EVO Mag Group Test: BMW M3 vs RS5 vs C63 AMG vs Boss 302 Mustang

[jqsmooth]

Originally Posted by esquire

two things:

1) i'd take a second m3 in a heartbeat before i picked up a c63 as my second car.

2) it would have been cool to see the cadillac cts-v in this competition too.

+1 on #2

[MrBonus]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Yup, and I agree the Boss is different from the GT but I wouldn't say it's much better. I think all of my issues with the Mustang would be solved by a 10% size reduction (weight is fine at 3500lbs, not worried about that) and about $10,000,000 in additional development time on the chassis. I'm thinking they're getting the best they can get from the current nearly 7 year old platform with the Boss. It's probably going to take another model cycle before I'm really happy with it but they're moving in the right direction and that's A Good Thing. Just think about what the "tire volume knob" aka "steering wheel" was like 12 years ago when the new edge cars came out, and those were considerably better than the SN95's. The M3 and M5 were the benchmark back when the Mustang was a car that only survived thanks to rental agencies and hairdressers and a few really lunatic fringe enthusiasts who just wanted a Mustang. If you wanted a competent performance car in the pony car segment you bought an F-body.

Building a great car for the money is one thing, building a great car that is great because it's great is something else. Ford is *almost* there. The fact that Ford is so close to being at the top of the pile at this price point is just more proof that we live in the golden age. It wasn't always true that I would be happy driving anything made in this country short of the 'Vette and now even if we closed our ports to imported fully assembled vehicles tomorrow there are several to choose from.

What specifically didn't you like about the chassis? I'm curious because you're the first person I've heard mention the GT and Boss are largely similar.

[Cyrax91]

I love my M3

wish I could also own an e90 as the daily and keep the e92 tracked out!

[Richbot]

I didn't say they're largely similar, I said the Boss isn't necessarily any better to drive for the changes. Faster yes, of course. The intangibles are where I don't think either is where it needs to be yet. Steering feel and response (the Boss kicks back more but I'm not going to take that in lieu of a more granular tactility through the wheel), the way the rear end always seems a little surprised by what the frontend is doing, I don't think the car squats enough (too much front rebound?). Little things.

[MrBonus]

Originally Posted by Richbot

I didn't say they're largely similar, I said the Boss isn't necessarily any better to drive for the changes. Faster yes, of course. The intangibles are where I don't think either is where it needs to be yet. Steering feel and response (the Boss kicks back more but I'm not going to take that in lieu of a more granular tactility through the wheel), the way the rear end always seems a little surprised by what the frontend is doing, I don't think the car squats enough (too much front rebound?). Little things.

Fair enough. It does lack that intimate "fingers to the road" feel of the M3 but it is very linear and predictable unlike the GT. I agree with the disconnect between the front and rear but I think a lot of that has to do with the sheer length of the wheelbase and size of the car coupled with a less-than-compliant dance partner that is the live rear axle (although I think the torsen is brilliant at finding traction that shouldn't exist on a car like this).

Regardless, I'm very happy with it, flaws and all, as it is an entertaining, no frills throwback of a car. My 993 that preceded it was a more visceral affair, grittier and smaller with a cab-forward design that puts you right on top of the action but I am looking forward to using the Boss as a track car. My 993 was simply too expensive and quite frankly brittle in its old age to track as frequently as I desired.

For the record, I was prepared to buy an E90 M3 days before I bought the Boss but the dealership who agreed upon a price started to jerk me around shortly thereafter. I got a lead on a Laguna Seca model and figured I would buy it and if I hated it, I could always turn around and sell it for more than I paid for it. It turns out I really like the thing even if it looks like a leftover prop from an A Team spinoff.

[ns2000x]

Originally Posted by gthal

+1

I'm actually half thinking of modifying the M3 to make it a little more hard core (when it's paid off ) and keeping it as a dedicated weekend toy/track car. I would then pick up a C63 AMG coupe as my new DD. Well, just a thought anyway... by then I will have changed my mind ten times over

Yeah, because the AMG Black Series will be running around and you'll want that instead.

[DiavelM3]

Originally Posted by esquire

two things:

1) i'd take a second m3 in a heartbeat before i picked up a c63 as my second car.

2) it would have been cool to see the cadillac cts-v in this competition too.

I think the CTS-V would make a better comparison with the M5, not the M3 IMO..

[merchomini]

The mustang does look cool, and its cheaper, im sure with a little suspension work it would be pretttty sweet. But bmw prevails.......again

[satish_141]

M3 is the big daddy!!

Audi and Merc can only try...they can never meet the BM standard....Ford I dont even consider...

[Richbot]

Originally Posted by MrBonus

For the record, I was prepared to buy an E90 M3 days before I bought the Boss but the dealership who agreed upon a price started to jerk me around shortly thereafter. I got a lead on a Laguna Seca model and figured I would buy it and if I hated it, I could always turn around and sell it for more than I paid for it. It turns out I really like the thing even if it looks like a leftover prop from an A Team spinoff.

For what you want from the car I think you made the right choice.

[bmwm3redblack]

M-power Forever!!!

[mshab356]

Originally Posted by HBspeed

Says even more about the absolute lack of innovation or advancement that has occurred from BMW...since the E9X M3's debut.

If it aint broke, dont fix it!

[Ash83]

BMW

[elp_jc]

That's why I decided to keep my M3 . I know there're cars with a lot more power, more electronic crap, or what have you, but I LOVE how the M3 drives with a STICK SHIFT, and that's what's all about to me. Yes, it's slower than a DCT, but it has all the power I'd ever need. And I also happen to like the 'all business' interior. It's a keeper folks .

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Yup, and I agree the Boss is different from the GT but I wouldn't say it's much better. I think all of my issues with the Mustang would be solved by a 10% size reduction (weight is fine at 3500lbs, not worried about that) and about $10,000,000 in additional development time on the chassis. I'm thinking they're getting the best they can get from the current nearly 7 year old platform with the Boss. It's probably going to take another model cycle before I'm really happy with it but they're moving in the right direction and that's A Good Thing. Just think about what the "tire volume knob" aka "steering wheel" was like 12 years ago when the new edge cars came out, and those were considerably better than the SN95's. The M3 and M5 were the benchmark back when the Mustang was a car that only survived thanks to rental agencies and hairdressers and a few really lunatic fringe enthusiasts who just wanted a Mustang. If you wanted a competent performance car in the pony car segment you bought an F-body.

Building a great car for the money is one thing, building a great car that is great because it's great is something else. Ford is *almost* there. The fact that Ford is so close is just more proof that we live in the golden age. It wasn't always true that I would be happy driving anything made in this country short of the 'Vette and now even if we closed our ports to imported fully assembled vehicles tomorrow there are several to choose from.

Precisely, they are still on the S197 platform. When the newer platform comes out in 2014+ I think we will see a completely different Mustang.

Dave

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by MrBonus

Fair enough. It does lack that intimate "fingers to the road" feel of the M3 but it is very linear and predictable unlike the GT. I agree with the disconnect between the front and rear but I think a lot of that has to do with the sheer length of the wheelbase and size of the car coupled with a less-than-compliant dance partner that is the live rear axle (although I think the torsen is brilliant at finding traction that shouldn't exist on a car like this).

Regardless, I'm very happy with it, flaws and all, as it is an entertaining, no frills throwback of a car. My 993 that preceded it was a more visceral affair, grittier and smaller with a cab-forward design that puts you right on top of the action but I am looking forward to using the Boss as a track car. My 993 was simply too expensive and quite frankly brittle in its old age to track as frequently as I desired.

For the record, I was prepared to buy an E90 M3 days before I bought the Boss but the dealership who agreed upon a price started to jerk me around shortly thereafter. I got a lead on a Laguna Seca model and figured I would buy it and if I hated it, I could always turn around and sell it for more than I paid for it. It turns out I really like the thing even if it looks like a leftover prop from an A Team spinoff.

You need to get some lighter wheels for that thing. Did you see the weight of the Boss LS wheels? The fronts are almost 31lbs while the rears are coming in at over 33lbs. Forgestar makes the F14 wheel for the Mustang and can be had in 19X9.5 and 19X10 or 11" out back and they weigh almost 8-10 lbs lighter than the OEM wheel. Heck get a set of TSW Nurburgring wheels.

Dave

[rjd598]

so let me get this straight...if i keep my e90 m3 for another 20 years it will be worth a shit load of money?????

[bmw13]

I am die hard BMW and even more die-hard M. I must say though that Ford disgust-ang is very appealing to me.

[MaxL]

Originally Posted by HBspeed

Says a lot about the all rounded excellence and staying power of the M3.

Says even more about the absolute lack of innovation or advancement that has occurred from BMW, Mercedes, Audi or anyone else since the E9X M3's debut.

Totally agree on the first statement, but just as much disagree on the second. Look what progress Mustang made! I had a chance to drive 2006 version, and it was utter disappointment even compared to a Civic.

Also, take into account that all manufacturers are innovating in a very different direction now - how to keep up with more strict fuel economy standards and how to make all this nice stuff so that it still costs the same number of now much less valuable dollars... So tough to blame them here. Audi is still a disappointment - I had very high expectations for RS5 and totally expected it to beat M3, given the price and time they had. Looks like it will have trouble beating their own previous gen RS4

[M3_WC]

If Mercedes would put some bigger tires on the C63 from factory, it would smoke all those cars in the comparo.

The C63 is the quicker car, it just needs more rubber.

255 rears are weaksauce.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by MaxL

Totally agree on the first statement, but just as much disagree on the second. Look what progress Mustang made! I had a chance to drive 2006 version, and it was utter disappointment even compared to a Civic.

Also, take into account that all manufacturers are innovating in a very different direction now - how to keep up with more strict fuel economy standards and how to make all this nice stuff so that it still costs the same number of now much less valuable dollars... So tough to blame them here. Audi is still a disappointment - I had very high expectations for RS5 and totally expected it to beat M3, given the price and time they had. Looks like it will have trouble beating their own previous gen RS4

Agreed!

[richardg]

Honestly i expected the Boss to really out run all of these cars. So far everything i have heard/seen in any other mag was how damn quick it was.