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      05-16-2007, 06:48 AM   #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
I know you are really not good with numbers but 33 is more than 28. More nations have contributed to Iraq than have to Afghanistan.

I understand that Germany, France, and Canada (we forgot our friends to the north) did not but what I am trying to understand is why they are the determinant nations.

I do believe that you have stated the NATO operation against Serbia was illegitimate but all those nations supported it. Most confusing is your reasoning.
WOW, you're really playing dumb here...
33 nations like Estonis, Poland... or 28 like NATO members and so on...
33 nations where the USA carries 99% of the cost, 98% of the casualties and 95% of the troop contribution, or 28 countries where it is more even...

"The 2003 invasion of Iraq by the United States, Britain, Australia, Denmark, and Poland officially began on March 20, 2003. "
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_in...f_Iraq#_note-4

Wait, 1, 2, 3...that is 5 nations.

Talking about being BAD with numbers...

"As of August 23, 2006, there were 21 non-U.S. military forces contributing armed forces to the Coalition in Iraq. These 21 countries were: Albania, Armenia, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Estonia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Moldova, Mongolia, Poland, Romania, South Korea, and the United Kingdom. "

Source: http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita..._coalition.htm

And...

"However, in the August 23, 2006 Iraq Weekly Status Report (Slide 27) the State Department listed 27 foreign countries as contributing troops to the Coalition in Iraq. The additional four countries were Japan, Portugal, Singapore and the Ukraine. "

"Countries which have recently reduced or are planning to reduce their troop commitment: South Korea is planning to withdraw up to 1000 soldiers by the end of 2006. Poland withdrew 700 soldiers in Feb. 2005. Between May 2005 and May 2006, the United Kingdom reduced the size of its contingent by 1,300. The United Kingdom also is planning to reduce significantly the size of its contingent by the end of 2007, with an initial reduction of 1,600 troops followed by an additional 500 troops by end of 2007."

12 "soldiers" from Moldova, 37 from B&H, El Salvador, Romania...world powers...

When the Brits and Koreans reduce their force, there will be 170,000 of US troops and ~8000 of the rest...what a great support!

While others push for a peace, while others develop rapidly (China, India...), while others unite and develop another big competitor -- EU, all we think about is this War, and how to stop crazy spending and balance budget (BTW, that was most of the discussion on the Last night's Rep debate...).

As for the NATO thing in Serbia -- again, no SC authorized the the operation:
"NATO did not have the backing of the United Nations Security Council to use force in Yugoslavia "

The reason it was supported by the NATO forces (NOT ALL) was because it was in EU backyard, because the USA again did not want any diplomacy, and Europe saw the need to be involved on its territory, and of course, because the conflict in Kosovo was happening -- both sides suffered casualties, civilian population suffered...WAYYYYYY different than the situation in Iraq in 2003.
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      05-16-2007, 08:09 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by enfield View Post
This thread is useless.... It's the same story "My facts are facts and your facts are biases."

Look at the Nuremberg Principles - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Principles

The US broke each one of them in Iraq. Just because Saddam was a nasty dictator does not absolve the US for crimes against peace, crimes against humanity & war crimes. I was following orders is not an excuse. It was a war of choice and a War of Aggression.

War of aggression - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_aggression

Allies! Nazi Germany also had allies

The Iraqi's will be fine. They will figure it out just like the US figured it out in the US Civil War. Iraq was a safer place under Saddam - even for the Kurds and Shiites. Iraq was created by the UK. They made a mess of it. Before that it was 3 different Provinces of The Ottoman Empire and it was better off than the mess the Brits created.

Links about Iraq being better off before the US' War of Aggression.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n1649689.shtml
http://www.themercury.co.za/index.ph...icleId=3505428

Let's face it. Iraq is a MESS. There were no car bombings, Al-Qaeda etc. before ths US's war of choice and War of Aggression.

I know some people will call this post "nonsense" because it does not fit with their views. I ask these people - which is the only nation in the world that has used Nuclear weapons and which is the nation that is threatening to use Nuclear weapons against the non-nuclear state of Iran? Hint - it is the same nation!
Nice try but the Nuremberg Principles apply to individuals, not to nations. Finding an individual committed crimes against the peace presumes that a competent authority has determined that the war in question was one of aggression or violated international treaties, agreements or assurances. The competent authority entrusted to make such a determination is the UN Security Council as it did in 1990 with UN Security Council Resolution 660.

You may believe that the war in Iraq was illegal but your opinion has no bearing on international law.

Did you read the articles you linked to?


Quote:
"The American government made the right decision," commented No. 2, "probably weren't prepared very well and made so many mistakes. That's true, but I don't think they're here to hurt us or to use us or to take advantage of us, and I think it's in America's best interest to make things work in Iraq."

What's the most important thing they want people in the United States to understand about their lives?

"I personally want to thank America for what it did to Iraq," replied No. 2. "I want to thank every American who supported this war, and I know that even those who stood against it don't mean harm to us. But I want them to understand that what has been done is a good thing, indeed."

Asked if they would leave Iraq if they could, five of the seven said, "Yes, immediately. Can't get out of here fast enough," Smith reports.

But when asked if the United States should pull out now, says Smith, "Their voice was unanimous: 'No. America should finish what it started.' One even said, 'If you really want to see all-out civil war, America leaves, and that's what's gonna happen.' "
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      05-16-2007, 08:35 AM   #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
WOW, you're really playing dumb here...
33 nations like Estonis, Poland... or 28 like NATO members and so on...
Estonia and Poland ARE NATO members!

What are you talking about?

Quote:
"The 2003 invasion of Iraq by the United States, Britain, Australia, Denmark, and Poland officially began on March 20, 2003. "
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_in...f_Iraq#_note-4

Wait, 1, 2, 3...that is 5 nations.
I thought your entire point in bringing up this issue was to measure international support for the war. If so, the initial invasion is only part of the equation. Support of the occupation must be considered as well. Using your logic, the war in Afghanistan was less popular because only the US and UK took part in the opening air and ground campaign.
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Last edited by ganeil; 05-16-2007 at 08:55 AM.
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      05-16-2007, 08:40 AM   #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enfield View Post
I know some people will call this post "nonsense" because it does not fit with their views. I ask these people - which is the only nation in the world that has used Nuclear weapons and which is the nation that is threatening to use Nuclear weapons against the non-nuclear state of Iran? Hint - it is the same nation!
It is the same nation that defends Canada and the rest of the free world from attack too.
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      05-16-2007, 09:30 AM   #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
While others push for a peace, while others develop rapidly (China, India...), while others unite and develop another big competitor -- EU, all we think about is this War, and how to stop crazy spending and balance budget (BTW, that was most of the discussion on the Last night's Rep debate...)
Why is it so important for you to have the blessings of these other countries or the UN anyway? The UN resembles the bar scene in Star Wars. What makes you think any nation other than the United States knows what the United States needs to do for its own security?
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      05-16-2007, 09:46 AM   #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant View Post
Why is it so important for you to have the blessings of these other countries or the UN anyway? The UN resembles the bar scene in Star Wars. What makes you think any nation other than the United States knows what the United States needs to do for its own security?
Because we're just a small part of THE WORLD...
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      05-16-2007, 09:47 AM   #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Estonia and Poland ARE NATO members!

What are you talking about?



I thought your entire point in bringing up this issue was to measure international support for the war. If so, the initial invasion is only part of the equation. Support of the occupation must be considered as well. Using your logic, the war in Afghanistan was less popular because only the US and UK took part in the opening air and ground campaign.
If you're really saying that the support or whatever you call it for the Iraq war has increased over time either from outside or inside the SA, you must be really joking...
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      05-16-2007, 09:47 AM   #294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enfield View Post
I know some people will call this post "nonsense" because it does not fit with their views. I ask these people - which is the only nation in the world that has used Nuclear weapons and which is the nation that is threatening to use Nuclear weapons against the non-nuclear state of Iran? Hint - it is the same nation!
1) The use of nuclear weapons in WWII saved hundreds of thousands, perhaps even millions of lives.
2) Ummm, no we didn't.
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      05-16-2007, 09:49 AM   #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant View Post
Why is it so important for you to have the blessings of these other countries or the UN anyway? The UN resembles the bar scene in Star Wars. What makes you think any nation other than the United States knows what the United States needs to do for its own security?
Hitler used to go with the idea of extermining the Jews for the "security" of his nation...
Stalin tried to concur the East Europe for the "security" of his nation...
Milosevic tried...
And the people of their nations simply believed their propaganda...

Looks like it is just going on, and on...
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      05-16-2007, 09:53 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by FirstClass View Post
1) The use of nuclear weapons in WWII saved hundreds of thousands, perhaps even millions of lives.
2) Ummm, no we didn't.
And capitalism is dirty and Communism is great -- that is what I used to believe being brain washed at the age of 8 in a Communist country...

How do you know that using nukes in Japan and instantly murdering 250k people saved the world??? Japan agains the world --WOW!

How do you know that if the IDIOT did not verbally attach NK and Iran in 2001 they would not accelerate their Nuke ambitions today???

You're just guessing and that way justifying criminal acts against sovereign nations and killings of hundreds of thousands...
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      05-16-2007, 10:14 AM   #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
Hitler used to go with the idea of extermining the Jews for the "security" of his nation...
Stalin tried to concur the East Europe for the "security" of his nation...
Milosevic tried...
And the people of their nations simply believed their propaganda...

Looks like it is just going on, and on...
To equate the United States with those regimes is insane.
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      05-16-2007, 10:38 AM   #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
If you're really saying that the support or whatever you call it for the Iraq war has increased over time either from outside or inside the SA, you must be really joking...
You really should try to follow the conversation.

You made the following comment:

Quote:
...other UN members would have supported it -- other industrialized nations, not the ones that desperately need our help...
I merely pointed out that the nations that supported military operations that you concede had UN blessing, the first Gulf War and Afghanistan, is roughly equivalent to the nations that provided support to Iraqi Freedom.
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      05-16-2007, 11:21 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by pawarrant View Post
To equate the United States with those regimes is insane.
in our minds...yes...
So it is to relate THEIR regimes to the USA...

you see -- it is all relative...

Radical Islamics think that what they do and causes for what they do it are justified. We think they are insane and that life is all about money, work...and occasionally time with the families...
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      05-16-2007, 11:24 AM   #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
You really should try to follow the conversation.
I think you need to make up your mind MR. 168...


If you said that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
If so, the initial invasion is only part of the equation.
that tells me that AFTER the initial invasion the support increased, and kept going up. Otherwise I am not sure what your comment meant...
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      05-16-2007, 11:32 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by pawarrant View Post
To equate the United States with those regimes is insane.
Even more: it's a blasphemy!
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      05-16-2007, 11:33 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
And capitalism is dirty and Communism is great -- that is what I used to believe being brain washed at the age of 8 in a Communist country...

How do you know that using nukes in Japan and instantly murdering 250k people saved the world??? Japan agains the world --WOW!

How do you know that if the IDIOT did not verbally attach NK and Iran in 2001 they would not accelerate their Nuke ambitions today???

You're just guessing and that way justifying criminal acts against sovereign nations and killings of hundreds of thousands...
dr325i, where are you originally from?
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      05-16-2007, 11:34 AM   #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
that tells me that AFTER the initial invasion the support increased, and kept going up. Otherwise I am not sure what your comment meant...
Where is the implication that it kept going up?

You stated that the initial invasion was conducted by the armed forces of only 5 nations without considering the dozen or so other countries that contributed forces immediately after Saddam was deposed.
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      05-16-2007, 11:49 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by ATG View Post
What I think greatly distinguishes past super empires/conquerors from the present ones is hypocrisy. Romans and Brits were honest about their motives, but the "liberators" of the XX and XXI centuries are smart, cunning, and creative in masking their expansion campaigns.
No one paid attention to this post, so I'm reposting it. Just think about what I said with an open mind.

To continue the theme, every successful nation grows and inevitably needs to expand to be able to feed the millions of its happily existing citizens. It's not the question of evil motives or sinister ideologies, it's the question of economic survival, prosperity, and making money for the nation. So, every opportunity for economic expansion should be given a thoughtful consideration, political polishing, and realization if feasible. Americans are getting fatter and fatter (literally and figuratively speaking) and we need to sustain this economy of gigantic consumption. And sometimes we need our troops to support or pave the way for industrial outsourcing. A perfect time for an expansion campaign occurs every time when there is an opportunity to match our economic survival interest with the noble goal of eliminating some evil regime (and we know how to make the case for the need to remove a "dictator").

Also, let's assume the U.S. is the only super power in the world. There is no Russia and no countries harboring terrorists. And all of a sudden, a small-time dictator starts to rule a country like Mongolia with no natural resources (Ganeil, correct me if I'm wrong) except beef. Would the U.S. send troops to Mongolia in that scenario?
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      05-16-2007, 11:53 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
How do you know that using nukes in Japan and instantly murdering 250k people saved the world??? Japan agains the world --WOW!
I've told you before, more people died in the Battle of Okinawa alone than both nuclear bombings. A full scale invasion of Japan would have resulted in much higher casualties than the bombs did. How many more I can't say, but it's a fair certainty that it's in the hundreds of thousands and quite possibly the millions. Also, I never said it saved the world, Japan was going to lose no matter what, it's just that the nuclear bombs saved many lives in the process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
How do you know that if the IDIOT did not verbally attach NK and Iran in 2001 they would not accelerate their Nuke ambitions today???

You're just guessing and that way justifying criminal acts against sovereign nations and killings of hundreds of thousands...
And the bolded statement isn't guessing?
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      05-16-2007, 12:14 PM   #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATG View Post
...A perfect time for an expansion campaign occurs every time when there is an opportunity to match our economic survival interest with the noble goal of eliminating some evil regime (and we know how to make the case for the need to remove a "dictator").

Also, let's assume the U.S. is the only super power in the world. There is no Russia and no countries harboring terrorists. And all of a sudden, a small-time dictator starts to rule a country like Mongolia with no natural resources (Ganeil, correct me if I'm wrong) except beef. Would the U.S. send troops to Mongolia in that scenario?
I am not sure I accept your premise that the US conducts military operations for expansionist purposes. The last war we fought with clearly expansionist aims was the Spanish-American War over 100 years ago.

It would be difficult to argue that US participation in either world war resulted in major territorial gains for the US. Economically we benefited from the markets that opened up to our goods in Germany and Japan in the immediate post-war years but in the long-term they developed into major economic competitors.

As far as your scenario goes, absent an attack on the US, its interests or allies, or internal repression bordering on genocide, I do not think the US would interfere. I really can't think of an occasion where we have.

There are, unfortunately, plenty of places in the world (both rich and poor in natural resources) ruled by despots.
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      05-16-2007, 12:26 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
I am not sure I accept your premise that the US conducts military operations for expansionist purposes. The last war we fought with clearly expansionist aims was the Spanish-American War over 100 years ago.
That was the last war that was officially labeled that way -- and for good reasons. There was no U.N. in the XIXth century, the information was not passing around the globe in a few seconds, and the world community, frankly, was not very concerned about what was going on between the U.S. and Spain. Under those circumstances, there was no need to hide the expansionists motives of the States.

Now, everything is 100% different. You can't send even a few troops abroad without that being immediately noticed by the world community. So, any country needs to carefully prepare its "justification" for an invasion or else its screwed.

Quote:

It would be difficult to argue that US participation in either world war resulted in major territorial gains for the US. Economically we benefited from the markets that opened up to our goods in Germany and Japan in the immediate post-war years but in the long-term they developed into major economic competitors.
We don't need territorial gains. We need economic ones to sustain the economy of consumption that is getting out of control.
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      05-16-2007, 12:28 PM   #308
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dr325i, where are you originally from?
Serbia...former Yugo...
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