feel that this explanation fails quite badly because how can there ever be a first cause? Even the first cause would need a cause to come into existence. Do you see where I'm going? I could forever ask ďwhat came before that?Ē

So what is your explanation? My explanation is obviously Allah because I'm a Muslim. No, I'm not trying to "fill the gap" so to speak but is it possible that there is a supreme creator that caused everything come into existence? Here's a challenge for you: Can you prove that any living thing has come from nothing? I really mean nothing. You canít count the atmosphere around it or even the smallest atom. Can you prove that anything came from completely NOTHING?

Thatís why theories such as evolution fail so badly. No one can prove that livings cells can come to exist out of inanimate matter and thatís why itís just a theory. I would say itís one that fails rather badly too, just like the one that suggests the Big Bang was a random accident/event.

Look at the complicated laws and systems around you; laws of physics, perfect balances, chemistry, biology etc. There's things we canít even see with our own two eyes, we have to use microscopes and telescopes. There are things we arenít even aware of, things we are still learning! By no means is science complete...

Hereís something to prove what Iím trying to say. All those years ago when the Big Bang occurred, the universe as you know was expanding. The rate of expansion was actually very sensitive and scientists say that if it was increased by 1 part in a billion billion then the universe would collapse before it reached its present size OR splatter out in every direction never to be united again. Is this a coincidence? I think not, and your mind knows it too.

Letís look at more ďcoincidencesĒ. The size of the sun, the wavelength of its rays & the distance from the Earth is perfectly suited to support human life. The same applies to the Earthís magnetic field and weather. I canít even begin to list all of these things, they are just too many. The Quran confirms this modern science 1400 years ago:

We did not create heaven and earth and everything in between them to no purpose. That is the opinion of those who disbelieve.
Quran (38:27)


Look how true the Quranís words are. Thatís not where it ends though. The Big Bang is mentioned in the Quran 1400 years ago despite it being a recent discovery. Until fairly recently, we thought the moonís light was its own but the Quran taught 1400 years ago that it is actually reflected light. In 1597 we learned that the world wasnít flat, the Quran too teaches this 1400 years ago and compares it to an Ostrich egg...

Not too long ago they used to teach in schools that the sun revolved but didnít rotate around its own axis. The Quran disagrees with this 1400 years ago and so does modern science. In 1580 we learned about the water cycle yet the Quran speaks about it at least 12 times 1400 years ago. Who could know ALL of this plus a lot more except the creator of the universe?
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      11-25-2007, 10:13 PM   #571
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I also recall your question that was to the effect of: Why believe in God, isnít it more important just to be good? Letís analyse it.

What is good? What is law? I think youíll find that all over the world we still canít agree on this. Sure we have common law or even human rights that we can agree on but is that good enough? Of course not! The fact is that laws change all the time and what might be okay now wonít be in the future. Not too long ago it was fine to not wear a seatbelt and use a mobile phone while driving; now itís illegal...

Even the words ďmoralĒ and ďethicsĒ come from Greek words which literally mean customary and based on tradition. This is so true, but in modern times we tend to base our laws on scientific findings etc. One might be satisfied with that but even that isnít good enough, how can we depend upon science when itís always changing? We both know that science can never really be completely compiled into volumes because of this reason and also the fact that there will be some things we probably donít have the ability to calculate etc.

So really then, who can decide what is morally acceptable or not? In western countries females wearing clothing like skirts can be deemed as perfectly fine while in other countries it is not modest at all. In some countries itís immodest to look at women but in western countries its fine. Similarly when men meet woman they shake hands and even kiss sometimes. Some places itís fine to do whatever you like as long as itís willing and not rape...

In America, on average people have about 8 sexual partners before they settle down with one person. They can have any number of sexual partners and since that is the average there are no doubt people who have MORE than 8. This freedom can lead to things like teenage pregnancies and hence abortions, rape etc. This is not acceptable all over the world and in some places merely looking at a woman is immodest. Islam teaches that we shouldnít gaze at womenís beauty. You tell me what way is more respectful to women...

Itís very funny though that the law will say nothing to the above situations and doesnít mind if people have more than one female sexual partner at the same time, yet the law will not agree with a Muslim man having more than one wife. In the first situation, the females have no rights or responsibilities and everything is so flexible hence why situations can turn nasty. Yet in Islam IF you decide to have more than one wife the Quran FORCES you to treat them fairly, maintain them and give them rights and heritance to your property.

Please note that you donít NEED to have more than one wife but the option is perfectly lawful in Islam AND divorce is perfectly fine if the marriage doesnt work out. You tell me if the law is being just to the Muslim man or not, it wonít allow polygamy in marriage but it allows infinite sexual partners to any male at the same time!

I could go even deeper and explain WHY Islam allows polygamy but I think that would be too much to discuss at this point. What Iím really trying to point out is that conflict of interest and ďmoralityĒ is part of human nature, so your question is flawed in that way. I agree that itís important to be ďgoodĒ but me and you clearly have different ideas about what ďgoodĒ is, so who will decide?
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      11-26-2007, 04:55 AM   #572
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Here's some more of these delicate balances in the Earth to think about:

- The Earth has a mixture of 77% nitrogen/21% oxygen/1% carbon dioxide in the atmosphere which is PERFECTLY suited to human, animal & plant life. You should know that if the oxygen level was increased then we would suffer damage yet if the level was decreased we would have respiratory problems and food we eat wouldnt be converted to energy. I'm sure you can imagine that there is a reason for the other gases and their respective proportions.

- If the mass of the earth were a little less, then its gravitational force would be insufficient and the atmosphere would be dispersed in space. If its mass were a little greater, then the gravitational force would be too much and the earth would absorb all gasses in the atmosphere. The creation of these delicate proportions and balances in the sky is mentioned in the 7th verse of Surat ar-Rahman:

He erected heaven and established the balance. (Qur'an, 55:7)

There are many other balances established on earth for the continuity of life:

For instance, if the surface gravity were stronger than its current value, the atmosphere would retain too much ammonia and methane gasses, which would mean the end of life. If it were weaker, the planet's atmosphere would lose too much water, and life on earth would be impossible.

The thickness of the earth's crust constitutes another one of the delicate balances in the earth. If the earth's crust were thicker, too much oxygen would be transferred from the atmosphere to the crust and this would have severe effects on human life. If the opposite were true, that is, if the earth's crust were thinner, volcanic and tectonic activity would be too great to permit life on earth.

Also you should study plants/animals. We have animals that can camoflague themselves so that they are hidden among plants etc and we have other plants/animals with such complicated defence mechanisms. We could use the Venus Flytrap for example, or what about the "Tortoise Beetle" which you might not have heard of...

The "Tortoise Beetle" has a shell in which it can hide it's antenna and feet under if threats like ants are around. Despite the ant being bigger, faster and more powerfull, it cannot overthrow this defence and gives up after around a minute! Lets look at this defence. Under the microscope we see the Beetle's feet have 60,000 hairs and when viewed under the electron microscope we see that these hairs divide into 2. If we study wherever the Beetle clings itself to we find traces of oil made of thousands of droplets that is produced in the glands of the hairs which is leaked into the cavities. Thus the reason why the ant cant overthrow the Beetle is because the Beetle feet suck the ground using it's intricate defence system!

I'm sure you can see where this is going, that's why theories that state the universe was an accident are being scientifically disproven. The same applies to the theory of evolution.

If you look above at one of my earlier posts you'll see a quote from the Quran:

In the name of the merciful and compassionate God.
Blessed be He in whose hand is the kingdom, for He is mighty over all!
Who created death and life, to try you, which of you does best; for He is the mighty, the forgiving!
Who created seven heavens in stories; thou canst not see any discordance in the creation of the Merciful!
Why, look again! canst thou see a flaw? Then look again twice!--thy look shall return to thee driven back and dulled!
Quran (67:1-4)


Look how true the words are, do you see any fault in Allah's creation? Look how beautiful it is. Now we must consider this: either the universe and all its magnificent creation was CREATED or UNCREATED and happened by chance. I'm sure you can see this "chance" theory fails on so many levels as I have described in this post and the other above. Is it so hard to believe there is a creator? Is that really delusional? I think not. Everything has to be created or uncreated, if it wasnt uncreated then by process of elimination it MUST be created. Never mind Islam, at least admit that there is some kind of creator...
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Last edited by hks786; 11-26-2007 at 05:17 AM.
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