BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > General M3 Forum (E90 + E92 + E93)
 
GTB Performance
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-13-2011, 02:43 PM   #23
Sedan_Clan
Banned
 
Drives: '14 335i(prev.IB,AW M3's & X5)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: On 2 wheels clipping an apex!

Posts: 10,923
iTrader: (25)

Fun analogy, but....


....steroid use doesn't automatically produce a thoroughbred. You still have to work very hard to achieve results (..which is essentially the benefit that steroids provide; you recover faster, and you can go harder....longer). But I digress....




Quote:
Originally Posted by VVG View Post
1. You appear to be interpreting my post in a way that I never intended. That's okay, it happens.

2. All other things being equal (genetic potential, etc.) , the anabolic steroid user will have greater gains with less overall effort than the non-user.

3. Please refrain from making things personal. You have no clue who I am and what I may or may not know. This is light topic for discussion on an internet car forum, after all, not a doctoral thesis.

I agree that he may be taking the fun out of the analogy, but the information in bold is a big misconception. That is probably the reason why he targeted that aspect of your post.



.....Back to the discussion!

Last edited by Sedan_Clan; 10-13-2011 at 08:37 PM.
Sedan_Clan is offline   Brazil
0
Reply With Quote
      10-13-2011, 02:57 PM   #24
SchnellM3
Digger
 
SchnellM3's Avatar
 
Drives: 03 E46 M3, 09 E92 M3, 09 X6 50
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Pa

Posts: 2,616
iTrader: (5)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
Right. Until the next m3 comes out, has 450 hp, runs a 12.0 sec 1/4 mile at 120mph and gets 25mpg highway. Not to mention is a tune away from mid to low 11s.


I think its still too early to make statements as saying "I will not own another M3" and "Here I Come Porsche". Sure they are going down not one but several paths that they said they would never do (Including the name change ), but at the same time I'm not sure that they will let us down. They know what these cars mean to the faithful enthusiasts who have always bought them. I will be keeping my E92 no matter if the next generation blows it away and exceeds expectations or not, its very seldom that you can come across a car that for me at least I never get tired of. I love starring at it and I especially love hearing it come to life and pull through the gears.

Here's to hoping the F8x relieves all of our worries and continues the dominance of the E9x over the competition and we dont get roid rage
__________________
2009 E92 M3 /// Melbourne Red /// Fox Red /// M DKG

Full Innotech Exhaust - DINAN Intake - IND Engine Bay Appearance - IND Hand Stitched Boot Covers - and much more....
SchnellM3 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-13-2011, 03:07 PM   #25
Sedan_Clan
Banned
 
Drives: '14 335i(prev.IB,AW M3's & X5)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: On 2 wheels clipping an apex!

Posts: 10,923
iTrader: (25)

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
After the e9x, a lot of people are calling it quits.
Yeah, well many E46 owners "claimed" that they were "calling it quits" too. Many of them are now driving E9X M3's (..praising it in all of its melodious V8 glory.....praising it as the last of the true M3's, just as they did with the outgoing E46)! We have similar discussions EVERY SINGLE TIME a new model is released (..or on the verge of being released). A reasonable person should have a clue by now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
Right. Until the next m3 comes out, has 450 hp, runs a 12.0 sec 1/4 mile at 120mph and gets 25mpg highway. Not to mention is a tune away from mid to low 11s.
Agreed!
Sedan_Clan is offline   Brazil
0
Reply With Quote
      10-13-2011, 04:50 PM   #26
Totti
Troll
 
Totti's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 E92 M3
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posts: 1,192
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by VVG View Post
1. You appear to be interpreting my post in a way that I never intended. That's okay, it happens.

2. All other things being equal (genetic potential, etc.) , the anabolic steroid user will have greater gains with less overall effort than the non-user.

3. Please refrain from making things personal. You have no clue who I am and what I may or may not know. This is light topic for discussion on an internet car forum, after all, not a doctoral thesis.
__________________
BMW E92 M3 Coupe | Jerez Black | Fox Red Extended / Carbon Black Trim| Fully Loaded | Moonroof | 6MT | Gintani Sport
Quote:
Originally Posted by ES_TRADER
Use the stick like u would a manual. If that doesn't work, put it in D mode and put both hands at 10 and 2. If that doesn't work, just sit on your right hand.
Totti is offline   Italy
0
Reply With Quote
      10-13-2011, 05:07 PM   #27
positiveions
Lieutenant General
 
positiveions's Avatar
 
Drives: 09 MKV JETTA 2.5 & E90 M3 :)
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: La Verne, CA

Posts: 10,464
iTrader: (1)

Send a message via MSN to positiveions Send a message via Yahoo to positiveions
[quote=Doctor J;10603380
Forced induction is more like enlarging your digestive system so you can eat 60 hotdogs, taking extra digestive enzymes to help convert the hotdogs to ATP (energy) and having an extra large poop chute to crap out all the waste[/QUOTE]

Wrong
FI is like adding a O2 tank at 6 Liter, with a constant flow, and running with it. Guaranteed not run out of O2; hence "FI".
What you have just described is an internal state of an Engine.
positiveions is offline   Lebanon
0
Reply With Quote
      10-13-2011, 05:26 PM   #28
eamon
Captain
 
eamon's Avatar
 
Drives: 09 e92 335i, 2010 328i (sold)
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Dallas

Posts: 790
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
I think it's the perfect analogy for the S65. That engine was NEVER designed for boost. Boost significantly decreases engine longevity, just like steroids do to life. There'll never be concrete proof (on either case) some folks look for, but the sheer number of failed boosted engines so far is more than enough to prove that point . Heck, these engines seem to be marginal (main bearings mostly) even without boost . Good day gang.
My thoughts exactly. Boost or even supercharging put strain on the engine. It can't be that easy or else every manufacturer would have super quick cars coming off the assembly line. To me, reliability is a little more important than a 50hp bump. That's why I'm laying off on upping my boost, but I would be very interested to see how reliable these cars are. Coming from the manufacturer it must be pretty good, not like aftermarket options right?
__________________
black/black/black e92 loaded
Instagram: _eamon_
eamon is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-13-2011, 05:30 PM   #29
LarThaL
Colonel
 
LarThaL's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 M3
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: West Springfield, MA

Posts: 2,567
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Fun analogy, but....


....steroid use doesn't automatically produce a thoroughbred. You still have to work very hard to achieve results (..which is essentially the benefit that steroids provides; you recover faster, and you can go harder....longer). But I digress....







I agree that he may be taking the fun out of the analogy, but the information in bold is a big misconception. That is probably the reason why he targeted that aspect of your post.



.....Back to the discussion!

Okay...I didn't mean to imply that anabolic steroids will produce results with no effort. Nor did I mean to imply that FI motors require no engineering expertise.

However, to increase your bench press from 250 to 300lbs is much easier with the help of anabolic steroids. To take (for example) a 414hp 4 liter V8, and have it produce 480hp would be easier with forced induction than with by NA re-engineering.

I have a greater admiration for the athlete that does it without steroids just as I have a greater admiration for the NA motor design.
__________________
Precision tool: 2011 BMW ///M3
Sledgehammer: 2014 Audi S6

LarThaL is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-13-2011, 05:36 PM   #30
Sedan_Clan
Banned
 
Drives: '14 335i(prev.IB,AW M3's & X5)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: On 2 wheels clipping an apex!

Posts: 10,923
iTrader: (25)

Quote:
Originally Posted by eamon View Post
My thoughts exactly. Boost or even supercharging put strain on the engine. It can't be that easy or else every manufacturer would have super quick cars coming off the assembly line. To me, reliability is a little more important than a 50hp bump. That's why I'm laying off on upping my boost, but I would be very interested to see how reliable these cars are. Coming from the manufacturer it must be pretty good, not like aftermarket options right?
Boost on a fairly low compression motor isn't any more damaging than a high compression naturally aspirated motor. The AMOUNT of boost is the variable that will greatly affect reliability. There are plenty of turbocharged motors that are just as reliable as an NA motor; my aunt's turbocharged Chrysler LeBaron is one example. The problem that enthusiasts run into when dealing with boost is the ease in which it can make power (..Get bored? Up the boost! Bored again?.....up the boost......ad infinitum, until it goes POP!).
Sedan_Clan is offline   Brazil
0
Reply With Quote
      10-13-2011, 05:54 PM   #31
eamon
Captain
 
eamon's Avatar
 
Drives: 09 e92 335i, 2010 328i (sold)
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Dallas

Posts: 790
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Boost on a fairly low compression motor isn't any more damaging than a high compression naturally aspirated motor. The AMOUNT of boost is the variable that will greatly affect reliability. There are plenty of turbocharged motors that are just as reliable as an NA motor; my aunt's turbocharged Chrysler LeBaron is one example. The problem that enthusiasts run into when dealing with boost is the ease in which it can make power (..Get bored? Up the boost! Bored again?.....up the boost......ad infinitum, until it goes POP!).
I'll be honest, I don't know anything about the specifics of engines such as "compression" ratios, but aren't the current 335i boost levels already higher than most cars including the Chrysler that you mentioned? Like you said amount of boost is what greatly affects reliability, and stock you're pushing 8.5
__________________
black/black/black e92 loaded
Instagram: _eamon_
eamon is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-13-2011, 06:02 PM   #32
Sedan_Clan
Banned
 
Drives: '14 335i(prev.IB,AW M3's & X5)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: On 2 wheels clipping an apex!

Posts: 10,923
iTrader: (25)

Quote:
Originally Posted by eamon View Post
I'll be honest, I don't know anything about the specifics of engines such as "compression" ratios, but aren't the current 335i boost levels already higher than most cars including the Chrysler that you mentioned? Like you said amount of boost is what greatly affects reliability, and stock you're pushing 8.5
I believe that the 335i's compression ratio is 10.5:1 and the boost is 8.5 (..boosted BMW owners chime in here); the Chrysler is boosting 7 lbs. I believe, but with a much lower compression ratio. Left in stock form - and barring no HPFP issues - the BMW motor will likely last a very long time.
Sedan_Clan is offline   Brazil
0
Reply With Quote
      10-13-2011, 06:33 PM   #33
Erhan
Colonel
 
Erhan's Avatar
 
Drives: Cooper S
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Seattle

Posts: 2,466
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by eamon View Post
I'll be honest, I don't know anything about the specifics of engines such as "compression" ratios, but aren't the current 335i boost levels already higher than most cars including the Chrysler that you mentioned? Like you said amount of boost is what greatly affects reliability, and stock you're pushing 8.5
You can't simply say high boost = lower engine life. The materials and built quality are also a major contributor.
__________________
2011 MINI Cooper S
previous cars: E92 M3, Z4MC, Z4 Roadster, E36 328 Sedan
Erhan is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-13-2011, 06:35 PM   #34
clar
Captain
 
clar's Avatar
 
Drives: M5
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Singapore

Posts: 886
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
After the e9x, a lot of people are calling it quits.
And a lot of new customers will be taking over from the quitters. It's a natural order...
clar is offline   Singapore
0
Reply With Quote
      10-13-2011, 06:48 PM   #35
clar
Captain
 
clar's Avatar
 
Drives: M5
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Singapore

Posts: 886
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Yeah, well many E46 owners "claimed" that they were "calling it quits" too. Many of them are now driving E9X M3's (..praising it in all of its melodious V8 glory.....praising it as the last of the true M3's, just as they did with the outgoing E46)! We have similar discussions EVERY SINGLE TIME a new model is released (..or on the verge of being released). A reasonable person should have a clue by now.




Agreed!
Exactly! I can never understand these so called "purists." It's almost as if they feel a part of them has been betrayed. They are taking these things a little too personal and not accepting progress. Anyway, i have very little doubt that these people will think otherwise when the new M3 kicks dirt in their face while they rev the crap out of their NA M3 or whatever they decided to "upgrade" to but still not getting anywhere in a hurry. My experience with the N54 135i tells me that a well M-engineered FI engine, will definitely be an outstanding engine. My 135i received the Performance Power Kit upgrade and it was only lacking high rev pull and sound. I did not experience any fuel pump issue in the 2 years of ownership. I never found it lacking in throttle response one bit. The new M5 pulls to 7000rpm and from what i have read, sounds pretty good too.
clar is offline   Singapore
0
Reply With Quote
      10-13-2011, 08:06 PM   #36
Sedan_Clan
Banned
 
Drives: '14 335i(prev.IB,AW M3's & X5)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: On 2 wheels clipping an apex!

Posts: 10,923
iTrader: (25)

Quote:
Originally Posted by clar View Post
Exactly! I can never understand these so called "purists." It's almost as if they feel a part of them has been betrayed. They are taking these things a little too personal and not accepting progress. Anyway, i have very little doubt that these people will think otherwise when the new M3 kicks dirt in their face while they rev the crap out of their NA M3 or whatever they decided to "upgrade" to but still not getting anywhere in a hurry. My experience with the N54 135i tells me that a well M-engineered FI engine, will definitely be an outstanding engine. My 135i received the Performance Power Kit upgrade and it was only lacking high rev pull and sound. I did not experience any fuel pump issue in the 2 years of ownership. I never found it lacking in throttle response one bit. The new M5 pulls to 7000rpm and from what i have read, sounds pretty good too.

Take a look at the Autocar video. The M5 sounds great! Awesome! Fantastic! (..or any other superlative that you prefer)

....much better than the C63 posted in the videos in the other thread.
Sedan_Clan is offline   Brazil
0
Reply With Quote
      10-13-2011, 08:25 PM   #37
1MOREMOD
2014 Track Days - 11|Ridge 1:52:24|Pacific 1:35:72
 
1MOREMOD's Avatar
 
Drives: Race car->
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: check your mirrors

Posts: 12,223
iTrader: (5)

intersting discussion.
__________________

02 Tiag e46 M3|6MT|GC plates|MCS c.o.|GC bars|GC race control arms|GC bushings|BW eng. & tran. mounts|subframe kit|BW race shifter|BW Jaffster|Euro header|BW exhaust|K&N c.a.i.|Epic race tune|Rouge pulleys|Seibon CF hood|CSL bumper|ST-40|XR-2|SS lines|half cage|Recaro profi|Profi 2 harness|BMWpedals|BW studs|
1MOREMOD is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-13-2011, 08:41 PM   #38
Yay-Z
Shifting to Top Gear
 
Yay-Z's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 M3/F30 328i
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Houston, TX

Posts: 468
iTrader: (0)

Embrace the future people. Technology isn't always bad
__________________
2011 E90 M3 DCT
2013 F30 328i SAT
2011 E92 335i 6MT (Gone, will be missed)
Yay-Z is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-13-2011, 08:44 PM   #39
1MOREMOD
2014 Track Days - 11|Ridge 1:52:24|Pacific 1:35:72
 
1MOREMOD's Avatar
 
Drives: Race car->
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: check your mirrors

Posts: 12,223
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yay-Z View Post
Embrace the future people. Technology isn't always bad
no it isnt, but some of us, read me, are scared about the end of fun in transportation so we can save the environment. something also needed. its a difficult issue.
__________________

02 Tiag e46 M3|6MT|GC plates|MCS c.o.|GC bars|GC race control arms|GC bushings|BW eng. & tran. mounts|subframe kit|BW race shifter|BW Jaffster|Euro header|BW exhaust|K&N c.a.i.|Epic race tune|Rouge pulleys|Seibon CF hood|CSL bumper|ST-40|XR-2|SS lines|half cage|Recaro profi|Profi 2 harness|BMWpedals|BW studs|
1MOREMOD is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-13-2011, 09:12 PM   #40
clar
Captain
 
clar's Avatar
 
Drives: M5
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Singapore

Posts: 886
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chriszeh View Post
no it isnt, but some of us, read me, are scared about the end of fun in transportation so we can save the environment. something also needed. its a difficult issue.
Going FI isn't strictly a case of environmental concern. High revving engines consume way too much fuel to be practical. I coudn't care less about carbon emission. What i can't stand however, is frequent trips to the pump. It's annoying and a waste of time. At this rate of gas price increase, very soon the wallet will start to hurt.
clar is offline   Singapore
0
Reply With Quote
      10-13-2011, 10:43 PM   #41
tjsabec
Lieutenant
 
tjsabec's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008, e90, alpine white, 6mt
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Uniontown, PA

Posts: 481
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by clar View Post
Going FI isn't strictly a case of environmental concern. High revving engines consume way too much fuel to be practical. I coudn't care less about carbon emission. What i can't stand however, is frequent trips to the pump. It's annoying and a waste of time. At this rate of gas price increase, very soon the wallet will start to hurt.
This is caused by the fact that we prohibit ourselves from utilizing our own oil reserves allowing the middle east to dictate the price of one of the worlds most precious resources.

I find the push towards electric transportation in the name of the environment humerus considering over half the world's energy supply comes from burning coal. At least the US control's the majority of the world's coal reserves.
tjsabec is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-14-2011, 07:21 AM   #42
mkoesel
Moderator
 
Drives: 2015 Felt IA2
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

Posts: 13,682
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by clar View Post
And a lot of new customers will be taking over from the quitters. It's a natural order...
True dat. Just like there's a whole category of enthusiasts who only buy N/A cars (or at least, heavily favor them, anyway), there is a group who will only consider cars with FI (often because of the cheap mod potential).
__________________
A gen-u-ine BMW eff-eight-zero with them tandem clutches in the transmission and that dad gum sun roof on the top-a da cawr.
mkoesel is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-14-2011, 10:57 PM   #43
CBS
Major
 
CBS's Avatar
 
Drives: F10 535, E90 M3, E30 M3
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Wilkes-Barre, PA

Posts: 1,110
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2014 535xi M Sport  [0.00]
2014 X3 3.5 M Sport  [0.00]
2011 M3 E90  [4.88]
2008 X5  [0.00]
1990 BMW M3  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by SchnellM3 View Post
A turbo, exhaust gasses go into the turbocharger and spin it, with a supercharger, air goes in,witchcraft happens and you go faster.
Amazing Witchcraft Happens!

And by the way, the VT-1 has very linear power delivery. I still have excellent throttle modulation on the track.
__________________

ESS VT-1 550 | M24 Oil Cooler | Fall Line Half Cage | RaceTech 4009W | 6 pt Harness | Lifeline Zero 360 Fire Suppression | Rear Seat Delete | Motion Control DA Dampers w/remote reservoirs | 900/650 Hyperco Springs | RD Sport Sway Bars | Brembo 380 BBK | GC Camber Plates | Hoosier R6 | Eisenmann Sport | Stack Gauges | Painted Challenge Front Lip | Painted ZCP Rear Spoiler | Xpel Ultimate Film | LuxAngelEyes
CBS is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-14-2011, 11:34 PM   #44
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: Legacy GT - 13.704@99.39
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manheim, PA

Posts: 1,896
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by VVG View Post
...To take (for example) a 414hp 4 liter V8, and have it produce 480hp would be easier with forced induction than with by NA re-engineering.

I have a greater admiration for the athlete that does it without steroids just as I have a greater admiration for the NA motor design.
You're of course free to admire/dislike whatever you like, but in the case you've stated, you are incorrect. At a guess, the current M3 engine could easily be modified to 480 HP via exhaust with shorter runners that favor high rpm power, larger exhaust plumbing from headers back, plus cam changes.

Would it be a better engine? Hell no. It would demonstrably be pretty poor for the street. But still, 480 HP.

By contrast, boosting to that power level via forced induction would involve new pistons and rods, revised valve materials, obviously new intake and exhaust, plus cams for reduced overlap. Not to mention intercooler plumbing.

Of course, it would make torque everywhere, and be a joyful drive compared to the nervous 480 HP NA version.
bruce.augenstein@comcast. is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:02 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST