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      11-18-2007, 10:13 PM   #529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bullitt5897 View Post
Lamb of God I love that band hehe its my paintball and racing music.

Many true believers are belittled because they carry the view you do HKS. Keep doing your thing and may God bless you and shine in your favor!

It is far easier to not believe in a creator than to believe in one. It is easier to ignore the creator than to open your heart, mind and ears to the one who constantly reaches out to us. May God speak to your heart and mind ATG!

Your brother,
Mike
I call: DELUSION!

Primacy...indoctrination...dogma...are some of the words you should look up.

Brother human, where do I begin? Oh, well...I have a big red dragon living in my garage! What do you have to say to that? I believe it, which makes it true.
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      11-18-2007, 10:18 PM   #530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheshireCat View Post
So, you feel that God's purpose is to deceive us in what we believe? You think that God will make himself and his word so complicated to understand that we cant possibly lead a life worthy of his blessing?

My point is that you are reading too much into what the bible says. The bible has been manipulated and changed over the course of a couple thousand years so of course there will be discrepencies but I dont feel that is reason enough for me to stop having faith.

To me God is not something that you read about in a paperback book called the bible, qur'an, tora, etc. it is something that you feel in your soul, it is something that you believe to be true no matter how much doubt people want to instill in you. If at times I doubt the interpretations of God's word by my religious "elders" then I ask God to give me guidance in what to believe and what not to believe and I go from there.

OMG. You've just defined insanity. Oh, and I have a red dragon living in my garage...I believe it so it must be true. What is a soul? Please provide an accurate definition.

"A definition consists of the genus proximum (the family) of thing to which the defined thing belongs, and the differentia specifica (the distinguishing feature which marks it off from other members of the same family)."
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      11-19-2007, 05:10 AM   #531
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Originally Posted by e90im View Post
OMG. You've just defined insanity. Oh, and I have a red dragon living in my garage...I believe it so it must be true.
I dont think that was necessary. There's ways of saying things to people and there's ways not to say things...that wasnt the way to say it.
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      11-19-2007, 10:48 AM   #532
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<JEST> How do you get red dragon droppings off your paint? Or is s/he garage-broken? Convince me of the process and I may beleive you </JEST>

Come join our discussion, don't just bash out at us. We love to hear all kinds of views on this subject. For some of us it increases our own faith, for others you may just provide teh tidbit that makes something resonate with another.
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      11-19-2007, 03:22 PM   #533
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e90im. do you believe that the dodo was a real bird?
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      11-19-2007, 11:14 PM   #534
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Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
I dont think that was necessary. There's ways of saying things to people and there's ways not to say things...that wasnt the way to say it.
OK, man....you got upset because I questioned your belief in god without any evidence (aka faith). Well, couple of centuries ago I would be hanged for this, but in this day and age you believers are embarrassed by the fact that you have to defend ridiculous scripture that discriminates women, encourages slavery etc. Dude, just because you have a need to believe in "Skydady" it doesn't make it true. Don't be egocentric.

IF YOU WANT TO REASON WITH ME, YOU JUST ENTERED THE ARENA OF SCIENCE , LOGIC AND COMMON SENSE.
IF YOU WANT TO BELIEVE IN SOMETHING WITHOUT EVIDENCE, I CANT HELP BUT CALL YOU DELUSIONAL.

PLEASE REPEAT AFTER ME:

1. JUST BECAUSE I HAVE THE NEED TO BELIEVE IN SOMETHING, IT DOESN'T
MAKE IT TRUE
2. EARTH IS NOT FLAT
3. EARTH IS NOT CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE
4. VIRGINS CAN'T GIVE BIRTH
5. MURMURING THOUGHTS PRIVATLY IN YOUR HEAD TO THE FATHERLESS MAN IN THE SKY, AND HIS FATHER (WHO IS ALSO HIMSELF) WILL NOT MAKE FATHERLESS MAN ACT UPON THEM

These are 5 comandments.

There will be a test on Sunday. Study. Savvy?
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      11-19-2007, 11:20 PM   #535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by its ray den View Post
e90im. do you believe that the dodo was a real bird?
I don't have to "believe" anything. My judgement is based on empirical data and repeateable results.

P.S. It is a well known fact that dodo is un-real. It was handmade in China. Savvy?
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      11-20-2007, 01:03 AM   #536
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lol. savvy?
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      11-20-2007, 04:01 AM   #537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im
OK, man....you got upset because I questioned your belief in god without any evidence (aka faith).
I cant understand why you would say this because I was actually pointing out to ChesireCat that faith has to be based on something. I'm actually muslim and NOT christian, go back and read my posts

I was just saying that there's ways to talk to people about their beliefs. I dont know why you felt the need to insut anyone

Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im
Well, couple of centuries ago I would be hanged for this, but in this day and age you believers are embarrassed by the fact that you have to defend ridiculous scripture that discriminates women, encourages slavery etc.
Again you just demonstrated how incredibly ignorant and cheeky you are. *sigh* I see this everyday so it doesnt bother me

Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im
IF YOU WANT TO REASON WITH ME, YOU JUST ENTERED THE ARENA OF SCIENCE , LOGIC AND COMMON SENSE.
I have no problem with that because I've already discussed these areas with other people on the forum, but what happened to the arena of tolerance and respect?

Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im
IF YOU WANT TO BELIEVE IN SOMETHING WITHOUT EVIDENCE, I CANT HELP BUT CALL YOU DELUSIONAL.
Ah, I see what happened to it. You have issues. You cant control yourself and refrain from insulting people. No probs

Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im
1. JUST BECAUSE I HAVE THE NEED TO BELIEVE IN SOMETHING, IT DOESN'T
MAKE IT TRUE
I didnt say that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im
2. EARTH IS NOT FLAT
I didnt say that either. The Quran actually taught 1400 years ago that the Earth is the shape of an Ostrich egg

Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im
3. EARTH IS NOT CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE
I didnt say that either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im
4. VIRGINS CAN'T GIVE BIRTH
With Allah all things are possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im
5. MURMURING THOUGHTS PRIVATLY IN YOUR HEAD TO THE FATHERLESS MAN IN THE SKY, AND HIS FATHER (WHO IS ALSO HIMSELF) WILL NOT MAKE FATHERLESS MAN ACT UPON THEM
I'm Muslim not Christian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im
These are 5 comandments.

There will be a test on Sunday. Study. Savvy?
I think you have other issues that need to be addressed before questioning people like Muslims and Christians. You need to embrace the simple concept of respecting other people
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      11-20-2007, 09:24 AM   #538
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I'd have to take exception to #4, scientifically. A virgin doesn't have to have sex with a man to conceive, via the miracles of science and test tubes and in vitro fertilization. Life finds a way. . .

There are increasing numbers of double-blind studies that show a positive effect of prayer on healing. Now, I don't want to get into the whole double-blind issue, but we're NOT talking only faith here. There are hundreds of cases where medical science says a person should have died from their wounds, and yet, miraculously, the person survives with little or no lasting effects.

So which science camp do you belong to? The one that actually looks and keeps an open mind, or the one that fits the science to their personal beleif, whatever it may be?
Not in a chalenging, negative way, but with an open, curious scientific mind that believes there are still forces out there we don't understand.
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      11-20-2007, 01:06 PM   #539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
I'd have to take exception to #4, scientifically. A virgin doesn't have to have sex with a man to conceive, via the miracles of science and test tubes and in vitro fertilization. Life finds a way. . .

There are increasing numbers of double-blind studies that show a positive effect of prayer on healing. Now, I don't want to get into the whole double-blind issue, but we're NOT talking only faith here. There are hundreds of cases where medical science says a person should have died from their wounds, and yet, miraculously, the person survives with little or no lasting effects.

So which science camp do you belong to? The one that actually looks and keeps an open mind, or the one that fits the science to their personal beleif, whatever it may be?
Not in a chalenging, negative way, but with an open, curious scientific mind that believes there are still forces out there we don't understand.

Dr Herbert Benson, a cardiologist of Mind/Body Medical Institute near Boston did a prayer experiment on 1,802 patients. Results were published in 2006 in American Hart Jurnal as follows: There are no difference between those patients that were prayed for and those who were not. You are more than welcome to read it. By the way this "prayer study" was sponsored by Templeton Foundation and it cost $2.4 million.

I absolutely keep an open mind. I AM AGNOSTIC. That being said, I withold judgement until I see evidence, and most importantly I do not involve a "creator" or miracle when I don't understand something. Just because we don't understand "outside forces" doesn't mean that God exists. This is basic logical falacy known as devine falacy.
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      11-20-2007, 01:24 PM   #540
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With Allah all things are possible.
This is just a statement no different than this: With the dragon in my garage
all things are possible.

About the delusion thing. Why does that offend you. If I told you that a dragon lives in my garage you would ask to see it. If I said that it's invisible, you'd ask to use some infrared waves to detect it's fire. After I failed to produce evidence of any kind except book about dragons and you called me delusional, I wouldn't have the right to get offended. You are just attaching a lot of negative emotion to term delusion. It just means a false belief in spite of invalidating evidence.

I'm Muslim not Christian.

OK, question for you. Are all the Christians wrong?
Are they going to hell since they donít believe in Allah?
Are they delusional?

I think you have other issues that need to be addressed before questioning people like Muslims and Christians. You need to embrace the simple concept of respecting other people [/quote]

OK, I apologize. I was trying to make a point by being sarcastic.

I do have issues. They are: suicide bombers, stem cell research, intelligent design being taught in science classes, televangelist cons, children indoctrination, arguments from religious authority that can't be questioned, church state separationÖthe list goes on
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      11-20-2007, 01:57 PM   #541
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im
Dr Herbert Benson, a cardiologist of Mind/Body Medical Institute near Boston did a prayer experiment on 1,802 patients. Results were published in 2006 in American Hart Jurnal as follows: There are no difference between those patients that were prayed for and those who were not. You are more than welcome to read it. By the way this "prayer study" was sponsored by Templeton Foundation and it cost $2.4 million.
For me that means nothing. Allah says clearly in the Quran that life wont be smooth sailing for the believers, he will test ALL of us:

"Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe," without being put to the test?" We have tested those before them, for GOD must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.
Quran (29:2-3)


Do you expect to enter Paradise without being tested like those before you?
Quran (2:214)


Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im
OK, question for you. Are all the Christians wrong?
Are they going to hell since they donít believe in Allah?
Are they delusional?
Actually no. See here:

And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book [Jews and Christians], those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God: They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account.
Quran (3:199)


Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.
Quran (3:113-114)
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      11-20-2007, 02:25 PM   #542
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For me that means nothing. Allah says clearly in the Quran that life wont be smooth sailing for the believers, he will test ALL of us

Quran was written by humans. You believe that Allah exists because there is a book about him. The fact that you do not accept scientific evidence and choose to interpret the world around you based on emotions only is a very dangerous thing. Dark ages my man.

If you want to continue this debate with me, you need to quote facts, evidence, testable theories, not just scripture. If you continue to do so, I will claim that Santa Claus exists.
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      11-20-2007, 03:21 PM   #543
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      11-20-2007, 03:45 PM   #544
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im View Post
For me that means nothing. Allah says clearly in the Quran that life wont be smooth sailing for the believers, he will test ALL of us

Quran was written by humans. You believe that Allah exists because there is a book about him. The fact that you do not accept scientific evidence and choose to interpret the world around you based on emotions only is a very dangerous thing. Dark ages my man.

If you want to continue this debate with me, you need to quote facts, evidence, testable theories, not just scripture. If you continue to do so, I will claim that Santa Claus exists.
That's such a huge debate to get into. I dont even have time to get into that. Trust me you remind me of Max on here, me and him used to debate a lot; science and everything These days I just dont have the time with uni and everything. I do know where you're coming from though.
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      11-20-2007, 04:23 PM   #545
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
That's such a huge debate to get into. I dont even have time to get into that. Trust me you remind me of Max on here, me and him used to debate a lot; science and everything These days I just dont have the time with uni and everything. I do know where you're coming from though.
Interestingly, you had time to qoute scriptures earlier but when any evidence is asked for you back of.

"BELIEF SYSTEM THAT CAN NOT SURVIVE SCRUTINY IS NOT WORTH HAVING"

Carl Sagan said that. Give it a thought if not too busy with the uni and all...
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      11-20-2007, 06:05 PM   #546
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Divine fallacy-
When I get to the point that I can't understand those forces that seem to defy any logic or experimentation, I call upon that creative force that made all of this God.
I don't give up hope, or I wouldn't be reading/discussing this here, nor reading journals that advance the scientific understanding. Yes, I am guilty of trying to mold that into an understanding of what I call God. If that makes me less of a person in your eyes, then so be it. I may be second in line in your line, but first in my own line. They may or may not lead to the same place, but that's where I choose to stand.

Just out of respectiful curiosity, do you consider light a particle or a wave? I've never been able to get past that one
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      11-20-2007, 06:44 PM   #547
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Divine fallacy-
When I get to the point that I can't understand those forces that seem to defy any logic or experimentation, I call upon that creative force that made all of this God.
I don't give up hope, or I wouldn't be reading/discussing this here, nor reading journals that advance the scientific understanding. Yes, I am guilty of trying to mold that into an understanding of what I call God. If that makes me less of a person in your eyes, then so be it. I may be second in line in your line, but first in my own line. They may or may not lead to the same place, but that's where I choose to stand.

Just out of respectiful curiosity, do you consider light a particle or a wave? I've never been able to get past that one
My fellow man, you are not anything but cool in my eyes. You question. You are not sure. Wave or particle? That's what science is all about...we are figuring things out. We are very young at this. Gringos. But we don't give up and say: Well I cant figure it out so it must be the Skydaddy that made it. Game over....

Just because wedon't understand something, we don’t have to "invent" something more complex, supernatural, to explain it. Be patient. It takes years, decades to get to the bottom of things.

We (humans) are where we are because of our ability to critically think and find out what works the best. We are not the biggest, the fastest, but we can THINK and thinking is QUESTIONING. There are no AUTHORITIES. If you can prove that gravitational constant is not 9.81 m/s^2 you will get a Nobel prize. Science encourages people that challenge authority. Unlike religion.

You question, therefore you think.

I said that.
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      11-20-2007, 08:02 PM   #548
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Originally Posted by e90im View Post
Interestingly, you had time to qoute scriptures earlier but when any evidence is asked for you back of.

"BELIEF SYSTEM THAT CAN NOT SURVIVE SCRUTINY IS NOT WORTH HAVING"

Carl Sagan said that. Give it a thought if not too busy with the uni and all...
How foolish. I've been participating in debates with many people on this board about areas of science etc, what makes you think I'd avoid discussing it with you? and how hard do you think it is to quote my own scripture? It takes only a few secs. But to engange in such a lengthy debate requires a lot more effort and time. I already told people that I have uni and I'm gonna be busy but I try my best.

Again you prove yourself to be immature. *sigh* Dont just take my word on it, ask other members and they'll tell you I can sit down and have a debate about religion, science, evidence for beliefs etc. Just look at my post count...
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      11-20-2007, 08:07 PM   #549
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because wedon't understand something, we donít have to "invent" something more complex, supernatural, to explain it. Be patient. It takes years, decades to get to the bottom of things.
How do you know that's the logic we all use to explain our beliefs in a God of some sort? It's most definately not why I believe in God.
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      11-20-2007, 08:55 PM   #550
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Quote:
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How do you know that's the logic we all use to explain our beliefs in a God of some sort? It's most definately not why I believe in God.
Why do you believe, my emotional muslim friend? Why does Allah want you to believe in her ? Isn't it more important to be good and respective to others? And why do you keep dodging the factual questions I asked? Why do you need a "forum resume" to support your beliefs? Do you need social proof? Why can't your theory survive scrutiny on it's own, supported by facts only?

BTW, on a lighter note, what do you study?


Q: Do you financialy contribute to your religious assembly? I am the future leader of paypalmuslim.org website. If you feel inclined to contribute, PM me.
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