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      10-16-2011, 10:08 PM   #1
cboneck
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Me vs. SRT8

I'm cruising home after some errands this afternoon and pull up behind a Challenger SRT8. Despite the fact that I've sat in this car and it's a tub, it does look really nice in black, very American muscle.

My new friend and I swap order and then come up to the next light (I think I saw a soul-patch on the guy but them it may have just been that Dolphins Crying was on the radio). I'm thinking... this guy has 470 horses, 460+ foot pounds and that racing him isn't a good idea. But I'm curious...

We soon find ourselves rolling at 30 mph and I decide to see if I can leave this guy. Logic be damned I floor it.... wait wait... third (MT6)... wait... fourth... I look behind me and my friend is a total of 10 feet from my rear bumper.

We are approaching a couple cars and I slide into the left lane from the right and then decide to lift as (and this is an important detail) we are in a 45 mph zone. No need to kill any families, I'm thinking. As I lift I hear this thunderous roar coming around the far left, and by farI mean on the other side of the double yellow. It's the black mamba roaring around. Soon there is a Dikembe Mutombo finger wave saluting me from an open sunroof (the finger also had a soul patch).

Now I've been on the track with the SRT8 and lapped them up with relative ease (track has lots of corners and short straights), but I'll admit I was pretty impressed with the sound and menacing street speed of a 47k car.

I hope the next M3 gives me the 400 foot pounds so my Bravarian ego can aviod these minor distractions...
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      10-16-2011, 11:11 PM   #2
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So would the m3 beat the srt8 in a drag race ? Sounds like you guys didnt get much of a race.
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      10-17-2011, 01:15 AM   #3
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those cars are like 4000 lbs.
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      10-17-2011, 01:42 AM   #4
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And people ask why BMW adds turbo's. Because of threads like this. You want gobs of torque, go buy a C63 AMG. An ///M car is about the Chassis. Not 1000 hp and 203984049 billion foot pounds of torque so the car can't corner.
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      10-17-2011, 06:20 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
And people ask why BMW adds turbo's. Because of threads like this. You want gobs of torque, go buy a C63 AMG. An ///M car is about the Chassis. Not 1000 hp and 203984049 billion foot pounds of torque so the car can't corner.
I don't think the chassis needs to change if it holds a turbocharged motor.

It used to be that an M car was also about the control of the manual transmission and a high revving naturally aspirated engine. The manual trans bit is dying out now that we have DCT and DCT is faster. And the bit about an M car being all about a high revving naturally aspirated engine will die out also.

Why was the high revving naturally aspirated engine needed? So you could stay in gear longer around the racetrack? DCT shifts so quickly, that advantage is immaterial. So it could make more power? A turbo will allow a smaller engine to make both more power and, perhaps more importantly, more torque. So the driver could manage the power better because the torque comes in slowly and gradually and there really is not that much of it? Traction control will help the driver put the power down just like DCT helps the driver shift better. We may even see a performance AWD system from BMW at some point.
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      10-17-2011, 09:15 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
I don't think the chassis needs to change if it holds a turbocharged motor.

It used to be that an M car was also about the control of the manual transmission and a high revving naturally aspirated engine. The manual trans bit is dying out now that we have DCT and DCT is faster. And the bit about an M car being all about a high revving naturally aspirated engine will die out also.

Why was the high revving naturally aspirated engine needed? So you could stay in gear longer around the racetrack? DCT shifts so quickly, that advantage is immaterial. So it could make more power? A turbo will allow a smaller engine to make both more power and, perhaps more importantly, more torque. So the driver could manage the power better because the torque comes in slowly and gradually and there really is not that much of it? Traction control will help the driver put the power down just like DCT helps the driver shift better. We may even see a performance AWD system from BMW at some point.
Torque comes in slowly and gradually with a turbo engine? I thought it was more difficult to manage/fluctuate the power on turboed cars. I agree that the power is there but the direct control of that power is not consistent throughout the powerband.
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      10-17-2011, 09:36 AM   #7
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Torque comes in slowly and gradually with a turbo engine? I thought it was more difficult to manage/fluctuate the power on turboed cars. I agree that the power is there but the direct control of that power is not consistent throughout the powerband.
No, I wrote that maybe people though a high revving naturally aspirated engine was important to an M car so torque would come in gradually and slowly and be more manageable.

With good traction control, you can just put your foot down with the turbo engine and electronics will take care of the rest. Just like with a DCT shifting for you. Just like with ABS braking for you.

I have had a 463 rwhp/368 lb rwtq centrifugal supercharged E36 M3, a 521 rwhp/517 lb rwtq turbocharged E36 M3, and a stock naturally aspirated E90 M3. The turbo is by far the most entertaining, at least to me.

I won't try for a minute to defend the current M3 against the future turbo version. I am sure the next generation turbo M3 will be a lot of fun and am confident it will be faster in a straight line and around a racetrack. Each successive generation M3 thus far has been faster and better handling.
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      10-17-2011, 09:39 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
Why was the high revving naturally aspirated engine needed? So you could stay in gear longer around the racetrack?
I don't think it was needed. It is a euro way to make high revving high horse power (ie, low torque) engines. Look at F1 vs NASCAR. Also, it is good to have lots of power with small torque, makes the track-out easier.

Quote:
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So it could make more power? A turbo will allow a smaller engine to make both more power and, perhaps more importantly, more torque. So the driver could manage the power better because the torque comes in slowly and gradually and there really is not that much of it?
Yes more torque means more power, but if you have too much torque, than putting all of it on the asphalt gets harder.

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Traction control will help the driver put the power down just like DCT helps the driver shift better. We may even see a performance AWD system from BMW at some point.
Traction control will help soccer moms trying to drive an M3, and it will annoy enthusiast who are tracking their cars.
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      10-17-2011, 10:23 AM   #9
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Street racing = fail

Hoping you get a big fat ticket next time you decide to do something like this in town.
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      10-17-2011, 10:38 AM   #10
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Ease up guys. I understand the OP is just saying he would like more torque. There is nothing wrong with that. I too would like more torque. I dont think anybody is knocking the high revving V8 we all love but there is nothing wrong with wanting more. We all know the M is not a drag car and shows its real skill on the track but still, if the S65 had another 100 lbs of torque would anybody be complaining?
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      10-17-2011, 11:20 AM   #11
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Quote:
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Street racing = fail

Hoping you get a big fat ticket next time you decide to do something like this in town.
Amen!!!
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      10-17-2011, 11:22 AM   #12
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if the S65 had another 100 lbs of torque would anybody be complaining?
I would
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      10-17-2011, 11:44 AM   #13
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Quote:
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Another thread fail.
As are most threads these days.
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      10-17-2011, 03:02 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erhanh View Post

Traction control will help soccer moms trying to drive an M3, and it will annoy enthusiast who are tracking their cars.
I am sure ABS brakes annoyed those same enthusiasts 25 years ago, that DCT is annoying them now (can't buy the new M5 with a 6MT; just 7DCT), and that the possibility of turbos are annoying them now. Many of the people who go to the track want to get around it as fast as possible, and cars with turbos and AWD and traction controls and ABS and DCT may be the fastest.

You could restore an old 2002 for a real driver's experience.
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      10-17-2011, 04:07 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
I am sure ABS brakes annoyed those same enthusiasts 25 years ago, that DCT is annoying them now (can't buy the new M5 with a 6MT; just 7DCT), and that the possibility of turbos are annoying them now. Many of the people who go to the track want to get around it as fast as possible, and cars with turbos and AWD and traction controls and ABS and DCT may be the fastest.

You could restore an old 2002 for a real driver's experience.
I believe M5 will be available as MT in USA. ABS is fine if it is threshold is low enough.

I don't know if many people go to track to get around as fast as possible. I know I don't.

I don't see myself buying any modern car for track duty... I'm still looking at cars like lotus elise/exige, porsche 944, e30/36 m3 etc...
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      10-17-2011, 08:29 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
I am sure ABS brakes annoyed those same enthusiasts 25 years ago, that DCT is annoying them now (can't buy the new M5 with a 6MT; just 7DCT), and that the possibility of turbos are annoying them now. Many of the people who go to the track want to get around it as fast as possible, and cars with turbos and AWD and traction controls and ABS and DCT may be the fastest.

You could restore an old 2002 for a real driver's experience.
I agree, DCT and ABS are proven technologies that benefit any driver on street or track. Traction control is a different matter, at least in any form I have driven on most production street cars. The one exception that I might consider neutral, is the ZO6 and, I assume the ZR1. But the M3 version is going to be slower for any driver of modest or greater skill. I guess the issue is fear of liability, so the makers include a traction control system that is protective to the point of intrusion. I have to congratulate Chevy for designing a great system. Its least intrusive "competition" mode will rarely get in the way, but it can be nice to have if the torque gets the better of you. And I probably misstated it slightly. I think, in that mode TC is shut off, and stability control is dialed down, but still on.
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      10-18-2011, 08:08 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
And people ask why BMW adds turbo's. Because of threads like this. You want gobs of torque, go buy a C63 AMG. An ///M car is about the Chassis. Not 1000 hp and 203984049 billion foot pounds of torque so the car can't corner.
How many actually read this number? I didn't...
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      10-18-2011, 10:36 AM   #18
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How many actually read this number? I didn't...
Sarcasm meter fail.
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      10-18-2011, 10:48 AM   #19
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I still do not get it-which is the faster car in a drag race?
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      10-18-2011, 11:07 AM   #20
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1... Oh, and btw, retarded story.

Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointerman View Post
Street racing = fail

Hoping you get a big fat ticket next time you decide to do something like this in town.
Amen!!!
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      10-18-2011, 03:37 PM   #21
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Okay, let's get this straight: An E90/92 M3 will easily take a new SRT8 Challenger. They're quick, but they're extremely heavy. I think the fastest 0-60 I've seen was about 4.4-4.5 seconds. The M3, with a proper driver, will easily do that, and faster. The Challenger, more due to its weight, takes a little getting used to when launching.

Cool car, interesting to drive, but not faster than the M3. Maybe if you're at highway speeds it'll take you.
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      10-18-2011, 04:58 PM   #22
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I don't think it is fair to say the OP is a bad driver. He says he has track experience and has left the Challenger behind on the track, presumably due to the turns. Here, he raced from 30 mph all the way through 3rd gear and into 4th gear. I'll guesstimate 30-100 mph, and the Charger was 10 feet off his bumper. That length of run does away with the explanation that it was a brief race in which the weak but long and steady torque M3 was caught off guard and the strong but short and mountain-like torque Charger had the advantage.

Maybe the Charger was modified? Maybe the E9x M3 with 6MT is not usually as fast as the fastest magazine times/speeds.
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