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      05-15-2007, 12:59 PM   #243
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I have requested numerous times to return to active duty & to Iraq. I would neither force my children nor prevent them from serving. I do have a son who has expressed an interest in USMA when he graduates & I would support him happily.
.
Quite frankly Bush doesn't deserve to have people like you under his command, but if you believe in the cause and are willing to make the sacrafice, you are ten times the person he is. My feeling is that they are using the military to further their own interests at enormous cost to the country but hugely profitable to certain corporations and defense contractors.

I don't think the Iraqis should be abandoned the way that Vietnam was, but unless there are some clear signs that the Iraquis can step up and make democracy work, I think it is inevitable. In Vietnam the Army did want to fight and repel communism, but what they really wanted was independence from foreign influence. Also, they didn't have the religious fanaticism and factions all fighting for control, which is going to make democracy that much harder to achieve.
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      05-15-2007, 01:20 PM   #244
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Since I am on a roll today, I'd like to offer to your attention a little explanation why both Ganeil and dr.325i are good guys.

Imagine there is a massively successful slaughter house run by some butcher. The butcher is a great guy: always smiles and looks happy, believes in God, loves his family, never cheat's on his wife (at least officially), keeps up with the humane ways of killing animals, etc. The butcher's name is Sam and some kids on the block call him Uncle Sam. He has two sons. One really loves his dad and wants to continue the slaughter house business because he perceives his dad as a person who does good both to the public (everyone needs meat) and the family (everyone needs money). In fact, the slaughter house and its operations make total logical sense to that son. That son is Ganeil. He likes tradition, order, and family values. There is the other son, though. He despises the father's business because he is for some strange reason focused on a harm to the animals (even if they are killed safely with "precision strikes"). He has no respect for family traditions and wants to be a veterinarian (oh my God!). That son is dr325i.

Can we blame any of those sons for their beliefs and aspirations? Not if our slaughter house is structured as a democracy. However, if dr325i takes control, the family values are gone and the slaughter house may turn into an animal hospital.
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      05-15-2007, 01:41 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by ATG View Post
Since I am on a roll today, I'd like to offer to your attention a little explanation why both Ganeil and dr.325i are good guys.

Imagine there is a massively successful slaughter house run by some butcher. The butcher is a great guy: always smiles and looks happy, believes in God, loves his family, never cheat's on his wife (at least officially), keeps up with the humane ways of killing animals, etc. The butcher's name is Sam and some kids on the block call him Uncle Sam. He has two sons. One really loves his dad and wants to continue the slaughter house business because he perceives his dad as a person who does good both to the public (everyone needs meat) and the family (everyone needs money). In fact, the slaughter house and its operations make total logical sense to that son. That son is Ganeil. He likes tradition, order, and family values. There is the other son, though. He despises the father's business because he is for some strange reason focused on a harm to the animals (even if they are killed safely with "precision strikes"). He has no respect for family traditions and wants to be a veterinarian (oh my God!). That son is dr325i.

Can we blame any of those sons for their beliefs and aspirations? Not if our slaughter house is structured as a democracy. However, if dr325i takes control, the family values are gone and the slaughter house may turn into an animal hospital.
made me laugh...
Now, I'm going to eat some RARE steak...
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      05-15-2007, 03:33 PM   #246
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God, you need more if this???

1) According to you (and Bush Admin), some resolution from 20 years ago simply applied to the situation in 2003, after:
- the inspectors WERE in Iraq, completely allowed to inspect anything and H Blix has submitted a clear report that stated either he needed more time or there was absolutely nothing found
- Bush Admin then went on and did a PPT presentation (no photos or satellite data) trying to convince the world that SH has mobile factories, and so on. None of it was ever found. So called "Iraqi Scientists" also confirmed stock piles of the WMD, and mobile labs and so on...NONE was ever found. Same (type of) witnesses that confirmed that SH gassed thousands during his regime. Of course he did the bad things, but number wise, still below the casualties in last 5 years...
- for 20 years, Iraq was controlled by the USA (and UK) establishing so called no-fly zones...
- NO current or NEW resolution was made allowing the attack on the sovereign country
- Security Council NEVER approved such a thing
I promised myself that I would not explain this to you again but here goes:

I apologize if the law gets in the way of your understanding of a legal issue.

Security Council Resolutions do not have expiration dates unless the Security Council specifically includes one.

UNSCR 678 (1990, a bit over 12 years before OIF, not 20 as you claim but I understand you don't use numbers literally) explicitly states that member states are authorized, "to use all necessary means to uphold and implement resolution 660 and all subsequent relevant resolutions..." There was no time limit set and there was no expiration date.

UNSCR 687 is one of those subsequent relevant resolutions and declared that the ceasefire would be based on acceptance by Iraq of the provisions of that resolution.

UNSCR 1441 (2002, a few months before OIF) stated explicitly that, "Iraq has been and remains in material breach of its obligations under relevant resolutions, including resolution 687."

So, to put it simply, in 1990 the Security Council told Iraq to comply or it would authorize the use of force.

In 1991, the Security Council told Iraq it would stop using force only if you comply with A, B, C, ....

In 2002, the Security Council said Iraq had failed to comply with A, B, C, ....

Hmmm..... I wonder what logically follows?? I know, FORCE!

What is the basis for your belief that any additional resolution was required?

Quote:
Things that are never clear to me:
1) Satellite Images: We have such a powerful satellite tech that we can basically see "Wal Mart" sign from up there. How come there was NO (CLOSE) satellite image of these labs?
Maybe because Iraq was taking active measures to avoid detection.

Quote:
2) Traces of Bio, Chem and Nuclear stuff. We all know that you cannot just simply pack and hide the WMD -- there are traces that remain (in the air, on the ground...) for years. What happened to those when Bush tried to convince the world about it?
You should really read David Kay's report. He found plenty of evidence of dormant programs. I would also remind you that some 500 shells full of mustard and sarin have been found.

Quote:
3) False Data -- Uranium from Africa, Al Qaeda connections...all that is now forgotten???
Iraq DID attempt to purchase yellow cake from Africa. Suggest you read the Butler Report which states,

We conclude that, on the basis of the intelligence assessments at the time, covering both Niger and the Democratic Republic of Congo, the statements on Iraqi attempts to buy uranium from Africa in the Government’s dossier, and by the Prime Minister in the House of Commons, were well-founded.

By extension, we conclude also that the statement in President Bush’s State of the Union Address of 28 January 2003 that:

The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.

was well-founded.
Iraq DID have pre-war ties with al-Qaeda. I am sure you would prefer a pre-Bush - Cheney cabal source for this so I would point you to the idictment the Clinton DOJ obtained against bin Laden in 1998 which stated, "Al Qaeda reached an understanding with the government of Iraq that al Qaeda would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al Qaeda would work cooperatively with the Government of Iraq."


Quote:
NK has been playing with the UN and USA and world community for years now -- at least 15... Does that give us the right to simply attack them, too? If yes, why didn't we - -they are certainly much bigger threat to our alies in the region (SK, Japan, Guam...), to us and to the World. They already showed us what they have... Remember, SH has never showed us anything...
What about Iran?
Why do you continue to try to advance the illogical argument that until you are capable and willing to confront all the evil in the world, you cannot confront any? It is a senseless argument.


Quote:
What about the USA??? We have been screwing around with the World -- basically most of the world had no support for us in last 5 years, we have been doing BAD things (according to the most of the world), we stepped out of Kyoto Agreement resorting to polution and bad things, we have the WMD -- does that mean that they have the right to attack us?

Now, give us the reason why all we did is legal?
We never ratified Kyoto so I am not sure how we stepped out of it. Every nation has the right to defend itself and its allies.
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      05-15-2007, 03:36 PM   #247
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wow! dr325i, I hope you didn't choke on that steak ...
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      05-15-2007, 03:41 PM   #248
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Also, two questions for Ganeil:

Did the U.S. ever err (in the 20th and 21st centuries) in any of its world liberation campaigns or foreign policy decisions related to the use of military force? If so, when and why?
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      05-15-2007, 03:44 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by nightops View Post
Quite frankly Bush doesn't deserve to have people like you under his command, but if you believe in the cause and are willing to make the sacrafice, you are ten times the person he is. My feeling is that they are using the military to further their own interests at enormous cost to the country but hugely profitable to certain corporations and defense contractors.
Thank you but soldiers don't have the luxury of choosing their commanders. Why do you think President Bush is less worthy than any former President? Don't take this the wrong way but I am not interested in what you feel, I am interested in what you think and the facts supporting the thought.

Quote:
I don't think the Iraqis should be abandoned the way that Vietnam was, but unless there are some clear signs that the Iraquis can step up and make democracy work, I think it is inevitable. In Vietnam the Army did want to fight and repel communism, but what they really wanted was independence from foreign influence. Also, they didn't have the religious fanaticism and factions all fighting for control, which is going to make democracy that much harder to achieve.
So how long do you think we should give them?
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      05-15-2007, 03:59 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by ATG View Post
Also, two questions for Ganeil:

Did the U.S. ever err (in the 20th and 21st centuries) in any of its world liberation campaigns or foreign policy decisions? If so, when and why?
I am not aware of any world liberation campaigns.

We have made plenty of foreign policy mistakes in the past 50 or so years.

Off the top of my head and in no particular order:
President Eisenhower's decision to train an army of Cuban exiles to overthrow Castro.

President Kennedy's abandonment of the Cuban forces during the Bay of Pigs invasion.

President Reagan's rescuing of Arafat from Beirut.

President Carter's failure to respond forcibly to the seizure of the US embassy.

President Kennedy's acquiescence (at a minimum) to the coup that overthrew Diem

US abandonment of South Vietnam.

President Clinton's signing Kyoto.
I am sure there are more but can't think of them right now.
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      05-15-2007, 04:02 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by ATG View Post
Since I am on a roll today, I'd like to offer to your attention a little explanation why both Ganeil and dr.325i are good guys...
I feel so much better now.
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      05-15-2007, 04:08 PM   #252
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I'm seeing an interesting trend here. Most of the recited mistakes were actually the decisions not to use force or to discontinue its use...

How about another mistake: signing the Partial Test Ban Treaty.
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      05-15-2007, 04:10 PM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
I feel so much better now.
Great! What can compare with a healing wonder of a written word?!
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      05-15-2007, 04:20 PM   #254
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And I really hope, that the current administration will learn from the mistakes of Kennedy and Carter, and make the right decisions about N.K. and Iran.
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      05-15-2007, 04:20 PM   #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
I am not aware of any world liberation campaigns.

We have made plenty of foreign policy mistakes in the past 50 or so years.

Off the top of my head and in no particular order:
President Eisenhower's decision to train an army of Cuban exiles to overthrow Castro.

President Kennedy's abandonment of the Cuban forces during the Bay of Pigs invasion.

President Reagan's rescuing of Arafat from Beirut.

President Carter's failure to respond forcibly to the seizure of the US embassy.

President Kennedy's acquiescence (at a minimum) to the coup that overthrew Diem

US abandonment of South Vietnam.

President Clinton's signing Kyoto.
I am sure there are more but can't think of them right now.
You forgot Clinton's withdrawal from Somalia following the "Blackhawk Down" incident. Somalia is an al Qaeda haven now.
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      05-15-2007, 04:20 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by ATG View Post
I'm seeing an interesting trend here. Most of the recited mistakes were actually the decisions not to use force or to discontinue its use...

How about another mistake: signing the Partial Test Ban Treaty.
Actually only 3 of the 7 fit your description but I understand your point.

I have no problem with the PTBT, it would be a mistake to ratify the CTBT.
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      05-15-2007, 04:24 PM   #257
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As always, math is your best weapon. But, if we get to the hair-splitting, it was actually 4 out of 7.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post

President Kennedy's abandonment of the Cuban forces during the Bay of Pigs invasion.

President Carter's failure to respond forcibly to the seizure of the US embassy.

President Kennedy's acquiescence (at a minimum) to the coup that overthrew Diem

US abandonment of South Vietnam.
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      05-15-2007, 04:38 PM   #258
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As always, math is your best weapon. But, if we get to the hair-splitting, it was actually 4 out of 7.
I think the mistake Kennedy made was in approving of the coup. Not sure how that one counts against me.
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      05-15-2007, 06:01 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
I promised myself that I would not explain this to you again but here goes:

I apologize if the law gets in the way of your understanding of a legal issue.

Security Council Resolutions do not have expiration dates unless the Security Council specifically includes one.

UNSCR 678 (1990, a bit over 12 years before OIF, not 20 as you claim but I understand you don't use numbers literally) explicitly states that member states are authorized, "to use all necessary means to uphold and implement resolution 660 and all subsequent relevant resolutions..." There was no time limit set and there was no expiration date.

UNSCR 687 is one of those subsequent relevant resolutions and declared that the ceasefire would be based on acceptance by Iraq of the provisions of that resolution.

UNSCR 1441 (2002, a few months before OIF) stated explicitly that, "Iraq has been and remains in material breach of its obligations under relevant resolutions, including resolution 687."

So, to put it simply, in 1990 the Security Council told Iraq to comply or it would authorize the use of force.

In 1991, the Security Council told Iraq it would stop using force only if you comply with A, B, C, ....

In 2002, the Security Council said Iraq had failed to comply with A, B, C, ....

Hmmm..... I wonder what logically follows?? I know, FORCE!

What is the basis for your belief that any additional resolution was required?



Maybe because Iraq was taking active measures to avoid detection.



You should really read David Kay's report. He found plenty of evidence of dormant programs. I would also remind you that some 500 shells full of mustard and sarin have been found.



Iraq DID attempt to purchase yellow cake from Africa. Suggest you read the Butler Report which states,

We conclude that, on the basis of the intelligence assessments at the time, covering both Niger and the Democratic Republic of Congo, the statements on Iraqi attempts to buy uranium from Africa in the Government’s dossier, and by the Prime Minister in the House of Commons, were well-founded.

By extension, we conclude also that the statement in President Bush’s State of the Union Address of 28 January 2003 that:

The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.

was well-founded.
Iraq DID have pre-war ties with al-Qaeda. I am sure you would prefer a pre-Bush - Cheney cabal source for this so I would point you to the idictment the Clinton DOJ obtained against bin Laden in 1998 which stated, "Al Qaeda reached an understanding with the government of Iraq that al Qaeda would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al Qaeda would work cooperatively with the Government of Iraq."




Why do you continue to try to advance the illogical argument that until you are capable and willing to confront all the evil in the world, you cannot confront any? It is a senseless argument.




We never ratified Kyoto so I am not sure how we stepped out of it. Every nation has the right to defend itself and its allies.
all that stuff on UN is a bunch of crap.
If it were true, other UN members would have supported it -- other industrialized nations, not the ones that desperately need our help...

Simple as that...
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      05-15-2007, 06:04 PM   #260
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We never ratified Kyoto so I am not sure how we stepped out of it.
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Originally Posted by ganeil
President Clinton's signing Kyoto.

Make up your mind soldier...
Did we sign it or not...

Or, you consider us only from 2000 and on?
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      05-15-2007, 06:05 PM   #261
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I think the mistake Kennedy made was in approving of the coup. Not sure how that one counts against me.
So, you're telling me that W has not made any (MAJOR) mistakes in your mind, but now the rest of the world hates us more than ever before????

Must be that jealousy that also made OBL do the 9-11 thing...
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      05-15-2007, 06:53 PM   #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
all that stuff on UN is a bunch of crap.
If it were true, other UN members would have supported it -- other industrialized nations, not the ones that desperately need our help...

Simple as that...
You ask for proof, proof was provided and you give a response like that. Obviously it is no use debating people like you that don't want to hear differing opinions.
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      05-15-2007, 06:56 PM   #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
So, you're telling me that W has not made any (MAJOR) mistakes in your mind, but now the rest of the world hates us more than ever before????

Must be that jealousy that also made OBL do the 9-11 thing...
I keep hearing from you how much everyone else in the world hates us. Explain the French election results last week.
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      05-15-2007, 07:13 PM   #264
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I keep hearing from you how much everyone else in the world hates us. Explain the French election results last week.
EDIT (my keyboard is dying...):
CHANGE...
same that will happen over here ina year and a half...
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