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      09-14-2011, 12:28 PM   #67
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Instead of fixing the economy the president has decided to let it go down even more so that he can create more bureaucracies and expand the government even more. Look at welfare and food stamp collection numbers, they've gone up monumentally during Obama's term. Obama and the liberals like big government and making the people more dependent on it will make the government bigger and more powerful. As Rahm Emanuel has said, "Never let a good crisis go to waste."
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      09-14-2011, 12:47 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by BMW//M View Post
Instead of fixing the economy the president has decided to let it go down even more so that he can create more bureaucracies and expand the government even more. Look at welfare and food stamp collection numbers, they've gone up monumentally during Obama's term. Obama and the liberals like big government and making the people more dependent on it will make the government bigger and more powerful.
First of all, you've stated this about a dozen times in this forum already. Secondly, if you don't stop repeating this regurgitation of propaganda, I'll report you as a banned member and you'll be gone (again). I mean, how stupid does one have to be to think we're so stupid, we won't notice you're back saying the same things and posting in the same exact forums and coming from the same city? This says a lot about the level you're operating on.

But putting all that aside for a minute, you've got to stop with this big government crap. Obama has not made the govt any bigger, and nobody likes big govt, that's just a stupid premise. Having more people living off the govt doesn't do me any good, and don't say it guarantees more democratic votes, because that's moronic. The unemployed and the homeless war vets are not voting democratic. Oh, and poverty goes up every time there's a recession, duh. Just cut the crap.
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      09-14-2011, 01:17 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by E90SoFlo View Post
I read this thread, and Scotch and 11Series will literally poke there[sp] eyes out of there[sp] heads before they admit that our president is failing. No matter who the blame is on (we all can point fingers) he is still the President. Top of the chain, all the criticism goes on him.
I don't automatically blame the president when anything goes wrong - that's just stupid. I blame whoever or whatever's to blame. Honestly, I thought Bush was a total imbecile, but he's only to blame for some of his disasterous term. Why is there no mention by you of the complete stalemate of congress? And what about the effects of the worldwide economy?
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What he is doing is not going to work, he has over 2 years to "stimulate" the economy with his "plan" and we are still have the same if not bigger problems. There is no way to argue this, you can twist it, try to use logic for it, be a smart ass about it whatever, but there is no disagreeing about this.
I can and have argued this over and over - the US is in much better shape than in Jan of 2009.
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If you tell them the sky is blue, and obama say's its only blue on tuesday and thursday, they will somehow try to justify that.
That's your perception - say something that's factually true, and I'll agree with it.
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Originally Posted by E90SoFlo View Post
We need to cut taxes for small business and big business to making more money (same amount coming in, less going out = more money), that will create jobs (More money, more production), then as more people have jobs, they will start spending there money to buy things, that will create more jobs
You all say this like sheep, problem is, it's never been shown to be true. However, it has been shown to put more money in the pocket of the average BMW owner.
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and that will trickle all the way down to the democrats living off the government in Section 8 and welfare.
And we have a winner! What a bigot. What the hell makes you think that those people are democrats? More people with advanced degrees are democrats too, but you seem to be leaving out that fact, bigot.
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      09-14-2011, 01:33 PM   #70
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To think a towns revenues dont go down is silly...wonder why my property tax has gone up yet my property value has gone down by 30% over the past few yrs.
I'm soooo confuuusssedd.....

Are you agreeing or disagreeing, or a little of both? Your 2nd statement (prop tax going up) contradicts your 1st one (town's revenues do go down).

The fact that everyone's property tax continues to go up in this negative value market, is proof that a town's revenue always goes up. Because populations are increasing, and costs are increasing, pay is increasing, material costs are increasing, etc.

Therefore, thinking that the fed govt can do the opposite is stupid. Why don't you take all your retired republican folks who "want the govt to stay the hell away from their medicaire" (!!!), and go cut their medicaire and social security and senior discounts on taxes, and see how they like it.
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      09-14-2011, 02:50 PM   #71
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You are a funny guy...me ask you about math?...lol...

You have no concept of economics or the financial system this is clear...and your knowledge of politics is so jaded you cannot think clearly...as I have said many times, if you lean completely to the right or left, you are blind and being lead as sheep...you need to learn the TRUTH and make up your own mind...something you obviously cannot do.

You seem to imply everyone is spewing dogma and not thinking for themselves but you should listen to everything you say which is even more extreme...you and Bill Maher should pull out the huka together cause you do make a good couple...

No response, just insults. Back to good old mact333.

I'd love to swap insults with you, but I'm not interested in you ban-bait.

Meanwhile, the fact that the math that shows cutting taxes doesn't always result in more tax revenue in the future is just as true NOW, as it was before you went on your insult-spree. You accomplished nothing.

In fact, you yourself posted earlier in this thread a prime example of when cutting tax rates will NOT increase tax revenues in the long term.

So your entire dogma of blindly cutting tax rates as if it will always result in more tax revenue has been proven faulty. If you think cutting taxes results in more tax revenue in the long term, then zero percent taxes must provide tons of tax revenues, right? Nope. And anyone with basic math skills can figure that out.

I'm sorry that your hate for Obama blinds you to seeing reality.
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      09-14-2011, 02:52 PM   #72
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You don't need to cut social programs; you need to completely reform them. There's so much fraud and waste that only a complete reform will fix.
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      09-14-2011, 03:00 PM   #73
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So you libs are saying that you don't like big government? What about your stance on taxes? More tax revenue makes the government more powerful therefore it is big. You seem to have good intentions of providing support for the less fortunate, which is perfectly fine but to some degree, however you don't see the implications government dependence creates. You get less competition in the private sector, you get more red tape and regulations and you also get fewer liberties. I think American's should get rid of their entitlement mentality and do something about their circumstances. If a poor immigrant that came here with nothing is able to succeed I don't see why the American born here cannot. They want to receive but they don't give. A person on welfare has a TV, a home, food and other luxuries that some in the working class do not. Now that is sad because these welfare leeches are not only living off the working class, but they have a better quality of life. They know Big O's going to help them out.
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      09-14-2011, 03:12 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by E90SoFlo View Post
We need to cut taxes for small business and big business to making more money (same amount coming in, less going out = more money), that will create jobs (More money, more production), then as more people have jobs, they will start spending there money to buy things, that will create more jobs
Your economic fantasy is based upon TWO false assumptions.

Fallacy #1 --

You assume that if businesses increase the number of workers they employ, they will hire Americans. This is false, and it is very easy to prove false. Highly profitable US companies have REDUCED their US workforce over 3 DECADES of increased profits. What has happened over the last 3 decades is that these companies used their profits from tax cuts to fund the largest expansion of the middle class in the history of the world IN CHINA AND INDIA!! Why do you want to take tax dollars that would be used to fund the US Gov't, and re-direct it to provide more jobs in China and India?


Fallacy #2 --

You assume that businesses will hire more employees just because they are more profitable. This is also false. Businesses hire more employees when they have more DEMAND. Right now the US economy is DEMAND constrained, not profit constrained.

Many companies returned to profitability over the last 2 years. These successful companies have DOWNSIZED, and are making profits on less business. They aren't going to hire people until DEMAND goes up. Show me a company owner who says they would hire more employees without additional DEMAND for these employee's labor, and I'll show you a liar. Unsuccessful companies who are losing money DO NOT PAY TAXES, so tax cuts will not help companies who are losing money, much less cause them to hire more employees.


Blindly cutting corporate tax rates will NEVER spur job growth in the United States. I'm sorry you cannot see the world is more complex than your political dogma, and the complexity of the global market has invalidated your early-80's world view.

Don't worry, I don't actually expect a thoughtful response from you any more than from mac333. Feel free to mindlessly insult me without any actual thought or contents in your post.

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      09-14-2011, 04:02 PM   #75
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So you libs are saying that you don't like big government? What about your stance on taxes? More tax revenue makes the government more powerful therefore it is big.
This is asinine logic. The problem with tax revenue is that too much of it is coming from the lower middle-class, and too little from the upper class. This thing about "job creators" is bullcrap, my father was a small business owner, and he showed very little profit, because it was put back into the business. So the only hit to so-called job creators is their personal ability to buy a BMW X5M for their teenage kid.
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You seem to have good intentions of providing support for the less fortunate, which is perfectly fine but to some degree, however you don't see the implications government dependence creates. You get less competition in the private sector, you get more red tape and regulations and you also get fewer liberties. I think American's should get rid of their entitlement mentality and do something about their circumstances.
You don't seem to understand that welfare has been around since the 1930's - I didn't invent it, liberals didn't invent it, Obama didn't invent it. I have not once - in any of these threads - voiced any support for welfare. This is just another bug up your collective asses. You want to reform welfare, go for it - good luck to you.

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If a poor immigrant that came here with nothing is able to succeed I don't see why the American born here cannot. They want to receive but they don't give. A person on welfare has a TV, a home, food and other luxuries that some in the working class do not. Now that is sad because these welfare leeches are not only living off the working class, but they have a better quality of life. They know Big O's going to help them out.
I'm willing to bet that in your daily life, driving around in your $100K truck or Cadillac, you don't get anywhere near those on welfare, so you're talking from a reference point of fantasy. But again, go ahead and reform it. Why didn't any of the republican administrations do this during the last 30 years? And why is Obama somehow tied to this in your mind? He hasn't done anything but extend unemployment. All of you have a twisted view of what's really going on.
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      09-14-2011, 07:55 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
This is asinine logic. The problem with tax revenue is that too much of it is coming from the lower middle-class, and too little from the upper class. This thing about "job creators" is bullcrap, my father was a small business owner, and he showed very little profit, because it was put back into the business.

If this is true, you would know that unless your father was running a profit-losing business, either he OR his business paid taxes on the income. And that corporate income that is taxed would likely detract a small business owner like your father from being able to hire additional workers.

I personally believe the solution should deal more with the corporate and personal tax loopholes. It allows seriously wealthy individuals to minimize their taxes, and penalizes people who cannot afford accountants or money managers who are as creative at dodging taxes. Lower the overall tax rate for everyone, and chop out the loopholes - there's a good chance you will increase revenue AND reduce the tax burden on the vast majority of Americans at the same time. And the added bonus from a business perspective is it will cut back on the costs associated with filing taxes and making returns.


So the only hit to so-called job creators is their personal ability to buy a BMW X5M for their teenage kid.
You don't seem to understand that welfare has been around since the 1930's - I didn't invent it, liberals didn't invent it, Obama didn't invent it. I have not once - in any of these threads - voiced any support for welfare. This is just another bug up your collective asses. You want to reform welfare, go for it - good luck to you.

I'm willing to bet that in your daily life, driving around in your $100K truck or Cadillac, you don't get anywhere near those on welfare, so you're talking from a reference point of fantasy. But again, go ahead and reform it. Why didn't any of the republican administrations do this during the last 30 years? And why is Obama somehow tied to this in your mind? He hasn't done anything but extend unemployment. All of you have a twisted view of what's really going on.[

Just because welfare has not been reformed to date, does not mean that we are precluded from reforming welfare. If we want these welfare systems to be around in 20 or 30 years (or more), they MUST be reformed, as they are simply unsustainable in their current forms. The cost estimates are easily available for all to see - and they simply overwhelm even our most optimistic estimates of economic growth.

Your last point is correct, though. Aside from the health bill, I don't think Obama has really pushed for an increase in welfare. I wish he would be more aggressive about welfare reform, though, as I believe it is critical for a sustainable future.

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      09-14-2011, 07:58 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by BMW//M View Post
So you libs are saying that you don't like big government? What about your stance on taxes? More tax revenue makes the government more powerful therefore it is big. You seem to have good intentions of providing support for the less fortunate, which is perfectly fine but to some degree, however you don't see the implications government dependence creates. You get less competition in the private sector, you get more red tape and regulations and you also get fewer liberties. I think American's should get rid of their entitlement mentality and do something about their circumstances. If a poor immigrant that came here with nothing is able to succeed I don't see why the American born here cannot. They want to receive but they don't give. A person on welfare has a TV, a home, food and other luxuries that some in the working class do not. Now that is sad because these welfare leeches are not only living off the working class, but they have a better quality of life. They know Big O's going to help them out.
You're right. However, I think what the others are arguing is that cutting welfare in a depressed economic climate is not wise from a humanitarian OR economic perspective. We need to move in the direction of less dependence on the government (except for the most needy and ill) in order to rid ourselves of various economic and governmental burdens. But this needs to happen with a measured approach - we can't simply cut people off starting tomorrow.
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      09-15-2011, 11:02 AM   #78
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Wrong again......perhaps they write tickets and raise prop taxes BECAUSE tax revenue has gone down way too much, a fact in many towns...duh.

Populations increasing?...hmm, tell that to Vegas.

Pay is increasing?...hilarious...first of all it isnt...second of all, even if it did nominally in reality anyone that knows anything should know its decreasing...do you understand inflation/deflation at all?

When gas is at 4.00 instead of 2.00(and everything you need to live goes up sharply) and you wage goes up by 2%, do you really think you are making more?..if so, then you need to go back to school for remedial courses....in 1950's only the dad had to work to maintain middle class life, now both parents have to, to attain same lifestyle yet on avg wages have gone up significantly over the past 60 yrs...what does this tell you???

My one pet peeve with semi-educated demo's on here is that they truly dont understand economics and how mkts work yet they are quite opinionated when it comes to these subjects.

And yes govt can and will shrink soon...just watch...just like deflation can happen when we hit the tipping point...demo's just have no idea where this tipping point is, that is clear.




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Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
I'm soooo confuuusssedd.....

Are you agreeing or disagreeing, or a little of both? Your 2nd statement (prop tax going up) contradicts your 1st one (town's revenues do go down).

The fact that everyone's property tax continues to go up in this negative value market, is proof that a town's revenue always goes up. Because populations are increasing, and costs are increasing, pay is increasing, material costs are increasing, etc.

Therefore, thinking that the fed govt can do the opposite is stupid. Why don't you take all your retired republican folks who "want the govt to stay the hell away from their medicaire" (!!!), and go cut their medicaire and social security and senior discounts on taxes, and see how they like it.
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      09-15-2011, 12:04 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by mact3333 View Post
Wrong again......perhaps they write tickets and raise prop taxes BECAUSE tax revenue has gone down way too much, a fact in many towns...duh.

Populations increasing?...hmm, tell that to Vegas.

Pay is increasing?...hilarious...first of all it isnt...second of all, even if it did nominally in reality anyone that knows anything should know its decreasing...do you understand inflation/deflation at all?

When gas is at 4.00 instead of 2.00(and everything you need to live goes up sharply) and you wage goes up by 2%, do you really think you are making more?..if so, then you need to go back to school for remedial courses....in 1950's only the dad had to work to maintain middle class life, now both parents have to, to attain same lifestyle yet on avg wages have gone up significantly over the past 60 yrs...what does this tell you???

My one pet peeve with semi-educated demo's on here is that they truly dont understand economics and how mkts work yet they are quite opinionated when it comes to these subjects.
And yes govt can and will shrink soon...just watch...just like deflation can happen when we hit the tipping point...demo's just have no idea where this tipping point is, that is clear.
Congrats, you've won the pompass ass award for most demeaning post!

First of all, we all understand how the value of the dollar works - and it's NOT part of this particular discussion - but thanks for wasting my time. In actual dollars (not 1980 dollars or CPI referenced dollars) people on average make more every year, and costs for materials and services go up as well. Therefore, town budgets generally go in one direction - up.

I don't give a shit about Vegas, because nationally the US population is increasing (pointing out an exception to each of my points is an idiotic way of debating). When house prices fall, assessed values don't usually follow, but if they do, then the town just ups the rate, because costs are always going up. They don't cut the school budget by 30% just because everyone's homes are devalued. Yes, statewide a reduction in sales tax revenue may cause budget shortfalls, and then services get cut, but nobody plans to have lower revenue.

I have no idea why you're talking about buying power, as it has nothing to do with this discussion. And you're whole attitude that you know everything and we know nothing is really deplorable. Your platitudes about democrats are truly ignorant, and just shows how much of a waste of time it is to debate with you.

Saying that "govt can and will shrink soon" is a laughable position to take, since you're banking on a future premise which has no precedent, but we should just have "faith" in you, right?
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      09-15-2011, 12:25 PM   #80
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Please stick around for a few more yrs...you will have a nice surprise for you...my popcorn already ready......and no you still dont understand deflation/inflation...


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Congrats, you've won the pompass ass award for most demeaning post!

First of all, we all understand how the value of the dollar works - and it's NOT part of this particular discussion - but thanks for wasting my time. In actual dollars (not 1980 dollars or CPI referenced dollars) people on average make more every year, and costs for materials and services go up as well. Therefore, town budgets generally go in one direction - up.

I don't give a shit about Vegas, because nationally the US population is increasing (pointing out an exception to each of my points is an idiotic way of debating). When house prices fall, assessed values don't usually follow, but if they do, then the town just ups the rate, because costs are always going up. They don't cut the school budget by 30% just because everyone's homes are devalued. Yes, statewide a reduction in sales tax revenue may cause budget shortfalls, and then services get cut, but nobody plans to have lower revenue.

I have no idea why you're talking about buying power, as it has nothing to do with this discussion. And you're whole attitude that you know everything and we know nothing is really deplorable. Your platitudes about democrats are truly ignorant, and just shows how much of a waste of time it is to debate with you.

Saying that "govt can and will shrink soon" is a laughable position to take, since you're banking on a future premise which has no precedent, but we should just have "faith" in you, right?
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      10-26-2011, 06:50 PM   #81
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Its funny that some of us want a smaller government but when anything goes wrong it is the first one to blame... take your pick.
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