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      05-07-2007, 11:15 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
The US is the most discriminate combatant in the history of the world. We have led the way in the development of precision guided munitions and employ them in the greatest numbers. Occasionally those munitions fail or are improperly aimed but overall they result in a substantial reduction in the level of collateral damage. Compare the collateral damage done by the Russians in Chechnya to that in Iraq.

War is an ugly, violent but often necessary business. Civilians should never be intentionally targeted but if the enemy chooses to co-locate their forces or assets with civilians, the responsibility for the resultant civilian casualties lies solely with them.
I don't remember the enemy putting anything in Chinese Embassy, Television Building, Sofia house (100+ miles away from Serbia), Iraqui building that we had a credible info Saddam was in, then confirmed later that he was not even in the same town...

Yep, war is ugly, yep, shit happens, but when shit happens over, and over and we kill thousands of innocen, not a few, not a hundred then someone should be responsible -- either the precision weapon maker, or the Intel or the leader him/herself.

By the way if we're rescuing the world wrom hell and wrong-doers -- how come we did not stop Russia from wiping off Chechnia??? I mean, if we have balls to deal with "powers" like Serbia and Iraq, what is stopping us with dealing with Russia, after all, "we're the only remaining super-power" aren't we???
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      05-07-2007, 11:25 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
I don't remember the enemy putting anything in Chinese Embassy, Television Building, Sofia house (100+ miles away from Serbia), Iraqui building that we had a credible info Saddam was in, then confirmed later that he was not even in the same town...

Yep, war is ugly, yep, shit happens, but when shit happens over, and over and we kill thousands of innocen, not a few, not a hundred then someone should be responsible -- either the precision weapon maker, or the Intel or the leader him/herself.

By the way if we're rescuing the world wrom hell and wrong-doers -- how come we did not stop Russia from wiping off Chechnia??? I mean, if we have balls to deal with "powers" like Serbia and Iraq, what is stopping us with dealing with Russia, after all, "we're the only remaining super-power" aren't we???
State owned and controlled media, whether television or radio, has always been considered a legitimate military target. You may disagree but that is the way it is.

Intelligence is not an exact science and it never will be. Military and political leaders make decisions on the best information available. If that information is wrong, steps should be made to find out why it is wrong but it should never handcuff leaders from making decisions in the future.

Your point about Saddam illustrates my point about precision weapons. He was not in the specific building we thought he was, but he was in that portion of the city. Instead of laying waste to the entire neighborhood, which was well within our capability, we restricted our strike to a single building.

Again, the proposition that because you cannot or will not try to end all the evil in the world, you cannot try to end some of it is irrational.
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      05-07-2007, 12:11 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post

Again, the proposition that because you cannot or will not try to end all the evil in the world, you cannot try to end some of it is irrational.
What you refer to as 'evil' is an example of the hypocrisy that exists in our government today. I could argue that millions of Africans are subject to 'evil' by genocide and starvation and that North Korea is much more of a threat to us than Iraq could ever be. Yet we won't do anything in either to these 'evil' forces because there is no money to be made in it(readil) Look at all the wars that the United States has engaged in since WWII and you wil see some people getting very rich. I understand that nations have to protect their interests abroad, and there are legitimate reasons for invading countries, but don't try to tell me you're saving people from some dictator when all your really doing is grabbing resources before the Chinese or somebody else steps into the region. Besides, if Saddam was such a threat, why was Rumsfeld shaking his hand the year before we invaded...The government is counting on citizens having or short term memories or just being too busy to care:mad:
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      05-07-2007, 12:42 PM   #92
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The government is counting on citizens having or short term memories or just being too busy to care:mad:
Exactly!
Plus playing the fear game helps...
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      05-07-2007, 12:45 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
State owned and controlled media, whether television or radio, has always been considered a legitimate military target. You may disagree but that is the way it is.

Intelligence is not an exact science and it never will be. Military and political leaders make decisions on the best information available. If that information is wrong, steps should be made to find out why it is wrong but it should never handcuff leaders from making decisions in the future.

Your point about Saddam illustrates my point about precision weapons. He was not in the specific building we thought he was, but he was in that portion of the city. Instead of laying waste to the entire neighborhood, which was well within our capability, we restricted our strike to a single building.

Again, the proposition that because you cannot or will not try to end all the evil in the world, you cannot try to end some of it is irrational.
I tell him the concerns about killing thousands of innocent -- the ROBOT tells me what the USA book rule says. And it is ONLY in US books that the TV station -- spreading the FREEDOM OF SPEACH protected BS is a valid military target! I am sure that there was at least ONE news agency or media house in the twin towers, though... Although any innocent civilian death CANNOT be justified -- PERIOD!, maybe the other side read the US military books and attacked the "legitimate military target..."
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      05-07-2007, 01:06 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
Exactly!
Plus playing the fear game helps...
Fear and Religion are the tools of a Machiavellian (sp?) governement to keep the masses in check. The Bush administration follows these principles to the letter...See how easily he juxtaposes God into his speeches when he refers to us and the use of the term 'evil' for our current enemies.
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      05-07-2007, 02:44 PM   #95
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> We have led the way in the development of precision guided munitions and employ them in the greatest numbers.

Yes, but this is relatively useless. You don't win a war by explosive landscaping. If you've bombed all approved targets and you've still not won the war, all you can do is bomb all the targets again or put people on the ground.

And when you put people on the ground, they tend to die a lot easier then when you're doing long range or near-orbital bombardments.

> Military and political leaders make decisions on the best information available.

Very true... But those decisions are often towards a different goal than what they want the public to believe.

> Again, the proposition that because you cannot or will not try to end all the evil in the world, you cannot try to end some of it is irrational.

Honestly, ganeil, do you believe the war in Iraq is Righteous?

Do you think the average Iraqi agrees?

Of the 6-billion something people, do you think more people agree with you or disagree with you. If they disagree with you, does that make you wrong?
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      05-07-2007, 02:56 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
The US is the most discriminate combatant in the history of the world. We have led the way in the development of precision guided munitions and employ them in the greatest numbers. Occasionally those munitions fail or are improperly aimed but overall they result in a substantial reduction in the level of collateral damage.
Tell that to Iraquis who live near one of these buildings when a 500lb bomb hits it- even if it doesnt kill or maim some innocent civilians you create way more people that are afraid and hateful of the US for every potential terrorist that is killed. The 'hearts and minds' cannot be won with precision guided weapons, the people need to see genuine change and a more prosperous lifestyle than under Saddam- which we've done a terrible job of by all measurements.
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      05-07-2007, 03:10 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by nightops View Post
The 'hearts and minds' cannot be won with precision guided weapons, the people need to see genuine change and a more prosperous lifestyle than under Saddam- which we've done a terrible job of by all measurements.
The Iraqi economy is booming, more and more zones come under full Iraqi protection every day and I just read an article about how a bunch of Iraqi religious leaders were calling for an end to the anti-coalition violence because of how safe their region has become lately. Slow process, as always, but working nonetheless.
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shit, if i had that kind of money id buy a gtstreet for monday, an ascari a10 for tuesday, a DBS for wednesday and id just ride jessica alba the rest of the week.
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      05-07-2007, 03:26 PM   #98
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I really hope to see this happening, but this is counter to all the information I'm seeing about Iraq. Maybe this is the media exaggerating the bad over the positive but I doubt it...
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      05-07-2007, 03:49 PM   #99
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MSNBC, the mother of all private mass-media, has credible evidence that the Iraqi economy is booming. So, violence IS the proper vehicle of progress! Here, read this magnificent piece of journalism:

"Civil war or not, Iraq has an economy, and—mother of all surprises—it's doing remarkably well. Real estate is booming. Construction, retail and wholesale trade sectors are healthy, too, according to a report by Global Insight in London. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce reports 34,000 registered companies in Iraq, up from 8,000 three years ago. Sales of secondhand cars, televisions and mobile phones have all risen sharply. Estimates vary, but one from Global Insight puts GDP growth at 17 percent last year and projects 13 percent for 2006. The World Bank has it lower: at 4 percent this year. But, given all the attention paid to deteriorating security, the startling fact is that Iraq is growing at all."

"There's even a positive spin to be put on corruption. Money stolen from government coffers or siphoned from U.S. aid projects does not just disappear. Again, says Farid Abolfathi, a Global Insight analyst, it's the "trickledown" effect. Such "underground activity" is the most dynamic part of Iraq's economy, he says. "It might not be viewed as respectable. But in reality, that's what puts money in the hands of the little people."

So civil war or not, Iraq is better of without Saddam! Under Saddam, only his party activists had cellphones, no one had secondhand cars, and no one was putting money stolen from the government into private business. If what's happening is not a progress, I don't know what is. Very soon every Iraqi will have a sizeable mortgage to pay off, an X-Box 360, a real choice between McDonalds, Burger King and Wendy's (it's a confirmed fact that no such choice was available under Saddam's rule), and the right to bear and discharge firearms (everyone has the right to kill insurgents). Isn't that amazing?? And some people here have the balls to suggest that the war was not justified? Shame on you!
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      05-07-2007, 04:40 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by nightops View Post
I really hope to see this happening, but this is counter to all the information I'm seeing about Iraq. Maybe this is the media exaggerating the bad over the positive but I doubt it...
Eureka, I think he may be getting it.
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shit, if i had that kind of money id buy a gtstreet for monday, an ascari a10 for tuesday, a DBS for wednesday and id just ride jessica alba the rest of the week.
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      05-07-2007, 05:18 PM   #101
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Eureka, I think he may be getting it.
but I don't think you're getting it...
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      05-07-2007, 05:51 PM   #102
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but I don't think you're getting it...
Exactly, I appreciate a positive spin on things, but lets be realistic, people are still dying at an alarming rate. I really hope that things are getting better, but a lack of credible press proving that leaves me doubting. And keep in mind, this is the same press that exalted the invasion and the 'shock and awe'
bombings, so they're more than likely painting a rosier picture than the truth...unfortunately, people believe what they want to believe, and this thread is living proof of that.
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      05-07-2007, 05:59 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by ATG View Post
Very soon every Iraqi will have a sizeable mortgage to pay off, an X-Box 360, a real choice between McDonalds, Burger King and Wendy's (it's a confirmed fact that no such choice was available under Saddam's rule), and the right to bear and discharge firearms (everyone has the right to kill insurgents). Isn't that amazing?? And some people here have the balls to suggest that the war was not justified? Shame on you!
See, this is how you win 'hearts and minds'..If we could put a 7-11 on every corner and a Playstation in the hands of every Iraqi youth, they'd forget about shooting at us and be in the same boat as us We've got the best psychological weapons at our fingertips, and it's way cheaper than sending bombs and troops...
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      05-07-2007, 09:58 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by nightops View Post
Exactly, I appreciate a positive spin on things, but lets be realistic, people are still dying at an alarming rate. I really hope that things are getting better, but a lack of credible press proving that leaves me doubting. And keep in mind, this is the same press that exalted the invasion and the 'shock and awe'
bombings, so they're more than likely painting a rosier picture than the truth...unfortunately, people believe what they want to believe, and this thread is living proof of that.
Media exaggerates. OMG look how good it is then OMG look how bad. They wouldn't have viewers/readers if they said "Well, it's kind of a so-so affair at the moment, things going both ways." Remember the 3 S's of media. Sex, Suffering and Silver. I suppose the 4th S is Success but you don't hear that mentioned as much.
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shit, if i had that kind of money id buy a gtstreet for monday, an ascari a10 for tuesday, a DBS for wednesday and id just ride jessica alba the rest of the week.
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      05-08-2007, 06:29 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by FirstClass View Post
Media exaggerates. OMG look how good it is then OMG look how bad. They wouldn't have viewers/readers if they said "Well, it's kind of a so-so affair at the moment, things going both ways." Remember the 3 S's of media. Sex, Suffering and Silver. I suppose the 4th S is Success but you don't hear that mentioned as much.
If you're such a genius, why are you then relying on the media links to prove your point??? Why don't you pack your shit and go check for yourself how great the economy and life is in Iraq, and how happy people over there are to have the liberators destroying their country and killing their neighbors, just because of the bad intel...
Or, why don't you go to China, Korea, Japan, Europe...even Canada and talk to people and see what they really think about our leaders and us in general...
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      05-08-2007, 08:25 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
While I am sure his degrees from Yale and Harvard do not compare to yours, he is smart enough to make millions of dollars and get himself elected President of the US twice.
If W had been born to a middle class American family he would be lucky to be selling insurance and driving a white Buick. He was and is a product of social promotion in its truest form.
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      05-08-2007, 08:34 AM   #107
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If W had been born to a middle class American family he would be lucky to be selling insurance and driving a white Buick. He was and is a product of social promotion in its truest form.
I mean -- a typical Robotic response -- you went to Harvard, so you must be smart... If he really went there because of his numbers and his brain power, he would be able to put together a whole sentence without choking or messing something up...
If he really did that well, he would have been able to point China on the World map in 2000 -- now they trained him...
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      05-08-2007, 04:36 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Max_! View Post
Yes, but this is relatively useless. You don't win a war by explosive landscaping. If you've bombed all approved targets and you've still not won the war, all you can do is bomb all the targets again or put people on the ground.

And when you put people on the ground, they tend to die a lot easier then when you're doing long range or near-orbital bombardments.
Who ever said that a war could be won by dropping precision munitions alone?

What does this comment have to do with anything we have been discussing?

Quote:
Very true... But those decisions are often towards a different goal than what they want the public to believe.
Do you have any evidence to substantiate this comment.

Quote:
Honestly, ganeil, do you believe the war in Iraq is Righteous?

Do you think the average Iraqi agrees?

Of the 6-billion something people, do you think more people agree with you or disagree with you. If they disagree with you, does that make you wrong?
Yes

Yes

No
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      05-08-2007, 04:43 PM   #109
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What you refer to as 'evil' is an example of the hypocrisy that exists in our government today. I could argue that millions of Africans are subject to 'evil' by genocide and starvation and that North Korea is much more of a threat to us than Iraq could ever be. Yet we won't do anything in either to these 'evil' forces because there is no money to be made in it(readil) Look at all the wars that the United States has engaged in since WWII and you wil see some people getting very rich. I understand that nations have to protect their interests abroad, and there are legitimate reasons for invading countries, but don't try to tell me you're saving people from some dictator when all your really doing is grabbing resources before the Chinese or somebody else steps into the region. Besides, if Saddam was such a threat, why was Rumsfeld shaking his hand the year before we invaded...The government is counting on citizens having or short term memories or just being too busy to care:mad:
What resources have we grabbed?

FYI: the picture of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam is from 1983. Not quite a year before the invasion.
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      05-08-2007, 04:47 PM   #110
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I tell him the concerns about killing thousands of innocent -- the ROBOT tells me what the USA book rule says. And it is ONLY in US books that the TV station -- spreading the FREEDOM OF SPEACH protected BS is a valid military target! I am sure that there was at least ONE news agency or media house in the twin towers, though... Although any innocent civilian death CANNOT be justified -- PERIOD!, maybe the other side read the US military books and attacked the "legitimate military target..."
I wasn't aware that Protocol 1 of the Geneva Conventions was a USA book rule??
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