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      10-16-2011, 11:53 AM   #1
ericjay56
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Supercharger+6MT=Suicide?

Recently found a great opportunity to trade my e92 DCT for a 6MT (both '11). The DCT, although it is the superior transmission, just doesn't cut it in terms of driving experience. Upshifting and downshifting only gets boring! Plus, the m3 I have now is on a lease and the 6MT would be bought out. I don't have the option to buy out my current one, long story. Anyways, I was thinking down the road to put in a S/C into the stick m3, is it too much power to control? Anyone have a story to tell? thanks
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      10-16-2011, 01:12 PM   #2
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If you feel there's too much power, you can always elect not to push the accelerator down all the way

But honestly, I don't see how having a 6MT versus a DCT would mean the difference for losing control with a supercharger. You may feel more of an urgency to get the shifting done faster in manual, but that's about it.
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      10-16-2011, 02:14 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blotman View Post
If you feel there's too much power, you can always elect not to push the accelerator down all the way

But honestly, I don't see how having a 6MT versus a DCT would mean the difference for losing control with a supercharger. You may feel more of an urgency to get the shifting done faster in manual, but that's about it.
Good point, do you have any idea up to what horsepower/psi of boost a manual transmission could withstand?
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      10-16-2011, 02:19 PM   #4
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There are people with both transmssions IIRC running well over 550whp without issues
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      10-16-2011, 02:55 PM   #5
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      10-16-2011, 03:05 PM   #6
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It isn't something you should just "jump" into. There is a sense of responsibility that comes with it. You can also consider looking into different driving schools, etc.
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      10-16-2011, 04:17 PM   #7
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If anything, the power should be more controllable with the 6 speed since you are choosing the gear. Performance will be slightly less since boost will drop while you shift (more slowly than the DCT shifts). The 6MT is likely stronger than the more complex DCT. Torque is still pretty low, so the clutch should be fine (clutches are rated by torque not rwhp). Even an ESS VT650 with all the bolt on mods is struggling to break 400 lbs rwtq.

Go for it. I have never had too much power. With a centrifugal supercharger, the boost comes only with rpm and with a high revving low torque engine like the S65, power comes in slowly and predictably. Centrifugal supercharged power is very controllable. You won't have any issues.
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      10-16-2011, 04:49 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
If anything, the power should be more controllable with the 6 speed since you are choosing the gear. Performance will be slightly less since boost will drop while you shift (more slowly than the DCT shifts). The 6MT is likely stronger than the more complex DCT. Torque is still pretty low, so the clutch should be fine (clutches are rated by torque not rwhp). Even an ESS VT650 with all the bolt on mods is struggling to break 400 lbs rwtq.

Go for it. I have never had too much power. With a centrifugal supercharger, the boost comes only with rpm and with a high revving low torque engine like the S65, power comes in slowly and predictably. Centrifugal supercharged power is very controllable. You won't have any issues.
Thanks for the advice. So i guess the next question would be which one to get, but that's a whole different thread
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      10-16-2011, 05:42 PM   #9
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The best centrifugal is probably the ASA used by GPower. It is a planetary gear drive and spins faster than a traditional gear drive like the Vortech and makes great torque for a centrifugal, and is more compact, and is clutched. I am not sure if ASA has a blower big enough yet to compete with the Vortech, but they do have one that can make in the 550 rwhp range on these cars.

AA uses a planetary gear drive blower also. It spins fast also and makes pretty good torque for a centrifugal. It is compact enough to allow for a simple and reliable air to air intercooler. It is a bit on the small size so top end power does not have the same potential as the Vortech if you are going for the maximum. It will still make in the 525-550 rwhp range on these cars. Sometimes overall power is more important than peak power. Find a dyno and study the power curve.

ESS uses the Vortech, which is simple, large and sturdy. It requires a water to air intercooler since it leaves little space for air to air piping, but air to water has its advantages -- a very short path for the cooled air into the engine. The Vortech spins slowly, relatively, and is not as torquey as a result in the midrange. But it has a pretty big impeller and makes great top end power.

Gintani also uses the Vortech blower.

Good luck. Tough choices and you can't really go wrong with any of them.
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      10-16-2011, 06:42 PM   #10
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Most likely going with the VF engineering one, they shop near me is very close with them
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      10-16-2011, 06:47 PM   #11
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VF is also Vortech with water/air intercooling, which seems to be the most popular combination used by the aftermarket supercharger kit makers.
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      10-16-2011, 07:04 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
VF is also Vortech with water/air intercooling, which seems to be the most popular combination used by the aftermarket supercharger kit makers.
Would that be a contender then?
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      10-16-2011, 07:43 PM   #13
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I simply forgot to put them on my original list.

You will be spending a lot of money, so do some comparison shopping and find satisfied owners. The Vortech plus air/water concept is certainly good enough for others to be using similar setups. The tune will be the critical component.

In terms of popularity, ESS appears to have sold the most E9x M3 systems by a considerable margin.
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      10-16-2011, 08:06 PM   #14
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Just want to say my VT-1 doesn't have an Intercooler (I had limited $ Funds) and I haven't had any problems.

I "tracked" at Summit Point Main in July when the air temperature was 107 degrees.

As stated above, many good SC choices. Good Luck!
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      10-16-2011, 08:10 PM   #15
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6MT+supercharged M3 = match made in heaven
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      10-16-2011, 10:04 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
If anything, the power should be more controllable with the 6 speed since you are choosing the gear.
You choose the gear in DCT too... Unless you use Auto mode all the time, which is stupid if you bought a DCT.
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      10-17-2011, 11:43 AM   #17
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6MT+supercharged M3 = match made in heaven
+1. I've ran two different SC kits on my car and I wouldn't run this car without a supercharger at this point.
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      10-17-2011, 11:59 AM   #18
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I am about to do this and drove a freinds and it is awsome with a MT6. Very smooth and easy to drive. The change in the car is amazing.

Shaun
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      10-17-2011, 01:00 PM   #19
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I think the part about the Vortec blower making less torque than
the HKS is pure myth, maybe even sales pitch by the guys selling
those blowers. I just downloaded a bunch of files from the Dyno
Database (www.bmwdynodatabase.com) and when you compare the same
boost and same octane, the Vortec has far more torque than the HKS
blowers. Down low where it really counts, the Vortec has as much
as 40ft/lbs more torque than either of those kits. The only way I
could get the graphs to show more torque on the HKS blowers than
the Vortec, was to compare against cars with 1.5-2.0 PSI less
boost.

It was hard to get an apples-apples comparison with the ASA blower
since there's only one entry in the DynoDB for this type of
blower. From what I saw, the ASA might have more torque than the
Vortec up to a point. But just like the HKS, the ASA blower dyno
chart showed it falling apart above 7000 RPMs. The power dropped
like a rock at that point.

I'll send links to the Dyno DB files I used in case anybody wants
to do their own analysis.
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      10-17-2011, 03:17 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by img View Post
I think the part about the Vortec blower making less torque than
the HKS is pure myth, maybe even sales pitch by the guys selling
those blowers. I just downloaded a bunch of files from the Dyno
Database (www.bmwdynodatabase.com) and when you compare the same
boost and same octane, the Vortec has far more torque than the HKS
blowers. Down low where it really counts, the Vortec has as much
as 40ft/lbs more torque than either of those kits. The only way I
could get the graphs to show more torque on the HKS blowers than
the Vortec, was to compare against cars with 1.5-2.0 PSI less
boost.

It was hard to get an apples-apples comparison with the ASA blower
since there's only one entry in the DynoDB for this type of
blower. From what I saw, the ASA might have more torque than the
Vortec up to a point. But just like the HKS, the ASA blower dyno
chart showed it falling apart above 7000 RPMs. The power dropped
like a rock at that point.

I'll send links to the Dyno DB files I used in case anybody wants
to do their own analysis.
Yes, different boost levels may be required on different blowers for the same power and there is nothing wrong with that. In the turbo world, this is very common. You can run a very small and very responsive turbo and bring the boost in earlier and make more torque sooner, but choke out on the top end and not make as much peak power. Or you can run a massive turbo and need much less boost to make the same power, but the torque will arrive later even if it is ultimately more torque. I am not going to compare a GT30R at 12 psi to a GT35R at 12 psi -- I'll compare the GT30R at 16 psi to the GT35R at 12 psi. While a centrifugal supercharger is not motivated by exhaust gas energy like a turbo, it does have a centrifugal and an impeller and boost will take more or less time to arrive depending on the size of each.

ESS used to run the ASA blower (on the E46 M3 before the days of the E9X M3), but changed to the Vortech since it works pretty well over a broader power range and that helps with upgradeability of the kits. ESS made more midrange power with the compact and high speed ASA planetary gear drive blower than with the larger and slower Vortech fixed gear drive blower.
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      10-17-2011, 03:19 PM   #21
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      10-18-2011, 01:57 PM   #22
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Whenever I read posts like this, I get the urge to supercharge. Then I go for a drive and Im reminded how poor the traction of the rear wheels is. I have a stock 6MT (except for axle back) and 295's in the rear. Any temp less than 70 degrees and a i get excessive wheel spin. Even when its above 70 its not to hard to break them loose. Not to mention it takes about 15-20 to warm up the tires even under ideal temps. So unless Im cruising on the highway, i cant justify the extra power which for me, would get old with constant wheel spin. If I could manage the traction, it would be totally worth it!

And yes, my wheels are properly aligned and I have tried a dozen or more psi settings.
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