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      05-04-2007, 09:59 PM   #23
dr335is
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
This is one of my favorite dubious arguments:

If you are unwilling or unable to correct all of the world's problems, it therefore follows that you should not attempt to solve any.
Oh, I am sorry, somehow I missed that we SOLVED Iraqi or ANY other World problem lately.

Anywhere we put our foot in -- the situation only got worse.
Examples -- Balkans, Middle East, Gulf, NK, Taiwan/China...
Let me quickly clarify the Taiwan/China thing -- I just learned that last week in China. It was all OK (stable you may say) until we fuc*ed up and bombed Chinese embassy in Belgrade, Serbia. And arrogantly said -- well, shit happens. Because of that Chinese gov't said -- OK we'll fu8k now with your aly closest to us -- Taiwan.
The rest of examples are obvious.

In the future, I'd suggest for the USA to actually...NOT ATTEMPT solving anything but our own problems... Everyone will be happier...
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      05-04-2007, 10:23 PM   #24
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Leadership as you (wish) to describe means producing success.
GW has not produced a single one so far -- in 6 years.

That is not my definition of leadership...
There are too many successes to list.
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Bush should go to the war crimes tribunal and rotten with Saddam, Milosevic and other world's manipulators...
That's ridiculous. No matter how much you disagree with his policies you can't compare him to those who authorized wholesale slaughter of their own people. I can't honestly believe that even the most radical liberal would say something like that. Alas, the sad state of left-wing lunacy these days.
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      05-04-2007, 10:39 PM   #25
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...''Alas, the sad state of left-wing lunacy these days. ''....

sad, but true...
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      05-04-2007, 10:41 PM   #26
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There are too many successes to list.

That's ridiculous. No matter how much you disagree with his policies you can't compare him to those who authorized wholesale slaughter of their own people. I can't honestly believe that even the most radical liberal would say something like that. Alas, the sad state of left-wing lunacy these days.
He authorized the same thing (PUBLICALY), but he calls them the "colleteral damange" therefore all is cool? I disagree with that...
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      05-04-2007, 10:43 PM   #27
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Remind me, what was the legal justification?
Exactly, there was none, with the exception of the "spiderman of the world" syndrome.
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      05-04-2007, 10:48 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
This is one of my favorite dubious arguments:

If you are unwilling or unable to correct all of the world's problems, it therefore follows that you should not attempt to solve any.
What makes you or "the American people" that you are attempting to impersonate to believe that this country has the "God given" mission to correct the world's problems? Are we the second coming? This smells so similar to "justifications" for medieval crusades ...
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      05-04-2007, 10:57 PM   #29
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      05-04-2007, 11:45 PM   #30
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Allow me to address your mistakes one by one.

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Originally Posted by ATG View Post
What a bunch of conservative big brother bullshit! Iraq was the only secular state in the Middle East...
That would be a true statement if only Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Bahrain, and Yemen to name a few were not secular states in the Middle East.

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...Now, thanks to the unilateral decision of the U.S.,
Another true statement if only the UK, Australia, Poland, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Czech Republic, Romania, Spain, Georgia, and dozens of others were not members of the coalition that overthrew the Ba'athist regime in Iraq.

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not sanctioned by the U.N.,
Except for UNSCR 678, 687, and 1441.

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there is a very realistic chance that Iraq will turn into a carbon copy of Iran -- a muslim fundamentalists country. is that the desired outcome?
No, that is one reason it is imperative we do all we can to stabilize the elected government.

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That 200 people were killed 25 years ago does not justify invasion of another country that occurred in clear disregard of the decision of the majority of the U.N. member countries.
Nothing in international law leaves issues of war and peace up to a majority vote in the UN.


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G.W. may have wanted to play the role of "exorcist" and justify the intelligence's failures that led to 911 (don't start blaiming Clinton here) or, as one of my friends nicely put it (a republican BTW), Iraq was just a "low hanging fruit" that we could and did grab.
A decision backed by overwhelming majorities of both Houses of Congress.

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When will the people in this country stop living by fairy tales and believing that we are the "spiderman" of the world?? Where did that "duty" to invade Iraq come from? Actually, "justification" as you put it, is a much better word, because it's possible to justify almost everything, especially after the fact. It's simple: just put the batman and spiderman rhetoric together, spice it up by the horrific story of what could have happened, and learn to skillfully use words "may," "if," "reasonable belief," "axis of evil," "probable," etc.
This is so unintelligible that I cannot respond. Maybe if I read more comic books as a child.
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      05-04-2007, 11:49 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by ATG View Post
t's funny that now the supporters of the war try to focus on the "evil" nature of Saddam's regime. I clearly remember that back in 2002 and 2003 the main reason for the invasion was "credible evidence that Iraq may possess weapons of mass destruction." But see "justification"....
The reasons for the war were clearly explained by the President in a number of speeches, most prominently one in Cincinnati on 7 October 2002 and the congressional resolution authorizing the war. I suggest you read them both.
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      05-04-2007, 11:53 PM   #32
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The war in Iraq will end. Veto all you want, it will end. Lets talk about stem cell research
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      05-04-2007, 11:57 PM   #33
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Remind me, what was the legal justification?
In US law that would be the Congressional Resolution authorizing the use of force.

Under international law, UN Security Council Resolution 678 authorized the all necessary means to enforce Resolution 660 and all subsequent resolutions pertaining to Iraq. Those subsequent resolutions would include 687, the cease fire resolution which 1441 found Iraq in material breach of.
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      05-05-2007, 12:03 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by ATG View Post
What makes you or "the American people" that you are attempting to impersonate to believe that this country has the "God given" mission to correct the world's problems? Are we the second coming? This smells so similar to "justifications" for medieval crusades ...
You are an amazingly ignorant person. When have I or anyone else stated that we have a God given mission to correct the world's problems? Try to stick with reality.
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      05-05-2007, 12:25 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
Anywhere we put our foot in -- the situation only got worse.
Examples -- Balkans, Middle East, Gulf, NK, Taiwan/China...
Let me quickly clarify the Taiwan/China thing -- I just learned that last week in China. It was all OK (stable you may say) until we fuc*ed up and bombed Chinese embassy in Belgrade, Serbia. And arrogantly said -- well, shit happens. Because of that Chinese gov't said -- OK we'll fu8k now with your aly closest to us -- Taiwan.
The rest of examples are obvious.

In the future, I'd suggest for the USA to actually...NOT ATTEMPT solving anything but our own problems... Everyone will be happier...
I am sure the Croats, Kosovars, and Bosnians that are no longer being slaughtered by Milosevic's Serbian thugs would not be happier. Nor would the Afghan women who are no longer stoned to death for having the effrontery to go to school. Nor would the Kurds who are no longer being gassed or fed into wood chippers.

Your fantasy version of the causes of the current PRC-ROC is interesting but completely contrary to the evidence. The 1995-1996 Taiwan Straits crises was precipitated by PLA missile tests in the Straits and occurred well before the 1999 Belgrade bombing.
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      05-05-2007, 02:41 AM   #36
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> I don't want to be identified as "the same as" someone who barely has 30% of people's support in the country he was elected to lead...

You've got guns. Fix it.

> The reasons for the war were clearly explained by the President in a number of speeches,

Bush jr stormed into Iraq for what Saddam did to Bush sr. All other reasons are just excuses. He was out to show that asshole for all the world to see.

Saddam is dead now, but I'm not sure Bush's personal vendetta is worth the lives of so many people.

> I am sure the Croats, Kosovars, and Bosnians that are no longer being slaughtered

There was a lot less torturing and murdering going on in Iraq before it was invaded. Women had rights, children could go to school, people where relatively happy.

If you look at body count and number of people tortured, Saddam was a bastard but Bush is worse.

But, you know, I don't really care. It's your brothers and sisters bush is sending to the slaughter house.
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      05-05-2007, 03:11 AM   #37
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i haven't read everybody's responses... but to me the results will be obvious...

power vacuums often lead to civil war/strife within the country... i mean we're already seeing this now as iraqis have become more and more segregated... they're not only fighting US soliders but also each other, which makes the situation even more fragile.

i believe that keeping US soliders there does not necessarily improve the situation and only delays the collapse of the already damaged region. however any pullout will result in a swift breakdown of government and a rise in chaos. there isn't much of a way out of this mess without people dying... the iraqi people must unify together and want to remain a nation in order to reach stability--without it, their land will simply transform into a safe haven for terrorist activities...

in addition, we must also consider the oil that iraq holds. although some people might think we invaded iraq for oil-who really knows... we must realize that if this region were to become more and more unstable so that the oil could not be extracted, world economies will be influenced--most likely for the worse. gas prices would soar beyond imagination, and our luxury of 3 dollars a gallon would dramatically escalate. the US as it is has pretty cheap prices for gas in comparison to countries in Europe etc...
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      05-05-2007, 06:26 AM   #38
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It won't be chaos. A fundamentalist anti-western minority regime will quickly come to power.

Pull out and the whole region turns into a mix of north-korea and Iran and pretty soon you're paying more for fuel than for printer ink.

Really, there is no choice. US troops (and US casualties) in Iraq will be a reality for a very long time because the economy cannot withstand much higher oil prices.

But hey, Saddam is dead, right!
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      05-05-2007, 07:34 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
I am sure the Croats, Kosovars, and Bosnians that are no longer being slaughtered by Milosevic's Serbian thugs would not be happier. Nor would the Afghan women who are no longer stoned to death for having the effrontery to go to school. Nor would the Kurds who are no longer being gassed or fed into wood chippers. .
You have no f'n idea what are you talking about --- the Balkans, so stop being smart and stop reading the CNN, and face the reality. It was the religious and ethnic war -- both sides were slaughtered. In the end -- "Milosevic's Serbia" is a 1/3 of a size it used to be, so...

As for the Afghan women -- are you actually following the latest developments???

Kurds -- how many dead over 20 years of Saddams rule -- let me exagerate and say 100k. Still a small chunk as compared to the "colleteral damage" caused by the cowboy in 5 years...

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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Your fantasy version of the causes of the current PRC-ROC is interesting but completely contrary to the evidence. The 1995-1996 Taiwan Straits crises was precipitated by PLA missile tests in the Straits and occurred well before the 1999 Belgrade bombing.
It was always tense, but China was willing to compromise.
The compromise is over as soon as we screwed up the things...
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      05-05-2007, 07:35 AM   #40
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You are an amazingly ignorant person. When have I or anyone else stated that we have a God given mission to correct the world's problems? Try to stick with reality.
Everyone that disagrees with you is an ignorant person. Where did I hears that...ah, yes...the cowboy in the WH...

It does not work that way any more.
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      05-05-2007, 07:36 AM   #41
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Under international law, UN Security Council Resolution 678 authorized the all necessary means to enforce Resolution 660 and all subsequent resolutions pertaining to Iraq. Those subsequent resolutions would include 687, the cease fire resolution which 1441 found Iraq in material breach of.
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      05-05-2007, 11:03 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
You have no f'n idea what are you talking about --- the Balkans, so stop being smart and stop reading the CNN, and face the reality. It was the religious and ethnic war -- both sides were slaughtered. In the end -- "Milosevic's Serbia" is a 1/3 of a size it used to be, so...
There were atrocities on all sides but since we intervened on behalf of the Bosnians and the Kosovars, they are the people happy with our involvement, Try to keep up with your own arguments. Remember "Everyone will be happier"?

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As for the Afghan women -- are you actually following the latest developments???
More closely than you ever could

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Kurds -- how many dead over 20 years of Saddams rule -- let me exagerate and say 100k. Still a small chunk as compared to the "colleteral damage" caused by the cowboy in 5 years...
You are wrong on both counts. The number of Iraqi, not to mention Kurdish, civilians who have died as a result of US military strikes does not come near 100,000 while Saddam condemned well over 1,000,000 of his civilians to death.

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It was always tense, but China was willing to compromise.
The compromise is over as soon as we screwed up the things...
So, launching missiles into the Straits was the compromise?
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      05-05-2007, 11:04 AM   #43
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Everyone that disagrees with you is an ignorant person. Where did I hears that...ah, yes...the cowboy in the WH...

It does not work that way any more.
Only those who make ignorant statements.
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      05-05-2007, 11:26 AM   #44
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> while Saddam condemned well over 1,000,000 of his civilians to death.

If we take the estimates that between 500,000 and 1,000,000 Iraqis died during Saddam's rule (1979 - 2003), it yields an annual death rate of between 25,000 to 50,000 per year under Saddam.
Based on the figure of 100,000 Iraqi deaths from the invasion, it could be said that the new annual death rate under U.S. "rule" (or lack of) is somewhere around 66,000 Iraqis per year.

Annual deaths during Saddam rule: between 25,000 to 50,000
Annual deaths during U.S. Occupation: about 66,000

Talk about extermination.
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