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      05-08-2007, 04:53 PM   #111
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If W had been born to a middle class American family he would be lucky to be selling insurance and driving a white Buick. He was and is a product of social promotion in its truest form.
What are your feelings on Al Gore and John Kerry? Both of whom had lower grades at Harvard/Yale than W had at Yale.
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      05-08-2007, 04:54 PM   #112
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we tried to get the oil fields before they were sabotaged. My point is that there is an ulterior motive to our invasion other than 'liberating the people of Iraq'
I stand corrected on the Rumsfeld photo...
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      05-08-2007, 05:06 PM   #113
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we tried to get the oil fields before they were sabotaged. My point is that there is an ulterior motive to our invasion other than 'liberating the people of Iraq'
I stand corrected on the Rumsfeld photo...
Did you consider that we attempted to secure the oilfields because they represent totality of Iraqi national assets and if Iraq was to recover from the 12 years of sanctions and the 30 years of Saddam's rule, they would need them?

That protecting the oil fields was a major component of "liberating the people of Iraq"?
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      05-08-2007, 05:09 PM   #114
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If the US pulls out before Iraqi's can deal with their problems, chaos will erupt; spread over the entire area...if you think now is bad, just wait.

I support the troops and I support the Bush administration. I am not sure whether any peace will ever come to the Middle East - regardless of how hard the US tries.
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      05-08-2007, 05:30 PM   #115
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Did you consider that we attempted to secure the oilfields because they represent totality of Iraqi national assets and if Iraq was to recover from the 12 years of sanctions and the 30 years of Saddam's rule, they would need them?

That protecting the oil fields was a major component of "liberating the people of Iraq"?
That's a really convenient explaination for our actions, and a very Anglo-centric one at that. If you look at the actions objectively from a non-US standpoint, the average Iraqi sees us heading directly for the oil fields rather than securing the power grids, water facilities and other basic civillian needs that could have provided them with some measure of optimism about the situation. Instead they had no running water or power for many months because we didn't even have a clear plan of how to get the infrastructure of this country up and running. Why? Because our intention wasn't really to help the average Iraqi but to create an industry of 'rebuilding' Iraq by awarding fat contracts to corporations. In the meantime Iraqis ponder the choice of whether to be part of the security police or facing unemployment...
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      05-08-2007, 05:52 PM   #116
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I wasn't aware that Protocol 1 of the Geneva Conventions was a USA book rule??
Hm, thanks for pointing it out -- but somehow I missed to find where it says that "State media is a legitimate target and should be burned with civilians inside!"
Also, I was told that one of US basis of democracy is the freedom of speech -- freely speak what you think, even if I disagree with you. But you tell me that the US supports burning the enemy media and killing its civilian employees because they spread unfavorable things about us???

In the end, it comes down to MORALS. OBL flew planes into the WTC and killed 3000 innocent -- bad thing to do. Clinton threw tomahawk into the TV building and killed 16, luckily there were not 500 people as it could be inside. Same shit in my mind -- both are cold blooded murderers!
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      05-08-2007, 05:53 PM   #117
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If the US pulls out before Iraqi's can deal with their problems, chaos will erupt; spread over the entire area...if you think now is bad, just wait.

I support the troops and I support the Bush administration. I am not sure whether any peace will ever come to the Middle East - regardless of how hard the US tries.
And we have credible intel about that...
Give me a f'n break -- I believe nothing this administration tells us...
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      05-08-2007, 05:56 PM   #118
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>
Honestly, ganeil, do you believe the war in Iraq is Righteous?

Do you think the average Iraqi agrees?

Of the 6-billion something people, do you think more people agree with you or disagree with you. If they disagree with you, does that make you wrong?
Why would you ask a robot, someone who thinks there is nothing outside of the USA and that nothing else matters, and someone who's never been outside of the USA and middle east (on assignment) question like that.

Of course all we did is justified, great and the whole world loves and respects Bush and Americans...
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      05-08-2007, 06:27 PM   #119
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That's a really convenient explaination for our actions, and a very Anglo-centric one at that. If you look at the actions objectively from a non-US standpoint, the average Iraqi sees us heading directly for the oil fields rather than securing the power grids, water facilities and other basic civillian needs that could have provided them with some measure of optimism about the situation. Instead they had no running water or power for many months because we didn't even have a clear plan of how to get the infrastructure of this country up and running. Why? Because our intention wasn't really to help the average Iraqi but to create an industry of 'rebuilding' Iraq by awarding fat contracts to corporations. In the meantime Iraqis ponder the choice of whether to be part of the security police or facing unemployment...
Infrastructure requires money to build/maintain. Nobody over there is going to have any money if their principal source of income is turning itself from nice long hydrocarbons into CO2 and water (along with other compounds assuming insufficient oxygen) while we watch it burn.

Also, the problem you run into here is that just because you can't dis-prove something doesn't make it true. i.e. There is no way to prove we're not greedy SOBs and went to get our grubby paws on the oil, but at the same time you can't prove that we did it for the Iraqis either. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. (I think I've mentioned this before in the thread.)

Don't confuse problems with execution with bad intent. Government is quite bloated atm. W isn't enough of a fiscal conservative for many republicans. (Myself included)
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      05-08-2007, 06:43 PM   #120
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Don't confuse problems with execution with bad intent. )
Wow. You should become a spin doctor for the gov't. I'm talking about the ugly reality of what's happening on the ground there and you just think it's bad execution! Because I can't physically prove that the intent was to grab the oil and not rebuilding Iraq doesnt mean that my argument isn't true. I tried to give you an example of what a non US citizen sees in our actions to maybe get you to realize that you can't believe the story the Bush admin is trying to feed us, and that everytime we enter a conflict it's not really to 'help' people but to further our own interests. The sad fact is that people all over the world suffer everytime we have 'problems with execution'. I would prefer to have tax dollars spent on helping people here get more prosperous...
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      05-08-2007, 07:33 PM   #121
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And we have credible intel about that...
Give me a f'n break -- I believe nothing this administration tells us...
What I said was a personal observation.

Bush is a good man, he's trying to do the right thing - we all make mistakes and i'm not implying I believe this whole thing with Iraq is a mistake, but hindsight is 20/20, only time will tell. Half the people who critisize the the President aren't in his shoes and none of us really know whats going on behind the scenes, we aren't the CIA...etc

I am cautious of what I hear, but know even the media doesn't have the full story - only those in power know whats going on, and there are national security reasons why they don't reveal everything.

We could argue till were both blue in the face...in the end it doesn't do any good, so i'll stop there. We'll agree to disagree, that works for me
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      05-08-2007, 08:20 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by nightops View Post
That's a really convenient explaination for our actions, and a very Anglo-centric one at that. If you look at the actions objectively from a non-US standpoint, the average Iraqi sees us heading directly for the oil fields rather than securing the power grids, water facilities and other basic civillian needs that could have provided them with some measure of optimism about the situation. Instead they had no running water or power for many months because we didn't even have a clear plan of how to get the infrastructure of this country up and running. Why? Because our intention wasn't really to help the average Iraqi but to create an industry of 'rebuilding' Iraq by awarding fat contracts to corporations. In the meantime Iraqis ponder the choice of whether to be part of the security police or facing unemployment...
That would make sense if Saddam's government had not specifically threatened to destroy the oil fields, if the civilian infrastructure was not dilapidated and off-line much of the time prior to the invasion, and if the US government rather than the elected Iraqi government awarded the major oil contracts (which, by the way, have gone to non-US firms).
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      05-08-2007, 08:37 PM   #123
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Hm, thanks for pointing it out -- but somehow I missed to find where it says that "State media is a legitimate target and should be burned with civilians inside!"
Also, I was told that one of US basis of democracy is the freedom of speech -- freely speak what you think, even if I disagree with you. But you tell me that the US supports burning the enemy media and killing its civilian employees because they spread unfavorable things about us???

In the end, it comes down to MORALS. OBL flew planes into the WTC and killed 3000 innocent -- bad thing to do. Clinton threw tomahawk into the TV building and killed 16, luckily there were not 500 people as it could be inside. Same shit in my mind -- both are cold blooded murderers!
Your beef is with the International Committee of the Red Cross which has compiled a list of objectives considered to be of generally recognized military importance within the meaning of Art. 48 of the Geneva Conventions, including “the installations of broadcasting and television stations“.
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      05-08-2007, 08:40 PM   #124
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Why would you ask a robot, someone who thinks there is nothing outside of the USA and that nothing else matters, and someone who's never been outside of the USA and middle east (on assignment) question like that.

Of course all we did is justified, great and the whole world loves and respects Bush and Americans...
Yeah, you don't want to ask that question to someone who has actually been there.

You also don't want to ask me about any other place I have been like South and Central America, Central Asia, Europe, and North Africa.
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      05-08-2007, 09:32 PM   #125
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Bush is a good man, he's trying to do the right thing - we all make mistakes and i'm not implying I believe this whole thing with Iraq is a mistake, but hindsight is 20/20, only time will tell. Half the people who critisize the the President aren't in his shoes and none of us really know whats going on behind the scenes, we aren't the CIA...etc
aaaa, I have a tear in my eye now.
He's a fuckin moron, liar and murderer
And he doesn't give a shit about you...otherwise he would have served this country when called upon and then use wise experience before putting us in this mess...
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      05-08-2007, 09:34 PM   #126
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Yeah, you don't want to ask that question to someone who has actually been there.

You also don't want to ask me about any other place I have been like South and Central America, Central Asia, Europe, and North Africa.
Hey, I had a layover in Kuala Lumpur, but I don't consider it "being there"...
And even if you were there ...15 years ago, those were times when the US had some respect in the world -- today, they consider us the worst scum...unfortunately...all because the politics
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      05-08-2007, 10:14 PM   #127
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Hey, I had a layover in Kuala Lumpur, but I don't consider it "being there"...
And even if you were there ...15 years ago, those were times when the US had some respect in the world -- today, they consider us the worst scum...unfortunately...all because the politics
You amaze me how you believe you know absolutely anything about where I have been in my life. It is really irrelevant to the discussion as is the current popularity of the US.
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      05-09-2007, 08:21 AM   #128
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You amaze me how you believe you know absolutely anything about where I have been in my life. It is really irrelevant to the discussion as is the current popularity of the US.
Actually, I don't think I know anything about your travels and your life, however, some things are obvious -- a 35 year old soldier that thinks he's seen it all, yet, had enough time to serve (at least twice) in Iraq, Afghanistan, I am not sure if you also mentioned the first Gulf War as one of your enormous experiences... Yet, still enough time to raise the family, prepare and take the LSAT, visit 1/2 of the world -- from S America, Africa, Asia, Europe, talk to general population in all of those regions, get a realistic picture about all of them --> ALL that in last 5-6 years (except the family and 1st war thing) + in the last 6-8 months that I chatted with you you have been simply sitting in Georgia and typing this crap.

I mean, the 2nd grader can add up things and draw conclusions.

I like chatting with (against, most of the time) you, and I do have respect for you and your thoughts, but realistically, if you were trully in a REAL combat and saw all the destruction, women and children being killed, and your fellow soldiers being killed or wounded, you would have never taken the same (positive) position on the War as the viable solution for solving world issues, and this administration knows nothing else but wars and violence.

I was forced to engage in the Balkan wars before I left my country and realized what it meant and what a nasty picture it paints.
Ever since the Iraq thing, I tried to hear the other side -- Asians, Europeans, Central Americans, Australians during my travels -- just because of people like you -- brainwashed, one sided -- stuck!
And simply said -- vast, vast, vast majority (I'd say 19 of 20 people I talked to) have very negative opinion about us and think bad about what we're doing... I can also tell you that I did similar travels in late 90's, early 2000 and the World's perception about us has turned areound 179 degrees...
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      05-09-2007, 08:30 AM   #129
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What are your feelings on Al Gore and John Kerry? Both of whom had lower grades at Harvard/Yale than W had at Yale.
They also are the products of social promotion who owe much to being born on third base. However they both seem to be "reality based" and mentally stable, which are things I like to see in elected officials regardless of party.

You probably think that I am a Democrat. If so you are wrong. I am, as my wife puts it, a "recovering Republican".

http://reason.com/
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      05-09-2007, 08:38 AM   #130
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They also are the products of social promotion who owe much to being born on third base. However they both seem to be "reality based" and mentally stable, which are things I like to see in elected officials regardless of party.

You probably think that I am a Democrat. If so you are wrong. I am, as my wife puts it, a "recovering Republican".

http://reason.com/
In my case, I don't think much about the politicians but their ideas (and unfortunately promises). Al Gore should remain out of politics. He has some valuable views about things outside of political scene, but, bad for him, politics always gets involved...
John Kerry did not know how to play against a very weak and dumb candidate (Bush), therefore, lost.
They all had their ideas and promises. Bush had many during the 200 campaign and did NOTHING about them. He got re-elected in 2004, with more promises, aqnd nothing so far. As he would say in one of his speaches -- "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me..." He did it!
I guess we will never know what would have happened if Kerry were in the office in last 2 years, we can speculate -- it would be less talk and spending on this damned war, more talk and spending for education, social security reforms, medical... The economy would probably be in the same state as it is now, no matter if Kerry, Bush or I were in the office. I am sure the gas prices would not be where they are today...

As for the candidates attending Harvard/Yale/Princeton...nothing new about it -- it runs in the family. But that does not mean that they are really capable of handling the IVY league schools. W is a perfect example of it as he cannot put together a simple sentence without messing things up. He either bought his way through the college or Harvard is really heavily exaggerated thing...
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      05-09-2007, 10:22 AM   #131
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aaaa, I have a tear in my eye now.
He's a fuckin moron, liar and murderer
And he doesn't give a shit about you...otherwise he would have served this country when called upon and then use wise experience before putting us in this mess...
You relize you're slandering the President without any proof or cause whatsoever. People like you are the reason the Democratic party is held in such low regard in America today.
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However they both seem to be "reality based" and mentally stable, which are things I like to see in elected officials regardless of party.
Gore reality based and mentally stable? After what he's said and done about global warming? I think not.
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      05-09-2007, 10:36 AM   #132
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dr325i, how do you know that ganeil is 35 years old?
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