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      09-20-2011, 06:04 AM   #133
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one thing they don't mention is that m3 has the worst fuel consumption with the least power. Also, modding potential of m3 is a lot less... I think those are the only gripes I have with it.
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      09-20-2011, 06:38 AM   #134
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I would have gotten C63 over the M3, IF THEY MADE THEM WITH MANUAL! can't for the life of me drive an automatic... or whatever you call it, if there is no 3rd pedal it's automatic.
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      09-20-2011, 01:36 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clar View Post
I think the next M3 has nothing to fear. The F10 M5 does 7:55 on the Ring. Every generation of M3 best the M5 at the time, so we can safely assume the next M3 will lap the Ring around 7:4x. At that level, it does not have much to fear even from the upcoming 991s. I am truly excited about it and can't wait.
Link to said time for the F10 M5?
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      09-20-2011, 01:53 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
I don't think this will last very long though. With the recent moves BMW has been making towards efficiency, they're forgetting what they stood for. Hoping the next generation M3 keeps with the tradition of at least handling like an M3 should.
I disagree completely! The BMW is almost always the driver's car out of any bunch despite the weight. If anything, BMW is doing a GREAT JOB of maintaining the fun factor of their cars in lieu of increasing safety/emissions regulations.
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      09-20-2011, 02:05 PM   #137
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I wish I knew what the sales numbers are of these cars including the cts-v.
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      09-20-2011, 02:55 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
I disagree completely! The BMW is almost always the driver's car out of any bunch despite the weight. If anything, BMW is doing a GREAT JOB of maintaining the fun factor of their cars in lieu of increasing safety/emissions regulations.
Car and Driver, Road and Track, and Motortrend all disagree. BMW's electric steering has put them at the back of the pack.
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      09-20-2011, 04:16 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Car and Driver, Road and Track, and Motortrend all disagree. BMW's electric steering has put them at the back of the pack.
Funny, because those same magazines will rave about how "connected" the car feels, yada, yada, yada (..and that's reiterated by the numerous wins on account of BMW)...

Most of us who have driven other cars in the segment will agree that the BMW is the better driving vehicle.
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      09-20-2011, 05:22 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Funny, because those same magazines will rave about how "connected" the car feels, yada, yada, yada (..and that's reiterated by the numerous wins on account of BMW)...

Most of us who have driven other cars in the segment will agree that the BMW is the better driving vehicle.
Both the 7 series and 5 series have placed 3/3 in their segment because those same magazines no longer think they're "connected". Their main downfall seems to be the electric steering.
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You sound like my buddies who have AMG's - Slam the gas, slam the brakes...
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      09-20-2011, 09:27 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Both the 7 series and 5 series have placed 3/3 in their segment because those same magazines no longer think they're "connected". Their main downfall seems to be the electric steering.
We are discussing the 3-series variants........specifically the M3.
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      09-20-2011, 10:07 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
We are discussing the 3-series variants........specifically the M3.
The 3 series will be heading down the same path. Not sure what M has planned for the M3. Guess what we'll have to wait and see. I was replying to your "BMW is almost always the drivers car" comment. It's not "The Drivers Choice" anymore.
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You sound like my buddies who have AMG's - Slam the gas, slam the brakes...
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      09-20-2011, 10:14 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
The 3 series will be heading down the same path. Not sure what M has planned for the M3. Guess what we'll have to wait and see. I was replying to your "BMW is almost always the drivers car" comment. It's not "The Drivers Choice" anymore.
I share your concern.
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      09-21-2011, 12:04 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
The 3 series will be heading down the same path. Not sure what M has planned for the M3. Guess what we'll have to wait and see. I was replying to your "BMW is almost always the drivers car" comment. It's not "The Drivers Choice" anymore.
I highly doubt it. Statements similar to yours have been regurgitated over the past decade or more (..with the E36....the E46...and now the E9X), and they are still regarded as the best driving vehicles in their segment (..again, referring to the 3-Series/M3 and other ///M variants). So with regards to the 3, it is almost always the driver's car.
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      09-21-2011, 12:13 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
I highly doubt it. Statements similar to yours have been regurgitated over the past decade or more (..with the E36....the E46...and now the E9X), and they are still regarded as the best driving vehicles in their segment (..again, referring to the 3-Series/M3 and other ///M variants). So with regards to the 3, it is almost always the driver's car.
Honestly, I don't doubt it a bit. Now that BMW has finally found out that people will buy there cars because of the badge, they're cutting costs in R&D and producing half assed automotive products. The 1M is a key example of this. The e9x generation will be the last closest thing to a true BMW. We all know the tech will trickle down to the 3 series.
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      09-21-2011, 04:22 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Honestly, I don't doubt it a bit. Now that BMW has finally found out that people will buy there cars because of the badge, they're cutting costs in R&D and producing half assed automotive products.
You do realize how silly you sound right? It is arguable that any highly sought after vehicle is purchased because of the perception of prestige. Your argument might hold water IF the cars DIDN'T perform, BUT they do (..they don't make the best drag cars - and that isn't their intent nor purpose - but they sure do handle). To label any BMW product a "half assed automotive product" is an exaggeration by the furthest stretch (..and is devoid of reason). If you truly feel that the product isn't worth the money, there is another automotive marquee right around the corner anxiously waiting to relieve you of your hard earned (..or not!) money.


Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
The 1M is a key example of this.
The 1M was "thrown together", but it isn't a shoddy product by any means. It isn't like that car is short on performance either.


Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
The e9x generation will be the last closest thing to a true BMW. We all know the tech will trickle down to the 3 series.
Yeah, they said the same thing about the E46 after years were spent abhorring its existence. They said the same thing about the E36 after years were spent abhorring its existence. The E9X is just recently being regarded as "the last of the true M3's" by keyboard enthusiasts (..and some automotive journalists) after years were spent abhorring its existence. Notice a pattern here? Almost all of the negative comments surrounded the increasing weight of the vehicles, but NOBODY could deny how well the cars handled and hid their hefty curb weight. ALL cars are increasing in weight and looking for alternatives in power; it's a byproduct of the increasingly strict safety/emissions standards. Livability is extremely important in a daily driven vehicle as well.

Last edited by Sedan_Clan; 09-21-2011 at 04:47 PM.
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      09-21-2011, 05:01 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
You do realize how silly you sound right? It is arguable that any highly sought after vehicle is purchased because of the perception of prestige. Your argument might hold water IF the cars DIDN'T perform, BUT they do (..they don't make the best drag cars - and that isn't their intent nor purpose - but they sure do handle). To label any BMW product a "half assed automotive product" is an exaggeration by the furthest stretch (..and is devoid of reason). If you truly feel that the product isn't worth the money, there is another automotive marquee right around the corner anxiously waiting to relieve you of your hard earned (..or not!) money.




The 1M was "thrown together", but it isn't a shoddy product by any means. It isn't like that car is short on performance either.




Yeah, they said the same thing about the E46 after years were spent abhorring its existence. They said the same thing about the E36 after years were spent abhorring its existence. The E9X is just recently being regarded as "the last of the true M3's" by keyboard enthusiasts (..and some automotive journalists) after years were spent abhorring its existence. Notice a pattern here? Almost all of the negative comments surrounded the increasing weight of the vehicles, but NOBODY could deny how well the cars handled and hid their hefty curb weight. ALL cars are increasing in weight and looking for alternatives in power; it's a byproduct of the increasingly strict safety/emissions standards. Livability is extremely important in a daily driven vehicle as well.
-So you're telling me that nobody buys a BMW for the badge? Get over yourself. I'm not taking anything away from the performance of the car, but BMW is sliding and fast. I'll be first in line to buy the new 3 IF it proves itself and BMW doesn't use that god awful electric steering. My family has owned 14 BMW's since 98 and there are a couple current ones in the family as well, but BMW in my opinion is shooting themselves in the foot. Quality has dropped somewhat and they really don't care because people will still buy the car. Hope BMW keeps it's tradition for being "The Ultimate Driving Machine" come the F80.

-The current generation 3 series hasn't incorporated electric steering yet which is why it's still holding that #1 spot. Every new car BMW has put out has ended up last in comparison tests. What makes the 3 series any different?

-Not ALL cars are gaining weight. The Porsche Cayenne(The SUV) lost 400+ pounds and the next generation Q7 is said to be losing near 800 pounds. Like I said, R&D is expensive and BMW just doesn't want to play that card. They'd rather spend on the money on marketing giving the X6 22 inch wheels.

P.S. The 1M is marketing, and so are the X5 and X6 M's.
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You sound like my buddies who have AMG's - Slam the gas, slam the brakes...

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      09-21-2011, 05:08 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kotik View Post
one thing they don't mention is that m3 has the worst fuel consumption with the least power. Also, modding potential of m3 is a lot less... I think those are the only gripes I have with it.
I have a buddy with a C63. Fuel consumption is definitely worse than the M3. He gets around 10mpg city and 14-15 on the highway. I have been getting around 14 mpg city and about 18 on the highway averaging 80-85mph.
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      09-21-2011, 05:16 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Yeah, they said the same thing about the E46 after years were spent abhorring its existence. They said the same thing about the E36 after years were spent abhorring its existence. The E9X is just recently being regarded as "the last of the true M3's" by keyboard enthusiasts (..and some automotive journalists) after years were spent abhorring its existence. Notice a pattern here? Almost all of the negative comments surrounded the increasing weight of the vehicles, but NOBODY could deny how well the cars handled and hid their hefty curb weight. ALL cars are increasing in weight and looking for alternatives in power; it's a byproduct of the increasingly strict safety/emissions standards. Livability is extremely important in a daily driven vehicle as well.
There's more to the E9x -> F8x transition than just weight and steering. How about FI? That's a serious game changer. It's not just an improvement on a previous platform (most notably the E36->E46 transition). But it's a car I simply will not buy. FI isn't the ONLY way to do things. It's a complete sell-out move and tell us a lot about what BMW wants to do with the M3. Forget journalists, how about us drivers? Most of us lament weight but BMW has done a good job working it into the car and maintaining handling characteristics. Something we CAN all notice however, is a damn vacuum under the hood and the lack of immediate throttle response and rush to redline.

So yes, the E9x M3 is the end of an era and the end of my purchasing of the brand; at least until they make significant strides in turbo tech which I imagine is at least another model generation away.
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      09-21-2011, 05:35 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
-So you're telling me that nobody buys a BMW for the badge? Get over yourself. I'm not taking anything away from the performance of the car, but BMW is sliding and fast. I'll be first in line to buy the new 3 IF it proves itself and BMW doesn't use that god awful electric steering. My family has owned 14 BMW's since 98 and there are a couple current ones in the family as well, but BMW in my opinion is shooting themselves in the foot. Quality has dropped somewhat and they really don't care because people will still buy the car. Hope BMW keeps it's tradition for being "The Ultimate Driving Machine" come the F80.
Hot Ice,

A little bit of reading comprehension goes a long way. You implied that the BMW demographic is made up of badge whores, and I replied that such a title could be applicable to owners of all of the luxury marquees. It even applies to a lesser degree with economy cars (..i.e..the Honda Civic driver who feels that he is above the Ford Escort driver).

Please explain how the quality has dropped. I have owned approximately 10 BMW's since '99/'00 (..5 of those 10 cars were M3's....three of the E46 variant, 1 E90 and my current E92), and I can firmly attest without any doubt in my mind that my E9X M3 is better built that any E36, E46 or 1-series that I've owned or currently own.


Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
-
-The current generation 3 series hasn't incorporated electric steering yet which is why it's still holding that #1 spot. Every new car BMW has put out has ended up last in comparison tests. What makes the 3 series any different?

The 3-series has ALWAYS been different. Why assume that future iterations won't be? Is the glass half full or half empty?


Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
-Not ALL cars are gaining weight. The Porsche Cayenne(The SUV) lost 400+ pounds and the next generation Q7 is said to be losing near 800 pounds. Like I said, R&D is expensive and BMW just doesn't want to play that card. They'd rather spend on the money on marketing giving the X6 22 inch wheels.
Allow me to rephrase....


...most cars in the segment are gaining weight. Rarely does the next generation within automobiles product line shed any significant weight (..save for specific performance oriented versions that offer little to no creature comforts and are uncomfortable for daily use)



Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
P.S. The 1M is marketing, and so are the X5 and X6 M's.
Possibly, BUT do remember that the older X5 4.8is was essentially an M X5 without the badge. With Mercedes and Porsche in the performance SUV/SAV market, BMW would have been stupid not to tap into its potential. It makes perfect business sense despite whether or not you agree.

Last edited by Sedan_Clan; 09-21-2011 at 06:11 PM.
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      09-21-2011, 05:36 PM   #151
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I have a buddy with a C63. Fuel consumption is definitely worse than the M3. He gets around 10mpg city and 14-15 on the highway. I have been getting around 14 mpg city and about 18 on the highway averaging 80-85mph.
Driving the exact same mainly city pattern I got 14 mpg in my C63. I'm consistently getting 12.6 now in my M3.
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      09-21-2011, 06:07 PM   #152
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There's more to the E9x -> F8x transition than just weight and steering. How about FI? That's a serious game changer.
My purpose wasn't to go into the specific differences between the cars. The new car is not available for anybody to assess and/or compare, so why waste time with conjecture? That was a rhetorical question!


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Originally Posted by stefan View Post
It's not just an improvement on a previous platform (most notably the E36->E46 transition). But it's a car I simply will not buy.
That is definitely your prerogative. I'm not very fond of FI myself, BUT if the next M3 performs well - and there isn't a doubt in my mind that it won't - then I may decide to opt for the new car. One disclaimer however, I will keep my E9X.



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Originally Posted by stefan View Post
FI isn't the ONLY way to do things. It's a complete sell-out move and tell us a lot about what BMW wants to do with the M3.
Why is it a sell out move? This isn't the first turbo car that BMW has produced. They were producing turbo 2002's in the 70's. So I'll ask again, why is it a sell out move? F/I may be the easiest way to maintain performance while still meeting increasingly strict emmissions requirements.


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Originally Posted by stefan View Post
Forget journalists, how about us drivers?
Yeah, what about us drivers? That was another rhetorical question. Are you really dissatisfied with how your vehicle performs? If so, I'd love to hear why.


Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan View Post
Most of us lament weight but BMW has done a good job working it into the car and maintaining handling characteristics. Something we CAN all notice however, is a damn vacuum under the hood and the lack of immediate throttle response and rush to redline.

You must be referring to the run-of-the-mill 135i/335i. Have you driven a 1M yet?



Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan View Post
So yes, the E9x M3 is the end of an era and the end of my purchasing of the brand; at least until they make significant strides in turbo tech which I imagine is at least another model generation away.
We'll welcome you back with open arms.
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      09-21-2011, 06:09 PM   #153
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Driving the exact same mainly city pattern I got 14 mpg in my C63. I'm consistently getting 12.6 now in my M3.
Probably because you heavy-foot that bad boy on every corner exit.

FWIW, I am pulling 19.2 mpg during mixed driving, and it only drops after prolonged "spirited" curvy road excursions. I admittedly don't drive my car hard all of the time; I have a race-prepped 848 (..and a number of Southern California tracks) for that.
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      09-21-2011, 06:13 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Hot Ice,

A little bit of reading comprehension goes a long way. You implied that the BMW demographic is made up of badge whores, and I replied that such a title could be applicable to owners of all of the luxury marquees. It even applies on the lower end of the automobile spectrum (..i.e..the Honda Civic driver who feels that he is above the Ford Escort driver).

Please explain how the quality has dropped. I have owned approximately 10 BMW's since '99/'00 (..5 of those 10 cars were M3's....three of the E46 variant, 1 E90 and my current E92), and I can firmly attest without any doubt in my mind that my E9X M3 is better built that any E36, E46 or 1-series that I've owned or currently own.





The 3-series has ALWAYS been different. Why assume that future iterations won't be? Is the glass half full or half empty?




Allow me to rephrase....


...most cars in the segment are gaining weight. Rarely does the next generation within automobiles product line shed any significant weight (..save for specific performance oriented versions that offer little to no creature comforts and are uncomfortable for daily use)





Possibly, BUT do remember that the older X5 4.8is was essentially an M X5 without the badge. With Mercedes and Porsche in the performance SUV/SAV market, BMW would have been stupid not to tap into that market. It makes perfect business sense despite whether or not you agree.

- I don't appreciate the fact that you feel the need to make smurk comments like, " A little reading comprehension goes a long way", This is the second time you've said something like this. Next time, I'm reporting it. We are having a civil discussion, no need to get snarky.

- Quality has dropped significantly. The leather wears after just 2,000 miles, Misaligned hoods popping up left and right,, interior rattles...I could keep going as the list is plentiful.
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