BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > General M3 Forum (E90 + E92 + E93)
 
Evolve Automotive
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-01-2011, 06:36 PM   #23
captainaudio
World's Foremost Authority
 
Drives: 335i E93 750Li
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Upper East Side Manhattan - Boca Raton Florida

Posts: 3,216
iTrader: (0)

A stiff suspension does not necessarily make for a good handling car. A perfect example of this is earlier years of the 335i with sport suspension and RFTs. The suspension was not capable of keeping the tires in contact with the road surface and the tires bounced all over the place on rough surfaces. This IMO did not make for a good handling car and was certainly not confidence building.

There is a "sweet spot" or more accurately a "sweet range" for suspension stiffness and too stiff can be as detremental to handling as too soft.

The idea of a "race car for the street" does not really work as streets are very different (i.e. bumpier) than race tracks. Even on a race track you reach a point where as the suspension get stiffer performance begins to suffer. So although it may feel more like you are driving a race car when you have a very stiff suspension whether there is actually a performance advantage is another matter.

FWIW the driving coach at the Lime Rock Club, who drives an M3 around the track as part of his job and probably does a few thousand laps per year, told me that the M3s are fastest around the track with 18s and the suspension on the second hardest setting.

As for the argument that 19s look better, that is a matter of personal taste, but IMO you are either going for performance or style. If you are willing to give up performance in the name of style that is fine but don't confuse your priorities.

CA
__________________

Drivers Club at Lime Rock - International Motorsports Research Center
Madison Avenue Sports Car Driving and Chowder Society (Only a Vice President)
Polish Racing Drivers of America (PRDA)
The Glen Club - Sports Car Club of America
captainaudio is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-01-2011, 07:07 PM   #24
bobbyd1961
Banned
 
Drives: 2009 M3 sedan LeMans Blue
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: new jersey

Posts: 2,411
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASENNA View Post
Just upgraded from a 320d to M3 with Zcp and am not enjoying the firmer ride. Silly me with more dollars than sense didn\'t test drive the car. I just assumed the \'comfort\' setting on the EDC would actually do what it infers.

Not being a genius around cars (or anything else for that matter), I need all the advice I can get on making the ride a bit softer. Do I lower the tyre pressures? Change the tyres (PS2\'s)? Change the wheels? Or go as far as altering the suspension? The 320d ride was as firm as I really want it to be.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
i think my M3 rides softer than my past 335. the 335 sounded dreadful going over bumps. it almost hurt or sounded like the front end was damaged after a little bump here and there. M3 with 19s the way to go.
bobbyd1961 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-01-2011, 07:38 PM   #25
-=Hot|Ice=-
Been There, Done That.
 
-=Hot|Ice=-'s Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 BMW M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Maryland

Posts: 4,727
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
A stiff suspension does not necessarily make for a good handling car. A perfect example of this is earlier years of the 335i with sport suspension and RFTs. The suspension was not capable of keeping the tires in contact with the road surface and the tires bounced all over the place on rough surfaces. This IMO did not make for a good handling car and was certainly not confidence building.

There is a "sweet spot" or more accurately a "sweet range" for suspension stiffness and too stiff can be as detremental to handling as too soft.

The idea of a "race car for the street" does not really work as streets are very different (i.e. bumpier) than race tracks. Even on a race track you reach a point where as the suspension get stiffer performance begins to suffer. So although it may feel more like you are driving a race car when you have a very stiff suspension whether there is actually a performance advantage is another matter.

FWIW the driving coach at the Lime Rock Club, who drives an M3 around the track as part of his job and probably does a few thousand laps per year, told me that the M3s are fastest around the track with 18s and the suspension on the second hardest setting.

As for the argument that 19s look better, that is a matter of personal taste, but IMO you are either going for performance or style. If you are willing to give up performance in the name of style that is fine but don't confuse your priorities.

CA
/thread
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaypod View Post
You sound like my buddies who have AMG's - Slam the gas, slam the brakes...
-=Hot|Ice=- is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-01-2011, 08:10 PM   #26
Denk
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: E92 M3 ZCP
Join Date: May 2011
Location: PNW

Posts: 1,858
iTrader: (2)

you must have terrible roads where you live. The M3 suspension is firm but comfy, it's an M. 18" wheels with a soft sidewall tire will squish up the ride for ya.
Denk is online now   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-01-2011, 08:37 PM   #27
airwave808
First Lieutenant
 
airwave808's Avatar
 
Drives: MCB E92
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Toronto

Posts: 310
iTrader: (1)

Frankly, I don't think the OP was looking for an M3. Going from 320d to an M3 even without ZCP would give a stiff feeling. I have ZCP and I do feel that comfort setting is actually what it states even with 19" wheels. Why would you go with 18" so the car is less stiff? You should have bought a 335i or something and that would have done the job.
airwave808 is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      10-01-2011, 08:51 PM   #28
captainaudio
World's Foremost Authority
 
Drives: 335i E93 750Li
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Upper East Side Manhattan - Boca Raton Florida

Posts: 3,216
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by airwave808 View Post
Frankly, I don't think the OP was looking for an M3. Going from 320d to an M3 even without ZCP would give a stiff feeling. I have ZCP and I do feel that comfort setting is actually what it states even with 19" wheels. Why would you go with 18" so the car is less stiff? You should have bought a 335i or something and that would have done the job.
The 335i sport suspension is actually stiffer (and far less forgiving over potholes and road imperfections) than the M3.

As I stated a few posts back there is very good evidence that the 18s outperform the 19s.

If "Stiffer is Better" was the case race cars would have solid rubber tires and no suspension at all and have the wheels bolted directly to the chassis.

CA
__________________

Drivers Club at Lime Rock - International Motorsports Research Center
Madison Avenue Sports Car Driving and Chowder Society (Only a Vice President)
Polish Racing Drivers of America (PRDA)
The Glen Club - Sports Car Club of America

Last edited by captainaudio; 10-01-2011 at 08:56 PM.
captainaudio is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-01-2011, 09:41 PM   #29
e46e92love
Brigadier General
 
e46e92love's Avatar
 
Drives: e92 ///M3; X3 (wife's)
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The East Side of Things

Posts: 3,037
iTrader: (0)

Send a message via AIM to e46e92love
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyNate View Post
I came from a 328i and this cars ride is by no stretch of the imagination objectionable. In any setting/mode.
100000
__________________

"...it's not about the money and not about the brand of the car, it's about handling,performance and passion......And that, no other car has all together like an M3........when you talk about the most complete car the M is invincible." --Tony Kanaan.
e46e92love is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-01-2011, 11:23 PM   #30
spdy330
Major General
 
spdy330's Avatar
 
Drives: 05 Tundra, 11 M3, 08 Odyssey
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Chino, CA

Posts: 5,977
iTrader: (159)

Garage List
Send a message via AIM to spdy330 Send a message via Yahoo to spdy330
I came from an '06 330i and the M3 is heads down a better ride (comfort) to me. Granted it is firm but my other car had run flats which were horrible.
__________________
- 2006 E90 330i TiAG retired.
- 2011.75 E90 M3 - BMW Performance Exhaust, BMW Performance Grills, Lux H8 V3, Reflector delete Euro style, Ceramic Tint 58%, Brembo 380mm BBK, V1 with custom multi-color display by www.Radar-Mirror.com - custom radar mount by www.performancepackage.com.
spdy330 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-02-2011, 01:49 AM   #31
ASENNA
New Member
 
Drives: M3 E92 Alpine White 2011
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: OZ

Posts: 7
iTrader: (0)

Thanks for all the comments and advice.

It is a new car, and I will check for the shipping blocks, although I wouldn't say my ride was brutal. It felt fine the other day when I overtook 2 cars and a truck at 150kmh, but I don't think there's much future in going 50% over the speed limit. It was the first time I put the foot down and was shocked when I saw the clock.

Not test driving it wasn't the best move. I'd been fascinated with BMW's since I was young and just assumed I would love what many think is the ultimate bimmer. I don't think I bought the wrong car, I just need to win the lottery and build some decent roads around here. You can't go 50 metres without dodging potholes and patchwork.

I will probably go for the 18" wheels, which brands are the best? I think I will keep the 19's and track this car someday, hopefully I don't wet my panties
ASENNA is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-02-2011, 05:59 AM   #32
LarThaL
Colonel
 
LarThaL's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 M3
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: West Springfield, MA

Posts: 2,526
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASENNA View Post
Thanks for all the comments and advice.

It is a new car, and I will check for the shipping blocks, although I wouldn't say my ride was brutal. It felt fine the other day when I overtook 2 cars and a truck at 150kmh, but I don't think there's much future in going 50% over the speed limit. It was the first time I put the foot down and was shocked when I saw the clock.

Not test driving it wasn't the best move. I'd been fascinated with BMW's since I was young and just assumed I would love what many think is the ultimate bimmer. I don't think I bought the wrong car, I just need to win the lottery and build some decent roads around here. You can't go 50 metres without dodging potholes and patchwork.

I will probably go for the 18" wheels, which brands are the best? I think I will keep the 19's and track this car someday, hopefully I don't wet my panties
Two things with the shipping blocks....they make the front end sit a little high (this should be a clue) and they are INSIDE the rubber shroud of the front shocks, so they are NOT VISIBLE when you just jack up the car and look under there.

Good luck.
__________________
Precision tool: 2011 BMW ///M3
Sledgehammer: 2014 Audi S6

LarThaL is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-02-2011, 07:25 AM   #33
kmarei
Major General
 
kmarei's Avatar
 
Drives: 1988 E30 M3 Evo II
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Reston, VA

Posts: 6,479
iTrader: (33)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASENNA View Post
Thanks for all the comments and advice.

It is a new car, and I will check for the shipping blocks, although I wouldn't say my ride was brutal. It felt fine the other day when I overtook 2 cars and a truck at 150kmh, but I don't think there's much future in going 50% over the speed limit. It was the first time I put the foot down and was shocked when I saw the clock.

Not test driving it wasn't the best move. I'd been fascinated with BMW's since I was young and just assumed I would love what many think is the ultimate bimmer. I don't think I bought the wrong car, I just need to win the lottery and build some decent roads around here. You can't go 50 metres without dodging potholes and patchwork.

I will probably go for the 18" wheels, which brands are the best? I think I will keep the 19's and track this car someday, hopefully I don't wet my panties

If I were in your shoes
I'd get Apex Arc 8 wheels
With 255/40 18" fronts, and 275/40 18" in the back
That's the biggest sidewall you can fit to this car
Bug sidewall= comfortable ride
And nice they are wider than the stock 245/40 and 265/40
You get more grip
__________________
This user has been banned from the 4 series forum because he doesn't sing its merits like the admins want us all to

kmarei is offline   Egypt
0
Reply With Quote
      10-02-2011, 10:46 AM   #34
airwave808
First Lieutenant
 
airwave808's Avatar
 
Drives: MCB E92
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Toronto

Posts: 310
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
The 335i sport suspension is actually stiffer (and far less forgiving over potholes and road imperfections) than the M3.

As I stated a few posts back there is very good evidence that the 18s outperform the 19s.

If "Stiffer is Better" was the case race cars would have solid rubber tires and no suspension at all and have the wheels bolted directly to the chassis.

CA
Interesting fact about 335i. I was not aware that the standard ride is more stiff. Just thought may be it is more comfortable.

Thanks.
airwave808 is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      10-02-2011, 12:18 PM   #35
quads
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: bac mono
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: racetrack

Posts: 1,644
iTrader: (3)

+1 on 18's - they make a huge difference
quads is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-02-2011, 12:27 PM   #36
BMW Fanatic
Banned
 
Drives: slow
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Calgary

Posts: 3,314
iTrader: (11)

18's? NOO go with some 17's man, they'll do the trick.
BMW Fanatic is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      10-02-2011, 01:36 PM   #37
1MOREMOD
2014 Track Days - 9|Ridge 1:54:61|Pacific 1:35:72
 
1MOREMOD's Avatar
 
Drives: Race car->
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: check your mirrors

Posts: 11,876
iTrader: (5)

i wish i had that issue. stiff is good usually.
__________________

02 Tiag e46 M3|6MT|GC plates|MCS c.o.|GC bars|GC race control arms|GC bushings & bearings|BW eng. & tran. mounts|subframe kit|BW race shifter|BW Jaffster|Euro header|BW race|K&N c.a.i.|Epic race tune|Rouge pulleys|Seibon CF hood|CSL bumper|ST-40|XR-2|SS lines|half cage|Recaro profi|Profi 2 harness|BMWpedals|BW studs|
1MOREMOD is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-02-2011, 04:45 PM   #38
Ateam
Banned
 
Drives: M3
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: USA

Posts: 1,109
iTrader: (0)

I cannot believe nobody is pointing out the obvious fix for this. Adjusting your tire pressure down. You can try setting all 4 tires to 28-30. If still too firm than 25-27. As long as you are not doing extended freeway/high speed runs, for around town this will make worlds of difference on rough roads.

I stll think something sounds wrong though as comfort setting is really really soft. So unless you have a back injury or are 80 years old, you just should not feel that comfort is "too stiff"
Ateam is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-02-2011, 05:08 PM   #39
immiketoo
Colonel
 
immiketoo's Avatar
 
Drives: Smoothly
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Chicago Burbs

Posts: 2,873
iTrader: (0)

Thats cause nobody wants bent ZCP wheels.^^^
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by double eagle View Post
Thickness feels good to me and my hands aren't that big.
immiketoo is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-02-2011, 06:32 PM   #40
elp_jc
Brigadier General
 
Drives: .
Join Date: May 2008
Location: .

Posts: 4,910
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
As I stated a few posts back there is very good evidence that the 18s outperform the 19s.
A blanket statement like that is simply not true. Furthermore, performance has MANY aspects, so depends what you're talking about. And finally, a HUGE factor is surface, where some might benefit 18s and others 19s. Too many factors to throw a blanket statement like that .

For starters, the stock 18" setup is HEAVIER than the 220 setup, but lighter than ZCP. However, ZCP wheels are wider, with suspension slightly stiffer, BUT same tire sizes; which setup is better? Forged 18s lighter than 220s would be a better argument, but they still wouldn't be as good as 19s in every surface. Just look at every modern supercar, and none I remember has 18s ; there must be a reason.

Bottom line is for the OPs problem, he'd benefit the best with a forged set of 18s IMO. Good day gang.
elp_jc is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-02-2011, 06:37 PM   #41
immiketoo
Colonel
 
immiketoo's Avatar
 
Drives: Smoothly
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Chicago Burbs

Posts: 2,873
iTrader: (0)

The reason is that premium race/performance rubber is cheaper in 18 that 19. Thats about it.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by double eagle View Post
Thickness feels good to me and my hands aren't that big.
immiketoo is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-02-2011, 06:56 PM   #42
captainaudio
World's Foremost Authority
 
Drives: 335i E93 750Li
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Upper East Side Manhattan - Boca Raton Florida

Posts: 3,216
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
A blanket statement like that is simply not true. Furthermore, performance has MANY aspects, so depends what you're talking about. And finally, a HUGE factor is surface, where some might benefit 18s and others 19s. Too many factors to throw a blanket statement like that .

For starters, the stock 18" setup is HEAVIER than the 220 setup, but lighter than ZCP. However, ZCP wheels are wider, with suspension slightly stiffer, BUT same tire sizes; which setup is better? Forged 18s lighter than 220s would be a better argument, but they still wouldn't be as good as 19s in every surface. Just look at every modern supercar, and none I remember has 18s ; there must be a reason.

Bottom line is for the OPs problem, he'd benefit the best with a forged set of 18s IMO. Good day gang.
Read post #28 in this thread. If you have any evidence that 19s will outperform 18s I would be interested in seeing it.

CA
__________________

Drivers Club at Lime Rock - International Motorsports Research Center
Madison Avenue Sports Car Driving and Chowder Society (Only a Vice President)
Polish Racing Drivers of America (PRDA)
The Glen Club - Sports Car Club of America
captainaudio is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-02-2011, 06:58 PM   #43
quads
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: bac mono
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: racetrack

Posts: 1,644
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
A blanket statement like that is simply not true. Furthermore, performance has MANY aspects, so depends what you're talking about. And finally, a HUGE factor is surface, where some might benefit 18s and others 19s. Too many factors to throw a blanket statement like that .

For starters, the stock 18" setup is HEAVIER than the 220 setup, but lighter than ZCP. However, ZCP wheels are wider, with suspension slightly stiffer, BUT same tire sizes; which setup is better? Forged 18s lighter than 220s would be a better argument, but they still wouldn't be as good as 19s in every surface. Just look at every modern supercar, and none I remember has 18s ; there must be a reason.

Bottom line is for the OPs problem, he'd benefit the best with a forged set of 18s IMO. Good day gang.
I full agree here.... I saw significant performance increase at road atlanta with 19's over 18's. Same rubber, same day - back to back runs with 19's with slightly wider rubber. less sidewall means less tire squirm - simliar to having stiffer springs - less time wasted in transition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by immiketoo View Post
The reason is that premium race/performance rubber is cheaper in 18 that 19. Thats about it.
+1
quads is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-02-2011, 07:02 PM   #44
quads
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: bac mono
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: racetrack

Posts: 1,644
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Read post #28 in this thread. If you have any evidence that 19s will outperform 18s I would be interested in seeing it.

CA
Some of my posts on 18 vs 19 on track.
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=572754
quads is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:03 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST