BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > M3 vs....
 
ESS Tuning
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-06-2011, 04:27 PM   #23
F82_SID
Brigadier General
F82_SID's Avatar
64
Rep
3,129
Posts

 
Drives: 2011.5 MR/BB E92 M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denver, CO. USA

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moo View Post
Yea, even the mighty M3 GTS is slower around the ring
By 7 seconds!
__________________
2011/E92/M3/MR/BB/ZCV/ZP2/EDC/2MT
Appreciate 0
      10-06-2011, 04:35 PM   #24
erio
Captain
erio's Avatar
United_States
22
Rep
801
Posts

 
Drives: e92 JB M3, 2012 GTR
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: GA

iTrader: (0)

More info from insideline:

http://blogs.insideline.com/straight...gring-run.html
Appreciate 0
      10-06-2011, 05:30 PM   #25
gthal
Brigadier General
gthal's Avatar
Canada
82
Rep
3,500
Posts

 
Drives: 2015 M4
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Canada

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2011 M3  [3.37]
Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
While the time generally speaking is impressive, given the fact that the Ring is all about power to weight over everything else, seeing as this car has almost 600 hp it really isnt very impressive.

At a weight of 3750 with 580 hp, thats a P/W of 6.46.

Just for reference, and you know whats coming, the new 911 with an expected weight of 3200 and 400 hp (P/W of 8) is still faster (7:40).


And for those who asked if the M3 with be around this time, dont hold your breath. Next M3 will likely be around what the GTS is, which also isnt a very impressive time.
I think someone is a little upset that Chev makes a Camaro that's similar to Porsche on the ring That is blasphemy!!!

However it is justified or dismissed, it is impressive... period.
Appreciate 0
      10-06-2011, 06:44 PM   #26
LarThaL
Colonel
LarThaL's Avatar
65
Rep
2,634
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 M3
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: West Springfield, MA

iTrader: (0)

A little lesson in automotive performance history:

In the 1950's through 1970's, American cars dominated over the Japanese and Europeans in terms of performance. Then came the 1980's with European cars starting to take the lead. Japan was mostly about economy cars. American performance was dead. In the 1990's the came the Japanese supercars...Nissan 300ZX, Mazda RX-7, Mitsubishi 3000GT, Toyota Supra. Then, from 2000 onwards, the Europeans were on a never-ending power binge like nobody else. Sure there was the Vette and Viper, but overall, the Europeans dominated. Now America is back in the game. The real kicker, however, is that for years, in order to get premium performance, you had to pay premium Euro prices. Now you can get American speed much more cheaply, which has always been what muscle cars are about.

It is all good for the counsumer. If the Europeans want to keep their edge, they will have to offer more bang for the buck than they currently do.
__________________
Precision tool: 2011 BMW ///M3
Sledgehammer: 2014 Audi S6


Last edited by LarThaL; 10-06-2011 at 07:59 PM.
Appreciate 0
      10-06-2011, 07:29 PM   #27
erio
Captain
erio's Avatar
United_States
22
Rep
801
Posts

 
Drives: e92 JB M3, 2012 GTR
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: GA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by VVG View Post
A little lesson in automotive performance history:

In the 1950's through 1970's, American cars dominated over the Japanese and Europeans in terms of performance. The came the 1980's with European cars starting to take the lead. Japan was mostly about economy cars. American performance was dead. In the 1990's the came the Japanese supercars...Nissan 300ZX, Mazda RX-7, Mitsubishi 3000GT, Toyota Supra. Then, from 2000 onwards, the Europeans were on a never-ending power binge like nobody else. Sure there was the Vette and Viper, but overall, the Europeans dominated. Now America is back in the game. The real kicker, however, is that for years, in order to get premium performance, you had to pay premium Euro prices. Now you can get American speed much more cheaply, which has always been what muscle cars are about.

It is all good for the counsumer. If the Europeans want to keep their edge, they will have to offer more bang for the buck than they currently do.

That's right. They are also coming after the 3 series and A4 with the 2013 Cadillac ATS.

http://www.insideline.com/cadillac/a...t_1005111.html
Appreciate 0
      10-06-2011, 09:08 PM   #28
blackoutm3
Private First Class
blackoutm3's Avatar
United_States
1
Rep
145
Posts

 
Drives: e92 m3
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: los angeles

iTrader: (0)

Dont care who makes what to what ratio. If a car is that fast just plain fast. GIVE IT PROPS!!!
__________________
e92 m3
whipple blown lightning
2010 f350 monster toy hauler.
cls500
c350
Appreciate 0
      10-07-2011, 10:54 AM   #29
Cl0ud7
Private First Class
United_States
3
Rep
188
Posts

 
Drives: 2009 M3 / 2013 X3 2.8i
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Catasauqua, PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by VVG View Post
A little lesson in automotive performance history:

In the 1950's through 1970's, American cars dominated over the Japanese and Europeans in terms of performance. Then came the 1980's with European cars starting to take the lead. Japan was mostly about economy cars. American performance was dead. In the 1990's the came the Japanese supercars...Nissan 300ZX, Mazda RX-7, Mitsubishi 3000GT, Toyota Supra. Then, from 2000 onwards, the Europeans were on a never-ending power binge like nobody else. Sure there was the Vette and Viper, but overall, the Europeans dominated. Now America is back in the game. The real kicker, however, is that for years, in order to get premium performance, you had to pay premium Euro prices. Now you can get American speed much more cheaply, which has always been what muscle cars are about.

It is all good for the counsumer. If the Europeans want to keep their edge, they will have to offer more bang for the buck than they currently do.
Well said
Appreciate 0
      10-07-2011, 06:08 PM   #30
Erhan
Colonel
Erhan's Avatar
United_States
37
Rep
2,466
Posts

 
Drives: Cooper S
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Seattle

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackoutm3 View Post
Dont care who makes what to what ratio. If a car is that fast just plain fast. GIVE IT PROPS!!!
That's weird to hear from an M3 owner. So you prefer a car that can't handle but has billion horsepower for the straights?

ps. not saying this is the case for Camaro.
__________________
2011 MINI Cooper S
previous cars: E92 M3, Z4MC, Z4 Roadster, E36 328 Sedan
Appreciate 0
      10-08-2011, 02:16 AM   #31
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
215
Rep
10,201
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
While the time generally speaking is impressive, given the fact that the Ring is all about power to weight over everything else, seeing as this car has almost 600 hp it really isnt very impressive.

At a weight of 3750 with 580 hp, thats a P/W of 6.46.

Just for reference, and you know whats coming, the new 911 with an expected weight of 3200 and 400 hp (P/W of 8) is still faster (7:40).
Absolutely agree. Even if you don't have the weight exact, the point is still completely valid. The car certainly is fast but it is not fast for it's power to weight. What does that mean. It means the car actually does not handle all that well. It is doing relatively worse in the corners and better in the straights.

The next gen M3 almost for sure won't be this fast on the 'Ring. It will be a very fast car but not this fast on this circuit. My early estimate (here) was low 7:5X at best.
Appreciate 0
      10-08-2011, 08:20 PM   #32
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
Lieutenant Colonel
21
Rep
1,908
Posts

 
Drives: Legacy GT - 13.704@99.39
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manheim, PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Absolutely agree. Even if you don't have the weight exact, the point is still completely valid. The car certainly is fast but it is not fast for it's power to weight. What does that mean. It means the car actually does not handle all that well. It is doing relatively worse in the corners and better in the straights.
Disagree, mostly. Surprise.

The issue is a good deal more complicated than that, or a Bugatti of any current flavor would be a world-beater around any given course. Not just at the 'Ring.

First of all, at any given power to weight, a lighter car will tend to be quicker than a heavier car around a road course. The reason is that any car will roll the tires under during heavy cornering, so the outside edge is the active edge. A heavier car will put that outside edge under greater duress, hence it'll likely not corner quite as quickly, especially after a lap or two.

As for the Camaro, nobody knows what it weighs or what its power level is except GM at this point. The motoring press tens to cluster at 550 HP and 4200 pounds, but we'll see, since I've seen published power all the way up to 600 HP.

For the car to beat the original 505 HP Z06 Vette is a genuine achievement, almost regardless of the power to weight. When you look at the current list of cars slower than the Camaro, you have to give it props.

Lastly, cornering Gs are in no way a full measure of a car's "handling", as you well know. Far from it, in fact. In the fullness of time, we'll learn if the Camaro is indeed a handler, or if it's just fast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
The next gen M3 almost for sure won't be this fast on the 'Ring. It will be a very fast car but not this fast on this circuit. My early estimate (here) was low 7:5X at best.
Tend to agree with you, but hope you're wrong.

Bruce
Appreciate 0
      10-08-2011, 09:24 PM   #33
Dave07997S
Colonel
38
Rep
2,555
Posts

 
Drives: 2013 BMW M3 ZCP Coupe
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Playa del Rey, CA

iTrader: (1)

I think it would be great for the ZL1 Camaro to do this, however, until I see a production car go out and do this I really will reserve comment.

Dave
__________________
2013 M3 Coupe-MR/BLK ZCP, ACM test pipes, BPM Stg2 dev. tune and Megan catback, AFE Stg2. with C/F elbow
Previous rides: 2011 M3 Coupe-MR/Blk
2007 Porsche 997C2S Speed Yellow/Blk sport seats
2004 BMW M3 Imola/Blk
Appreciate 0
      10-09-2011, 12:10 AM   #34
Andrew_K_AZ
Secret Racer
Andrew_K_AZ's Avatar
United_States
1
Rep
68
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 E92 M3 (AW/BLK)
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Arizona

iTrader: (0)

Valid point on Power to Weight Ratio. That's all good, and competing manufactures will always choose different paths. As they should, otherwise this will be a very boring world.

Brand prejudices aside, in my option what matters is: If you can build a car that looks nice, can go around a challenging track faster than the competition, consuming about the same amount of fuel or less, have space to carry the same number of people or more, and you price it at or below the competition.... then your deserve all the accolades.
__________________
2008 E92 M3, Alpine White & Black Extended Leather, 6MT with all options. Slightly Moded: BMW M Performance Exhaust, Rear LCI Taillight Retrofit, Angel iBrights, MGP Aluminum Caliper Covers, H&R Springs, H&R Spacers (15mm F and 12.5mm R) with +1 tires, Aluminum Pedals, Black Gloss Front and Hood Grills, Alpine White Side Grills and front reflectors, Active Autowerke Green Performance Filter.
Appreciate 0
      10-09-2011, 03:09 AM   #35
HBspeed
Lieutenant
HBspeed's Avatar
13
Rep
583
Posts

 
Drives: 05 M3, 00 Z3MC, Boxster Spyder
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Huntington Beach, CA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
The ZL1 is 580 HP and 556 Ft/Lbs. confirmed.

Its weight is still "unconfirmed" but has been all but alluded to be in 4200 lbs. range.

That sure is a heavy car! It's a much smaller car than my Challenger SRT8 6.4L, and has an aluminum block (instead of my iron block) though adding a supercharger. Yet still weights about the same.

Statistics like this scare me into believing that the next M3/M4 will likely pack on more weight. The ability to "cheat" weight and still post incredible lap times is being made increasingly possible by new suspension and computer management tricks.
Appreciate 0
      10-10-2011, 02:01 PM   #36
newowner35i
Private First Class
4
Rep
121
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 535
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: ny

iTrader: (0)

i was surprised to but then saw the car it had a roll cage, stripped interior, semi slicks, and carbon brakes then i knew why it did it in 7:41
Appreciate 0
      10-10-2011, 03:36 PM   #37
erio
Captain
erio's Avatar
United_States
22
Rep
801
Posts

 
Drives: e92 JB M3, 2012 GTR
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: GA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by newowner35i View Post
i was surprised to but then saw the car it had a roll cage, stripped interior, semi slicks, and carbon brakes then i knew why it did it in 7:41
Those are the same Summer tires used in the 2011 Ford Shelby GT500 Mustangs that have the SVT pack. The interior is not really stripped. The only things I see missing are the headliner, carpet, and stock seats. All the other gadgets are still there. While that may have reduced the weight the roll cage also added some back. I'm not sure how much the roll cage did for the time. I doubt they will be using those seats, but I suspect it will be something lighter than what they use on the base car. Pics below:

http://blogs.insideline.com/straight...gring-run.html

Last edited by erio; 10-10-2011 at 08:35 PM.
Appreciate 0
      10-10-2011, 09:29 PM   #38
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
215
Rep
10,201
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Disagree, mostly. Surprise.

The issue is a good deal more complicated than that, or a Bugatti of any current flavor would be a world-beater around any given course. Not just at the 'Ring.

First of all, at any given power to weight, a lighter car will tend to be quicker than a heavier car around a road course. The reason is that any car will roll the tires under during heavy cornering, so the outside edge is the active edge. A heavier car will put that outside edge under greater duress, hence it'll likely not corner quite as quickly, especially after a lap or two.

As for the Camaro, nobody knows what it weighs or what its power level is except GM at this point. The motoring press tens to cluster at 550 HP and 4200 pounds, but we'll see, since I've seen published power all the way up to 600 HP.

...

Lastly, cornering Gs are in no way a full measure of a car's "handling", as you well know. Far from it, in fact. In the fullness of time, we'll learn if the Camaro is indeed a handler, or if it's just fast.
I should have run some numbers before agreeing with a somewhat preliminary conclusion. Your gut feeling has certainly bested mine here.

HP has been confirmed (Motortrend for one) at 580. Last years SS weighed a tad under 3900. It is highly unlikely the new ZL1 will be lighter. Using these figures give a lb/hp of 6.7. One of the closest Ring times I could find for a Porsche was the 2006 Turbo, 480 hp, 3487 lb, 7:38. Its lb/hp is 7.3. That is nearly 10% worse on weight to power.

A lower lb/hp will be faster in the straights, period. We won't disagree there. What is left, corner entrance speeds, corner speeds and corner exit speeds. All highly tied to the "handling" and yes also to the ultimate grip the car can sustain.

Here the Veyron makes my point though. Although generally Ring times are well predicted by a linear regression of power to weight, each car can under or overachieve its predicted values. Those that overachieve (i.e. besting a predicted time) are not doing so by being magically faster than their given power and weight in a straight line, but instead are making the lower times by performance in the corners. The Veyron is a rocket in a straight line but simply can't keep up in the corners thus is radically underachieves on the Ring based on its power to weight.

However.... Putting these ZL1 numbers into my prior regression model yields something fairly surprising. The Porsche example I chose was somewhat extreme, over achieving a predicted time by about 16 seconds (turns out to be 1.7 standard deviations). The ZL1 is also an over achiever of sorts as well at 12 seconds better (1.3 standard deviations). In other words is it actually quite an overachiever as well (again if the 3900 figure is roughly correct, if not and it is higher that only makes the car even more of an overachiever), perhaps just not quite to the level of the best out there. For reference most BMWs tend to be slight underachievers for their power to weight the M3 is only a slight overachiever at 3 seconds better than predicted which is a mere 0.3 sigma.
Appreciate 0
      10-10-2011, 09:38 PM   #39
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
215
Rep
10,201
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HBspeed View Post
Statistics like this scare me into believing that the next M3/M4 will likely pack on more weight. The ability to "cheat" weight and still post incredible lap times is being made increasingly possible by new suspension and computer management tricks.
There is hope for the next M3. IIRC the basic F30 is slightly wider than the E90, has a larger wheel base but is about the same height and length. BMW tends to best its competitors with less power, less weight and better efficiency (well at least compared to AWD). BMW is still pushing its Efficient Dynamics program and the use of aluminum and composites absolutely will increase in the F3X M3.
Appreciate 0
      10-11-2011, 07:40 PM   #40
erio
Captain
erio's Avatar
United_States
22
Rep
801
Posts

 
Drives: e92 JB M3, 2012 GTR
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: GA

iTrader: (0)

Some other vids I found:

http://www.motortrend.com/av/roadtes...k_reuss_video/

http://www.chevrolet.com/camaro-zl1/#image1 - go to view all and there are two development/marketing vids.

!


Last edited by erio; 10-11-2011 at 07:50 PM.
Appreciate 0
      10-11-2011, 09:11 PM   #41
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
Lieutenant Colonel
21
Rep
1,908
Posts

 
Drives: Legacy GT - 13.704@99.39
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manheim, PA

iTrader: (0)

Not exactly on point, but I just saw a ZL1 in the flesh yesterday - at the Texas State Fair, of all places. I was impressed, primarily because the car looked very understated and could be mistaken for a normal SS from the middle distance - or even a little closer than that. Very little to differentiate it except for the hood, with its air outlets up near the front.

Yeah, for a Camaro fan, front end air inlets, wheels and tires, exhaust plus badging all differentiate it, but there is essentially no bling on the car over and above standard SS that I could see, which for me is worth a thumbs up.

Bruce
Appreciate 0
      10-12-2011, 01:14 AM   #42
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
215
Rep
10,201
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullbussa View Post
I don't think there is any chance whatsoever that the next M3 will come close to that time.

While fun-factor still trumps 'ring times in my buying criteria, I will have a hard time stomaching a $35k luxury penalty when my car is getting destroyed on race tracks by Mustangs and Camaros.

BMW needs to get into the horsepower race. The S65 engine was a travesty, terrible fuel economy, no torque, overly complicated and a poor competitor to a corporate Ford V8 that costs half the price. The next engine needs to be nothing less than 450 hp/450 ft.lb with forged pistons and the ability to handle additional boost. Anything less than that and it will be immediately crossed off my list.
Hmmm. Most folks call the S65 a masterpiece. Something tells me you have not spent much if any time in one near redline. Check back in when you have. Sure the fuel efficiency sucks but is that really anyone's top priority? I too would like it to be better and that will come for sure in the next gen car. I think the F10 M5 is boasting a 30% increase in mpg.

Also last I checked the Mustang in question (brand new) and the M3 (coming up on 4 years old) are pretty well neck and neck in nearly all contests. The most solid rumors and trends in M3 and M5 outputs supports 450 hp. It may come in a bit higher. It won't have 450 ft lb. For the billionth time the M3 does not lack torque at the wheels where it counts. Crank torque is pretty meaningless. If you want a faster car (outside of 0-60) more hp or less weight are the only solutions.
Appreciate 0
      10-16-2011, 12:23 AM   #43
graider
Colonel
graider's Avatar
26
Rep
2,408
Posts

 
Drives: py/kiwi e46 m3
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: toronto

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
While the time generally speaking is impressive, given the fact that the Ring is all about power to weight over everything else, seeing as this car has almost 600 hp it really isnt very impressive.

At a weight of 3750 with 580 hp, thats a P/W of 6.46.

Just for reference, and you know whats coming, the new 911 with an expected weight of 3200 and 400 hp (P/W of 8) is still faster (7:40).


And for those who asked if the M3 with be around this time, dont hold your breath. Next M3 will likely be around what the GTS is, which also isnt a very impressive time.
2012 GTR said hello to turbo/s around the ring. gtr is 500 lbs heavier.
Appreciate 0
      10-17-2011, 02:00 AM   #44
shay2nak
I <3 E90 M3
shay2nak's Avatar
United_States
2
Rep
288
Posts

 
Drives: 325i/Lotus Exige S
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Calipornia

iTrader: (0)

it barely hit 170 on the straight even with all that power. I guess that's what happens when you design a car that looks like a brick that weighs 4200 lbs.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:57 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST