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      05-25-2007, 07:31 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Max_! View Post
> So, all Europeans and other people who lived before Christ's birth went straight to hell because they did not follow the new testament?

Nah, I'm sure there's an escape clause somewhere.

One true god, 12 god bickering on top of a mountain in greece, same thing.
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      05-25-2007, 08:09 PM   #266
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Allah and the Christian God are the same .... they are the God of Abraham. Of course neither really exist ... another striking similarity.

The Quran can't prove anything. It's a text written by men. I can write a book and say anything I want in it. Doesn't prove a thing.
Actually no, the Quran was revealed to one man, and only one man, may I also add that our book has not changed even one bit! Anyway, how do you explain our existence? Please tell me then, how we came to exist and how the universe came to exist. And what are you talking about doesnt prove anything? have you even read everything I have posted? I have posted quotes from the Quran which are supported by modern science. How could our prophet know this 1400 years ago and he wasnt even educated. Maybe you just have trouble understanding the quotes, if thats the case I could easily explain them to you...
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      05-25-2007, 10:16 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
Actually no, the Quran was revealed to one man, and only one man, may I also add that our book has not changed even one bit! Anyway, how do you explain our existence? Please tell me then, how we came to exist and how the universe came to exist. And what are you talking about doesnt prove anything? have you even read everything I have posted? I have posted quotes from the Quran which are supported by modern science. How could our prophet know this 1400 years ago and he wasnt even educated. Maybe you just have trouble understanding the quotes, if thats the case I could easily explain them to you...
Prove to me that "The Quran was revealed to one man, and only one man" by "God". Prove it and I'll convert tomorrow. You seem to be keen on "proof" ... let's see some.

"Anyway, how do you explain our existence?" I've already said that I feel no need to make up fanciful tales ... I accept that we don't know yet. That's ok with me. How do you explain the existence of God? Oh ya I know ... he was just "always there".

"And what are you talking about doesn't prove anything?" It is just a book ... a collection of words. No proof, just words. Words that you can interpret as you see fit. Words written by man - no God was involved since Gods don't exist.
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      05-26-2007, 02:03 AM   #268
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> I mean, people arent even seeing how amazing it is that an uneducated man 1400 years ago can produce a text with ALL of this knowledge

He did not produce this text. He was illiterate.

Quran was written down only after his death. Until that time it was updated and rearranged many times in the minds of Muhammed and his followers. Muhammed even 'retracted' some of the verses he gave his followers, claiming those had been inspired by Satan rather than God. The book also had at least one major revision.

I'm not saying Muhammed was a false prophet, but a false prophet could gather a lot of knowledge from his followers in 23 years. Many false prophets have done this in the past - appear to have knowledge of things they could not.

I'm not saying some of his followers added verses to Quran without Muhammed's permission, but that too is not impossible, since it was written down from recitations of his followers after Mohammed died.

What I am saying is that if Quran is the word of god, neither Allah nor Muhammed took proper care of it.

One mistake in one verse would be enough to give completely different meaning to your entire religion.

Muslim experts say that translations of the Quran are mere interpretations and not the word of god. That means that unless you're fluent in ancient arabic, and you've read the thing in arabic, you're really just guessing.
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      05-26-2007, 06:39 AM   #269
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Prove to me that "The Quran was revealed to one man, and only one man" by "God". Prove it and I'll convert tomorrow. You seem to be keen on "proof" ... let's see some.

I can only prove that it is the word of Allah by showing you the content. Please look at this thread and the other thread "Are we at war with Islam?" and you will see lots of evidence that the Quran is indeed the word of Allah. The Quran has only been revealed to one man and has NEVER changed! look below:

The Qur'an ("Qor-Ann") is a Message from Allah to humanity. It was transmitted to us in a chain starting from the Almighty Himself (swt) to the Angel Gabriel to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). This message was given to the Prophet (pubh) in pieces over a period spanning approximately 23 years (610 CE to 622 CE). The Prophet (pbuh) was 40 years old when the Qur'an began to be revealed to him, and he was 63 when the revelation was completed. The language of the original message was Arabic, but it has been translated into many other languages.
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      05-26-2007, 06:43 AM   #270
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He did not produce this text. He was illiterate.

Quran was written down only after his death. Until that time it was updated and rearranged many times in the minds of Muhammed and his followers. Muhammed even 'retracted' some of the verses he gave his followers, claiming those had been inspired by Satan rather than God. The book also had at least one major revision.


Yes, but it was revealed to him, and do you know that he learned it by heart, WORD FOR WORD. If you want proof that people can memorise the Quran by heart, I personally know people that know it by heart. The Holy Prophet revealed the verses to companions and they learned it by heart. Then the Quran was compiled and it was completed when the Holy Prophet left the world. This Quran has never changed since then. People may have translated it differently but the arabic has never changed and this is mentioned in the Quran. And if you are going to tell me that the Holy Prophet didnt write the Quran, how did his companions know all the facts about science in the Quran? See my next post, I will cover everything...
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      05-26-2007, 06:58 AM   #271
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There are different ways to prove that the Qur'an is the word of God, which has always been true and has never been subjected to change or distortion. These proofs can be classified into three types: the way the Qur'an was transmitted throughout the centuries, some challenging verses within the Qur'an itself, and the periodic, modern-day discoveries in the universe that were first mentioned in the Qur'an more than fourteen centuries ago.

Unlike the Bible and Old Testament that have been subject to innumerable translations, doubtful and spurious transmissions, and corruptions at the hands of clerics up till now (with the “gender sensitive” versions coming out these days), the Qur'an was transmitted to us in an unprecedented and unique manner according to rigorous rules of transmission. The Qur'an was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) via the angel Gabriel, and the Prophet subsequently memorized the whole scripture.

Thousands of the Companions of the Prophet learned the Qur'an directly from the Prophet (pbuh). They memorized it and were known in Islamic history as huffaadh (the memorizers and preservers of the Qur'an). Moreover, a number of Companions wrote it down during the lifetime of the Prophet (peace be upon him), and it was compiled in its entirety immediately after his death.

The following generation of Muslims learned the Qur’an directly from the Companions. Thus the chain of teaching and learning through direct contact continued systematically, methodically, and meticulously until the present age.

Additionally, several of the Companions of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) were appointed as scribes to record the words of the revelation directly from the Prophet himself on parchment, leather, or whatever else was available. The most famous of these scribes was Zayd ibn Thabit, who also memorized the entire Qur’an, and he formed with the others a community of huffaadh that can be compared to academic societies of our present time.

We know the Qur’an was recorded in totality during the lifetime of the Prophet (pbuh) and the different surahs (chapters) personally arranged by him. Many copies of the text were used for study and teaching, even in Mecca before the Hijrah, the migration to Medina.

The entire Qur’an was written down during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad, and trusting the fact that many scholars knew it by heart, it was not collected in one volume. It was personally arranged by him, and the Muslims memorized it in the same order. The companion Uthman reported that whenever a new verse was revealed, the Prophet would immediately call a scribe to record it. He would instruct the person to put the specific verse or verses in a particular chapter.

Furthermore, every year during the month of Ramadan, the Prophet would recite the whole Qur’an from beginning to end in its present-day arrangement, and everyday people could hear it from his own lips in the mosque. Its sequence is no mystery. Many of the Companions not only memorized it completely, they also wrote it down and even added commentary (tafseer) on their own personal copies. When the Prophet passed away, the whole Qur’an was already written down, but it was not yet compiled in book form.

During the rule of the first Caliph Abu Bakr, there was a rebellion among some distant Arab tribes that resulted in a series of fierce battles. In one particular battle, a number Companions who had memorized the Qur’an were killed. The Companion Omar worried that the knowledge of the Qur’an was in danger, thus he convinced Abu Bakr that the Qur’an should be compiled into book form as a means of preserving it once and for all.

Zayd bin Thabit was entrusted with this important task. Zayd followed strict methods in his compilation and had dozens of other huffaadh recheck his work to ensure its accuracy. Abu Bakr, who had also committed the entire Qur’an to memory, approved of the final product. After Abu Bakr passed away, the copy was passed to the Caliph ‘Omar, and then Uthman.

However as the Muslim world expanded into lands where the people spoke Arabic as a second language, the new Muslims had a difficult time learning the correct pronunciation of the text. The Caliph Uthman consulted other Companions, and they agreed that official copies of the Qur’an should be inscribed using only the pronunciation of the Quraysh tribe, the Arabic dialect that the Prophet spoke.

Zayd bin Thabit was again given this assignment, and three other huffaadh were assigned to help him in the task. Together, the four scribes borrowed the original, complete copy of the Qur’an, duplicated it manually many times over, and then distributed them to all of the major Muslim cities within the empire. Two of these copies still exist today: one is in Istanbul and the other in Tashkent.

One must keep in mind that in traditional learning in the Arab world, transmission was based upon an oral tradition as well as a written one; the Arabs (and later all Muslims) excelled in accurately reporting scripture, poetry, aphorisms, etc. through the generations without change. Similarly, the chain of huffaadh was never broken, and thus the Qur'an today has reached us in two forms: the memorized version transmitted through the scholarly chain, and the written version based upon the Companions’ initial recording.

If the Qur’an had been changed, there would be huge discrepancies between these two today, as the Qur’an has reached isolated (and sometimes illiterate) communities through the memorized form of transmission without the written form to correct it. No such discrepancies have ever been recorded or reported. In other words, isolated village A in African Mali and isolated village B in Afghanistan will both produce contemporary huffaadh reciting the same words of the Qur’an, though they did not learn from a similar printing of the scripture nor has there ever been a concerted international effort to rectify would-be discrepancies.

Allah has said in the Qur’an that He alone will protect His book, and indeed He has kept His promise. The Qur’an that we read today contains the same exact words that were revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) over 1400 years ago. This is quite a miracle, especially when you consider that no other group of people can say that their book has not been subject to change by the time it reached the present generation.

Only the Qur’an has survived through the centuries unchanged, and the language in which it was revealed, classical Arabic, still enjoys practical usage around the world. While classic English of the 14th century can be understand by very few native English speakers, the Qur’an can be understood by the vast majority of Arabic-speaking Muslims. When compared to other scriptures, the Qur’an is unique in these two respects.

Furthermore, from the prolific arts that have accompanied Qur’anic learning and transmission, we can learn of the auspiciousness and honor with which the Muslims have traditionally held the Qur’an. The visual arts of calligraphy and binding, and the vocal art of recitation represent examples of such arts, and from them we can see that veracity of transmission would be understood as a fundamental aspect of Qur’anic reverence.

As regards the proofs within the Qur'an itself, they can be found in the following Qur’anic challenges:

"Do they not then meditate on the Qur’an? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy."
Surah 4, verse 82

"Say: If men and jinn should combine together to bring the like of this Quran, they could not bring the like of it, though some of them were aiders of others."
Surah 17, verse 88

"And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful."
Surah 2, verse 23


Regarding your reference to the scientific miracles in the Qur’an, they are too numerous to mention in depth. We refer you to the following links for a more detailed analysis:

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/
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      05-26-2007, 07:13 AM   #272
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Please also read this website, it is VERY useful...

http://www.islam101.com/science/GaryMiller.html

I appreciate that it is very lengthy, but I feel it is a lengthy topic and I am trying to answer ALL of your questions. Please read all of it and what I have posted in this thread and in the "Are we at war with Islam?" thread. I hope you can see the proof you need. Please let me know if you have any more questions.
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      05-26-2007, 09:38 AM   #273
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> I appreciate that it is very lengthy,

So much so that it's starting to interfere with my porn browsing...

What does Quran say about porn?
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      05-26-2007, 10:57 AM   #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_! View Post
> I appreciate that it is very lengthy,

So much so that it's starting to interfere with my porn browsing...

What does Quran say about porn?
Did you read it? what are your thoughts now?

Islam thinks it is wrong to look at such things. When a man has desires of such things it is advised that he should look for a wife. Islam believes women should be modest and cover themselves and men should not look at women. This prevents wrong things from happening. For example, if you do not look at women or take notice of them, it would be better because if you looked then you might want to touch them and you know where that could lead. Many things like teenage pregnancies wouldnt exist if everyone followed Islam. Women wouldnt be raped or treated bad, women wouldnt be called nasty things if they covered themselves and if they covered themselves then even if men looked at them, they couldnt see anything. There are many reasons why Islam is the perfect way of life.

The gaze is a poisonous arrow from among the arrows of Iblis. He who restrains (his staring gaze) for fear of me. I shall exchange it for such solid Imaan, the sweetness of which he will experience in his heart.
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      05-26-2007, 02:13 PM   #275
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I'm married, not dead.

You can take my internet porn when you pry my mouse from my cold, dead, hands.

> Women wouldnt be raped or treated bad

So... Rape and abuse should not exist in Iran? Or are Iranian Muslims not true Muslims?

I think the problem is the men, not the women. Maybe gauging the eyes of your men out is more effective than dressing your women in eeeh... Burka's they're called right?

But, I can appreciate the irony in being able to rape women and then blame the women for enticing you and then have those women sentenced to death for making you rape them.
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      05-26-2007, 02:59 PM   #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_! View Post
I'm married, not dead.

You can take my internet porn when you pry my mouse from my cold, dead, hands.

> Women wouldnt be raped or treated bad

So... Rape and abuse should not exist in Iran? Or are Iranian Muslims not true Muslims?

I think the problem is the men, not the women. Maybe gauging the eyes of your men out is more effective than dressing your women in eeeh... Burka's they're called right?

But, I can appreciate the irony in being able to rape women and then blame the women for enticing you and then have those women sentenced to death for making you rape them.
Max_!, you're killin me here!!
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      05-26-2007, 03:31 PM   #277
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So... Rape and abuse should not exist in Iran? Or are Iranian Muslims not true Muslims?

Good question. Nope, they are not of the right faith. The Holy Prophet said that the muslims would split into 73 sects (test of faith) and Christians would split into 72 and Jews into 71. This is true. But the Holy Prophet told us the right path for muslims is the one where you follow the Quran and the advice the Prophet gave in his lifetime (Sunnah). I am a Sunni muslim, it is easily the correct faith, but ask a Shia and he will tell you different. Ah well. Perhaps you can tell by the way I speak that I am of good faith and I think LOGICALLY.

Anyway, about rape, I feel muslims have brought great shame to our religion. Rape is wrong, the penalty is severe...

I think the problem is the men, not the women. Maybe gauging the eyes of your men out is more effective than dressing your women in eeeh... Burka's they're called right?

Well that is your opinion, you probably cannot understand the modesty of women in Islam. You might never understand it since you are so interested in porn. But let me tell you bro, modesty in beautiful because it keeps us pure. Most muslim women who cover themselves do not get abused or raped etc. It is true however that some are taken advantage of, even by American troops in Iraq or by muslims even in some cases (see my next post).

But, I can appreciate the irony in being able to rape women and then blame the women for enticing you and then have those women sentenced to death for making you rape them.

No bro, the blame will be on both sides. Women should cover themselves, and men should lower their gazes. But sentencing women to death because they enticed you? that is not Islam, you know that yourself. But look at anyone of any faith (or no faith) they will not follow their own morals 100% everytime. There are bad muslims, bad jews, and just plain bad humans.
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      05-26-2007, 03:40 PM   #278
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Nadia begins her story:

I was visiting one of my relatives, and suddenly the American forces attacked the home and started to inspect it. They found some light weapons. So, they arrested all people in the home including me. I tried to explain to the interpreter, who was accompanying the American patrol, that I am just a visitor. However, my trials failed. I cried, begged them, and I lost consciousness from fear when they took me to Abu Gharib prison.

Nadia continues they put me alone in a dark and dirty prison cell. I expected that I will be released soon, especially when the investigation proved that I hadn't committed a crime.

Nadia elaborated while tears poured down her cheek, a telling sign of just how much she has suffered.

The first day was so burdensome. The cell was malodorous, humid and dark, and this condition increased the fear inside me more and more.

The laughs of the soldier outside the cell made me even more scared. I was afraid of what would happen to me. For the first time I felt that I was in a difficult gridlock and that I had entered an unknown world that I would not get out of.

In the middle of these different feelings, I heard a voice for an American soldier woman who was speaking in an Arabic language. She said to me: I didn't imagine that the weapons traders in are women. When I started to explain to her the circumstances of the situation, she beat me cruelly. I cried and shouted By Allah! I am oppressed, By Allah! I am oppressed

The soldier showered me with insults in a way that I have never thought possible or that I would ever be subjected to under any circumstances.

Then, she started to deride me saying that she was monitoring me all the day via the satellite, and that they can track their enemies even inside their own bedrooms by American technology.

Then she laughed and said: I was watching you when you were making love with your husband. I replied in a confused voice But I am not married.

She beat me for more than one an hour and she forced me to drink a glass of water, and I knew later that they put a drug in it. I regained my consciousness after two days to find myself naked. I knew immediately that I have lost something that all the laws in the earth will not be able to return it to me once again. I had been raped. A hysterical fit attacked me and I started to hit my head violently against the walls till more than five American soldiers head by that soldier women entered the cell and started to beat me, and they raped me alternately while they laughing and listening to a loud music.

Day by day the scenario of raping me was repeated. And every day they invent new ways that are crueller than the prior ways.

She went on describing the horrible acts of the American criminals:

After about one month, a Negro soldier entered my cell and threw me two pieces of American military clothes. He said in weak Arabic language to wear them. After he put a black bag on my head, he led me to a public toilet where there are pipes for cold and hot water and he asked me to bathe. He then closed the door and left.

I was so exhausted and feeling pain, and despite the tremendous number of the bruises in my body, I poured out some water on my body.

Before I finish my bath, the Negro soldier came in. I frightened, and I hit him in the face with the water bowl. His reaction was so tough.

He raped me cruelly and spit on my face, then he left and returned with two soldiers who returned me to the cell.

The treatment continued that way, to the extent that sometimes I was raped ten times in a day, the matter which affected my health negatively.

Nadia continued in revealing the American horrible actions made against the Iraqi women, saying:

After more than 4 months, a woman soldier woman came, and I concluded from her conversation with other soldiers that her name is Mary. She said to me now you have a golden opportunity, since an officer who has a high position will visit us today, if you deal with him positively, you would be released, especially because we are sure you are innocent.

I replied, If you are sure of I am innocent, why you don't release me?

She screamed in nervousness, the only way that guarantees your releasing
is to be positive with them.

She took me to the public toilets, and she supervised my bath while she was holding a thick stick, hitting me by it if I didn't perform her orders.

Then, she gave me makeup, and warned me not to cry and ruin my makeup. Then she took me to an empty small room where there was nothing but a cover on the floor, and after one an hour she came accompanied with four soldiers who was holding cameras. She took off her clothes and she harassed me as if she was a man. The soldiers were laughing and listening to a noisy music, and taking photographs to me in all poses, and they were emphasizing on my face.

The woman asked me to smile otherwise she is going to kill me, and she took a gun from one of her colleagues and fired four bullets near my head, and swore that the fifth bullet will be fired in my head.

After that, the four soldiers raped me alternately the matter which made me lose my consciousness. When I regained the consciousness I found myself in the cell and the traces of their teeth, nails and cigarettes are in everywhere in my body.

Nadia stopped narrating her tragedy to wipe her tears, then she continued: After one day Mary came and told me that I was cooperative, and I will be released but after I watch the film that they have shot. I was in pain when I saw the film, and she (Mary) said: you have been created for the sole purpose for us to enjoy.
At the moment I became very anger and I attacked her although I was afraid of her reaction, and I would kill her except for the interfering of the soldiers. When the soldiers released me she showered me with hitting, then they left me.

After this incident, nobody harassed me for more then one month; I spent that period in the praying and invocation to Allah, the All-Mighty who has all power, to help me.

Mary came with some soldiers who gave me the clothes that I was wearing when they arrested me and took me to an American car. Then they threw me on the highway road after giving me 10,000 Iraqi Dinars.

I went to a home that was near the place where I have been thrown out and since I know the reaction of my family, I preferred to visit one of my relatives to let them know what happened after my absence. I knew that my brother had held a consolation board for me for more than 4 months, and they considered me as a dead person.

I understand the knife of shame is waiting for me. So, I went to Baghdad where I found a good family who lodged me, and I worked with this family as a maid and governess for their children.

Nadia wonders in pain, regret and bitterness:

Who will quench my thirst? Who will return my virginity? What is the offence of my family and kin? I have inside me a baby, and I don't know who his father is.

And she ends her story here.
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      05-27-2007, 02:42 AM   #279
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> No bro, the blame will be on both sides.

Not according to Sharia, the law set forth in Quran by Allah.

Women get's raped, she's an adulterer, which is punishable by death.

Iran is the perfect Muslim state as set forth my Quran.

> you probably cannot understand the modesty of women in Islam.

You need to talk to Iranian women. If that's allowed.

> raped

Women get raped by default in Iranian prisions. Just to make sure they don't go to heaven.

I'm sure the US army does what it can to prevent its soldiers from raping the locals too much.

> Who will return my virginity?

Actually, when I was in school, the muslim girls talked about a doctor who did that, but it was expensive so they had anal sex instead - which I understand to be disproved by Mohammed. Anyways, they told me the only thing that mattered was blood on the sheets on their wedding night.

Abstinence is the most unnatural of all sexual perversions. It's to be expected that normal teens will have sex before marriage.

I did. Man, did I have lots and lots of sex before marriage!
(I'm going to hell anyway, so I can brag about it ;-)
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      05-27-2007, 08:46 AM   #280
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Women get's raped, she's an adulterer, which is punishable by death.

Sadly, many muslims do not follow Islam properly. Islam is not unfair to anyone. I know you are only too happy to find fault in Islam because so far it does not satisfy your mind. BUT, the simple fact is, if you are looking at wrong information about Islam, then how can you judge it? Regarding rape is Islam, perhaps you should see this:

The question of rape has been much discussed because of the inhuman demand made on the raped women by some agents of law in certain countries.
In fact the answer should be given in keeping with the spirit of the Islamic Shari’ah which always strives for justice. This is the ruling given by the famous scholar of Islamic Shari'ah Sheikh Ahmed Kutty on the topic:

"A woman who has been raped cannot be asked to produce witnesses; her claim shall be accepted unless there are tangible grounds to prove otherwise. To insist that she provide witnesses is akin to inflicting further pain on her. If anyone refutes her claim of innocence, the onus is on him to provide evidence, and she may simply deny the claim by making a solemn oath, thus clearing herself in public. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “The onus to provide evidence falls on the one who makes a claim, and the one who denies (the same) can absolve himself or herself by making a solemn oath to the contrary.”

This is what Sheikh Muhammad Saleh Al-Munajjid has to say on this topic:

"Islam has a clear stance which states that this repugnant action is haram (forbidden) and imposes a deterrent punishment on the one who commits it... Moreover, Ibn `Abdul-Barr (may Allah bless his soul) said:
'The scholars are unanimously agreed that the rapist is to be subjected to the hadd punishment if there is clear evidence against him that he deserves the hadd punishment, or if he admits to that. Otherwise, he is to be punished (that is, if there is no proof that the hadd punishment for zina may be carried out against him because he does not confess and there are not four witnesses, then the judge may punish him and stipulate a punishment that will deter him and others like him). There is no punishment for the woman if it is true that he forced her and overpowered her. (Al-Istidhkaar, 7/146)."

The point is that the raped woman need not produce witnesses.

I hope this satisfies you. I would not be a muslim if I thought it was unfair especially to women who I feel are not recognized enough in society. Women should be modest in their dress and men should respect them by lowering there gaze. Islam teaches this. And you say that Islam does not demand men to be modest in behavious? Our Holy Prophet tells us that if we should accidentally notice a woman then no punishment is on us, but if we should look at her again deliberately then we would be punished for that unless we seek forgiveness after acknowledging the mistake. I really dunno how people can comment on Islam’s “faults” when indeed they do not know it like they think they do…

Actually, when I was in school, the muslim girls talked about a doctor who did that, but it was expensive so they had anal sex instead - which I understand to be disproved by Mohammed. Anyways, they told me the only thing that mattered was blood on the sheets on their wedding night.

This is stupid. Islam completely bans anal sex. If muslims choose to take part in it then they will be punished, but it is wrong for sure. Look:

"Cursed is the one who approaches his wife in her rectum" (Reported by Imaam Ahmad, 2/479; see also Saheeh al-Jaami', 5865).

"The one who has intercourse with a menstruating woman, or with a woman in her rectum, or who goes to a fortune-teller, has disbelieved in what was revealed to Muhammad." (Reported by al-Tirmidhi, no. 1/243; see also Saheeh al-Jaami', 5918).

Almighty Allah says in the Qur'an: "Your wives are a tilth for you, so go to your tilth (have sexual relations with your wives in any manner as long as it is in the vagina and not in the anus), when or how you will, and send (good deeds, or ask Allah to bestow upon you pious offspring) for your own selves beforehand. And fear Allah, and know that you are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give good tidings to the believers (O Muhammad)." (Al-Baqarah: 223)

In the foregoing verse the word harth (tilth) indicates that only vaginal sex is permissible in Islam, because it is from this place children are produced. The semen lodged in the womb from which offspring comes is likened to the seeds that are planted in the ground, bringing vegetation. Both of them are substances from which something else is produced.

Regarding the operation the doctor can perform. It is Hymen Reconstruction. But do you think it restores virginity? Ask any victim of rape, they will tell you no. The simple fact of rape is that once the rapist has penetrated the woman, it cannot be undone. It is permanent. Sure, you could hide your loss of virginity by the operation, but it never reverses what has already happened. I pray that these girls see that they are wrong. I have never heard of muslim girls speaking so dirty. May Allah forgive them.
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      05-27-2007, 09:37 AM   #281
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> Sadly, many muslims do not follow Islam properly.

What kind of a percentage are we talking about? 10% of muslims that do not follow Islam properly?

> Cursed is the one who approaches his wife in her rectum

Yeah, but, these boys/girls weren't married. Are they still cursed?

> In the foregoing verse the word harth (tilth) indicates that only vaginal sex is permissible in Islam

What about oral sex? Is that out too?

> It is Hymen Reconstruction. But do you think it restores virginity?

Apparently, what the inlaws think is all that matters.

But yeah - if the only indication of virginity is an intact hymen, then resoring the hymen restores virginity.

I think with rape, the loss of virginity pales in comparison to the violation of personal integrity. *THAT* cannot be fixed with an operation.

> I would not be a muslim if I thought it was unfair especially to women

Do women deserve to be treated equal to men, or should they be treated more in line with their social position in predominantly Muslim societies?

Are muslim men supposed to be virgins when they marry?
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      05-27-2007, 09:46 AM   #282
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> I have never heard of muslim girls speaking so dirty.

Ah, but they would never talk about this (or anything, really) when muslim boys where around. Some of these girls were savagely beaten for a lot less.

I have not yet witnessed Muslim men treating their women fairly (or at least what I consider to be fair == equal).
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      05-27-2007, 10:20 AM   #283
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What kind of a percentage are we talking about? 10% of muslims that do not follow Islam properly?

I am unaware, there a huge number of muslims that do lots of things that are actually unislamic. Our Holy Prophet tells us to follow the Quran and Sunnah but some muslims even change the Shariah law etc

Yeah, but, these boys/girls weren't married. Are they still cursed?

Yes because sex before mariage is wrong in Allahs eyes. So is adultery.

What about oral sex? Is that out too?

Well I'm sure it is, but I will find out for you.

Apparently, what the inlaws think is all that matters.

Thats a sort of cultural idea. You find that a lot in Asia.

But yeah - if the only indication of virginity is an intact hymen, then resoring the hymen restores virginity.

Well to me, it doesnt. Just because you cannot see if something has happend or not, it doesnt mean it hasnt happened. The whole point is that the girl can never be a virgin again because she cannot reverse time and change what happened to her whether it is rape or sex. Physically she would be a virgin, but in the eyes of Allah, no.

personal integrity. *THAT* cannot be fixed with an operation.

I believe in that.

Do women deserve to be treated equal to men, or should they be treated more in line with their social position in predominantly Muslim societies

Muslim men and women should be equal. The word "man" and the word "woman" are both mentioned 24 times in the Quran miraculously. However, men and women do have different rights etc. For example, a husband should make sure his wife and children have everything they need etc. You see what I mean?

Are muslim men supposed to be virgins when they marry?

In the Quran it is quite explicitly stated that you cannot judge a woman by her pastlife. I have read this myself. And to be honest it makes sense, because if a woman becomes good but you still hold her to her pastlife that is going to cause a conflict between the husband and wife, isnt it?

Ah, but they would never talk about this (or anything, really) when muslim boys where around. Some of these girls were savagely beaten for a lot less.

That is true. I just pray to Allah they see that they have sinned greatly.

I have not yet witnessed Muslim men treating their women fairly (or at least what I consider to be fair == equal).

Then I feel sorry for you because maybe you have bad ideas about my religion because men of Islam in modern times do not treat wifes the way they should. Check this video out, It is 60 ways that we can keep our marriage intact Islamically. It even says that we should ignore our wife's faults because there are other aspects of them that we love. And if we are to give advice to our wives to change, then we must do it when there is not a bad situation or atmosphere at home. Our Holy Prophet even ignored his wives faults but sometimes told them when they were wrong, but he always treated them fairly. Anyway check the video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...ays&time=45000
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      05-27-2007, 10:30 AM   #284
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It's Sunday, and I'm going to a baseball game --- Dodgers vs. Cubs 1:10PM PST.
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      05-27-2007, 12:03 PM   #285
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> Then I feel sorry for you because maybe you have bad ideas about my religion because men of Islam in modern times do not treat wifes the way they should.

What gives me bad ideas is that there are so few true muslims who go against that.

If you see a muslim treat his wife badly, do you go to him and tell him he's not walking the path of the prophet?

> Muslim men and women should be equal.

Are there female imams?

> Dodgers vs. Cubs

Well, you don't need to be a prophet to know how that's going to turn out ;-)
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      05-27-2007, 02:39 PM   #286
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If you see a muslim treat his wife badly, do you go to him and tell him he's not walking the path of the prophet?

You'd be suprised how many turn a blind eye in this world, yes even muslims. The Israeli Army allow Jews to take over Palestinian homes and when they try to return to their homes they are not allowed. So really the Israeli Army are letting the Jews take the homes from the rightful owners. I seen this on a documentry just the other day....

And what about "Nadias story", I posted it earlier. Many of the American Troops witnessed the 10 daily rapes and beatings and even took part. Noone said "Hey thats wrong"

Are there female imams?

Yeah there are, most muslims agree that it is permissable.
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