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      09-13-2011, 12:13 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
And you also think he still uses a pay phone, right?

Remember in 2009, Obama rammed through Congress Ė without bipartisan support Ė the largest spending bill ever.

It cost over $800 billion and Obama said it would lower unemployment and end the recession.

It didnít work.

Now, Obama wants another $400 billion plus.

But whatís inside Obamaís bill of goods?

Obama's American Jobs Act includes $194 billion in more spending on ďinfrastructure."

It includes another bailout of state and local public employee unions, and another extension of unemployment benefits.

It also provides $175 billion to extend last year's reduction of employee payroll taxes and $70 billion in new employer payroll tax cuts and credits to encourage businesses to hire.


But remember this is not permanent tax relief, itís just temporary with one goal: to put more money into the economy over the next year to re-elect Barack Obama in 2012.

Itís a scam, pure and simple.

Tax relief should be handled separately from Obamaís plan. A tax plan should offer tax relief across-the-board, and reduce overall tax rates for everyone. Permanently.

Obamaís plan doesnít do any of this and should be strongly opposed.


What's more, if Obama and Congress want to stimulate job growth with tax cuts, cut the corporate tax rate.


This act alone could bring back to America over $1 trillion in capital from overseas. Now that's stimulus!


Obama could also make the Bush tax cuts permanent, returning some level of certainty back into the markets.

But he won't.

The community organizer doesn't have a clue.
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      09-13-2011, 01:56 PM   #46
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Remember in 2009, Obama rammed through Congress Ė without bipartisan support Ė the largest spending bill ever.
Nothing has been rammed through by this admin, everything's been a fight and a huge compromise, plus the bill is a fraction of the deficit.

It cost over $800 billion and Obama said it would lower unemployment and end the recession. It didnít work.
The recession ended in June of '09 - try reading a newspaper. The stock market's also up 100% and the major troubled companies are turning huge profits (and paying back the loans with interest). Where the hell have you been? And Obama said a thousand times that employment is the slowest to recover following a major recession.
Now, Obama wants another $400 billion plus. But remember this is not permanent tax relief, itís just temporary with one goal: to put more money into the economy over the next year to re-elect Barack Obama in 2012.
Itís a scam, pure and simple. The community organizer doesn't have a clue.
This last statement directly contradicts your previous one.
A tax plan should offer tax relief across-the-board, and reduce overall tax rates for everyone. Permanently. Says who? Tax rates for high incomes are at historic lows - get real. Your statement makes no logical sense. How bout I reduce your income by 25%, permanently?
What's more, if Obama and Congress want to stimulate job growth with tax cuts, cut the corporate tax rate. This act alone could bring back to America over $1 trillion in capital from overseas. Now that's stimulus! Sounds good, but then why didn't Bush do this during 6 years of repub congress?

Obama could also make the Bush tax cuts permanent, returning some level of certainty back into the markets. Yeah, certainty that the fed will default on it's loans!
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      09-13-2011, 02:01 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by BMW//M View Post
An angel?
So you're just a newbie, also from St. Louis, with the same language skills and political beliefs, who happens to be posting in the same forums as Angel (stock market, politics, some locked threads). Wow, what a coincidence.
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      09-13-2011, 04:34 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
Remember in 2009, Obama rammed through Congress Ė without bipartisan support Ė the largest spending bill ever.
Nothing has been rammed through by this admin, everything's been a fight and a huge compromise, plus the bill is a fraction of the deficit.

It cost over $800 billion and Obama said it would lower unemployment and end the recession. It didnít work.
The recession ended in June of '09 - try reading a newspaper. The stock market's also up 100% and the major troubled companies are turning huge profits (and paying back the loans with interest). Where the hell have you been? And Obama said a thousand times that employment is the slowest to recover following a major recession.
Now, Obama wants another $400 billion plus. But remember this is not permanent tax relief, itís just temporary with one goal: to put more money into the economy over the next year to re-elect Barack Obama in 2012.
Itís a scam, pure and simple. The community organizer doesn't have a clue.
This last statement directly contradicts your previous one.
A tax plan should offer tax relief across-the-board, and reduce overall tax rates for everyone. Permanently. Says who? Tax rates for high incomes are at historic lows - get real. Your statement makes no logical sense. How bout I reduce your income by 25%, permanently?
What's more, if Obama and Congress want to stimulate job growth with tax cuts, cut the corporate tax rate. This act alone could bring back to America over $1 trillion in capital from overseas. Now that's stimulus! Sounds good, but then why didn't Bush do this during 6 years of repub congress?

Obama could also make the Bush tax cuts permanent, returning some level of certainty back into the markets. Yeah, certainty that the fed will default on it's loans!

Please answer his questions/thoughts with valid points or arguments but not excuses...demo's seem to counter everything said with excuses with some form or another...if everything is repub's fault and Obama cannot take the blame for anything then why did he bother to run for prez on the "change" platform...change?..hmm...same banks got the free money after he took office, he kept the same handout prog's under repub and demo presidents...he has always said jobs are priority number 1 yet he hasnt produced any jobs...he didnt cause the stock mkt to go up the Fed Reserve did and he doesnt control the Fed Reserve...president is given a choice of 3 Red Reserve chairmen and has to choose one of them, ya see, this is actually a important position so the president cannot really choose this position.

And the Fed Reserve will default on its loans?...and this will impact our govt how?...you obviously dont know what the Fed is cause if you did you would know the Fed cant default on any loan cause they have an infinite amt of money they cant print up...only problem is this, when they do, you and I have to pay for it through inflation...also, the Fed Reserve has nothing to do with our govt...they are private bankers...also, why would the Fed's default on loans when they dont take on loans?...that makes no sense...when they buy debt or worthless CDO's or MBS's they print up funny money, they dont borrow from anyone...they are the banks!...demo's always talking about the economy yet they dont seem to understand economics or inflation/deflation and who the fed Reserve actually is and what they do...sad.

And please dont respond to this cause I dont have the energy to argue with anyone today...hehe..
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      09-13-2011, 05:14 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW//M View Post
An angel?
So you're just a newbie, also from St. Louis, with the same language skills and political beliefs, who happens to be posting in the same forums as Angel (stock market, politics, some locked threads). Wow, what a coincidence.
Look, I don't know who this guy is but I guess by same language you mean conservative? And yes, conservatives dislike Obama for many of the same reasons we disliked Bush; they've both grown government to extreme and historically high levels that have made government both inefficient and full of waste. Frankly, a stimulus of $400 billion isn't going to help the economy, unless of course we give failing solar panel companies $500 million and then a couple more million to see why pigs smell bad. If you can't see through the smoke and mirrors that this bill is just to give more money to unions and help Obama's reelection then you're a lost cause.
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      09-13-2011, 05:25 PM   #50
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if I am a small business owner, I will not hire more people unless "true" demand is up...otherwise I just keep the savings from tax breaks for myself if any exist at all...only true demand and increase in revenues will cause small to medium size business owners to become "confident" enough to hire more workers...cause if there is something everyone understands its greed, people dont want to miss out of their portion of sales if demand really does go up.

Lets spend the entire 450B on infrastructure...at least this way we can add value to society.
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      09-13-2011, 06:16 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by mact3333 View Post
if I am a small business owner, I will not hire more people unless "true" demand is up...otherwise I just keep the savings from tax breaks for myself if any exist at all...only true demand and increase in revenues .

You have managed to figure out why untargeted tax cuts to businesses and wealthy individuals will NEVER spur either Jobs or Economic Growth. (There are tax cuts that work, just not these.)

Yet you will regurgitate the right-wing party line endlessly in thread after thread that the answer to everything is blindly lowering the tax rates.


Too bad your left hand doesn't know what the right knee is jerking.
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      09-13-2011, 06:18 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by mact3333 View Post
Lets spend the entire 450B on infrastructure...at least this way we can add value to society.
How do you want to pay for it?

With increased revenue, or by increasing the deficit and national debt?
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      09-13-2011, 06:19 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
How do you want to pay for it?

With increased revenue, or by increasing the deficit and national debt?
same way we payed for the bailouts...

the irony coming from a demo who is willing to pay for all social prog's we dont need.......shall we pay for people who dont work or for people who actually work hard building bridges, roads and schools....
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      09-13-2011, 06:21 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by mact3333 View Post
Please answer his questions/thoughts with valid points or arguments but not excuses...demo's seem to counter everything said with excuses with some form or another...if everything is repub's fault and Obama cannot take the blame for anything then why did he bother to run for prez on the "change" platform...change?..hmm...same banks got the free money after he took office, he kept the same handout prog's under repub and demo presidents...he has always said jobs are priority number 1 yet he hasnt produced any jobs...he didnt cause the stock mkt to go up the Fed Reserve did and he doesnt control the Fed Reserve...president is given a choice of 3 Red Reserve chairmen and has to choose one of them, ya see, this is actually a important position so the president cannot really choose this position.

And the Fed Reserve will default on its loans?...and this will impact our govt how?...you obviously dont know what the Fed is cause if you did you would know the Fed cant default on any loan cause they have an infinite amt of money they cant print up...only problem is this, when they do, you and I have to pay for it through inflation...also, the Fed Reserve has nothing to do with our govt...they are private bankers...also, why would the Fed's default on loans when they dont take on loans?...that makes no sense...when they buy debt or worthless CDO's or MBS's they print up funny money, they dont borrow from anyone...they are the banks!...demo's always talking about the economy yet they dont seem to understand economics or inflation/deflation and who the fed Reserve actually is and what they do...sad.

And please dont respond to this cause I dont have the energy to argue with anyone today...hehe..
OK, then I'll give you and easy question. Which is bigger:

A) 2.5 Trillion minus 1 Trillion.

OR

B) 3 Trillion plus 1 Trillion plus 5.5 Trillion
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      09-13-2011, 06:22 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
You have managed to figure out why untargeted tax cuts to businesses and wealthy individuals will NEVER spur either Jobs or Economic Growth. (There are tax cuts that work, just not these.)

Yet you will regurgitate the right-wing party line endlessly in thread after thread that the answer to everything is blindly lowering the tax rates.


Too bad your left hand doesn't know what the right knee is jerking.
I have to say, out of all the people on here, you arent the sharpest tool in the shed...you always seem to forget very important things I always say...please repeat after me...we must lower taxes and cut govt and make it smaller( a huge savings)...does this make sense to you??...yes or no?
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      09-13-2011, 06:22 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
OK, then I'll give you and easy question. Which is bigger:

A) 2.5 Trillion minus 1 Trillion.

OR

B) 3 Trillion plus 1 Trillion plus 5.5 Trillion
first you explain the math to me......consisely
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      09-13-2011, 06:25 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by mact3333 View Post
same way we payed for the bailouts...

the irony coming from a demo who is willing to pay for all social prog's we dont need.......shall we pay for people who dont work for people who actually work hard building bridges, roads and schools....
Are you talking about the TARP bailouts, the majority of which is being paid for by the banks themselves paying back the funds with interest? Or the Auto industry bailouts, which the majority being paid back by the auto industry themselves paying back loans with interest and issuing shares? Or are you just clueless about how these bailouts functioned?


No serious response again from yet another right-winger who can't do math.

Now stop being disingenuous. Do you want to pay for your spending you support with increased revenue, or by increasing the debt and deficit?

Last edited by 11Series; 09-13-2011 at 06:50 PM.
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      09-13-2011, 06:39 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by mact3333 View Post
I have to say, out of all the people on here, you arent the sharpest tool in the shed...you always seem to forget very important things I always say...please repeat after me...we must lower taxes and cut govt and make it smaller( a huge savings)...does this make sense to you??...yes or no?
More mindless dogma completely blind to the realities at hand.

As I've said before, there are things I would like to cut from gov't, just like there are things you would like to cut from gov't. The problem is that we OWE so much money, that cutting spending will NEVER pay back what we owe. Cutting taxes at the same time will just make the debt problem worse. Or do you only care about debt when you can use it to bitch and complain about a political opponent?

Any financial planner can explain to you how if you are having financial problems, you need to INCREASE revenues along with cutting spending. Not DECREASE revenues.


And if you want tiny gov't, move to Somalia. It should be your heaven.

Last edited by 11Series; 09-13-2011 at 06:53 PM.
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      09-13-2011, 06:43 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
OK, then I'll give you and easy question. Which is bigger:

A) 2.5 Trillion minus 1 Trillion.

OR

B) 3 Trillion plus 1 Trillion plus 5.5 Trillion

Quote:
Originally Posted by mact3333 View Post
first you explain the math to me......consisely

First you take 2.5 and subtract 1 and get 1.5.

Next you take 3 and add 1, then add 5.5 and get 9.5.

Finally you compare 1.5 and 9.5 and determine which is larger.

That's the math. Think you can handle it?



Now, which is bigger:

A) 2.5 Trillion minus 1 Trillion.

OR

B) 3 Trillion plus 1 Trillion plus 5.5 Trillion
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      09-13-2011, 06:52 PM   #60
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actually no genius...please tell me exactly what those numbers mean and the implications of it and how it will be accomplished........so funny guys like you who think they know more than everyone...

decrease taxes now--less revenue for shorterm, more for longterm
increase taxes now-more revenue for short term, less for longterm

such a simple concept yet so hard to understand....





Quote:
Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
First you take 2.5 and subtract 1 and get 1.5.

Next you take 3 and add 1, then add 5.5 and get 9.5.

Finally you compare 1.5 and 9.5 and determine which is larger.

That's the math. Think you can handle it?



Now, which is bigger:

A) 2.5 Trillion minus 1 Trillion.

OR

B) 3 Trillion plus 1 Trillion plus 5.5 Trillion
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      09-13-2011, 07:05 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by mact3333 View Post
actually no genius...please tell me exactly what those numbers mean and the implications of it and how it will be accomplished........so funny guys like you who think they know more than everyone...

decrease taxes now--less revenue for shorterm, more for longterm
increase taxes now-more revenue for short term, less for longterm

such a simple concept yet so hard to understand....

Until you reach the point where decreasing taxes now -- means less revenue BOTH in the short AND long term. I'm sorry you don't understand that math any more than you understand that 9.5 is bigger than 1.5. I can't wait for you to beg me to explain more math to you that you can't do yourself.

Last edited by 11Series; 09-13-2011 at 07:10 PM.
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      09-13-2011, 08:09 PM   #62
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Look, I don't know who this guy is but I guess by same language you mean conservative?
I call bu!!sh!t on you Angel.
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      09-13-2011, 08:29 PM   #63
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we must lower taxes and cut govt and make it smaller( a huge savings)
Wonderful, but in the recent history of the US, has this ever happened? No. No administration has reduced the size of govt. It's just a political catchphrase, used to get conservatives elected by a gullible public. This is at the core of the reality that conservatives are hypocritical liars.

Let's make an analogy between fed govt and local town govt. Does a town's revenue ever go down? Do real taxes collected ever go down? How bout your annual salary? Do you get a raise every year, or do you get regular pay cuts?

The truth is, conservative economics is a bunch of voodoo propaganda crap, it doesn't reflect the way the real world works. So the difference between conservatives and liberals, is that liberals accept the concept of reality, while conservatives pretend not to. And the biggest scam is that the wealthy should pay the least taxes, for the good of the country. What a scam.

Ironically, this expands to cover social issues too. All this family values anti-gay religious crap is often a coverup for hypocritical personal behavior.

BTW, when I said "Fed" earlier, I was abbreviating the federal government, not the federal reserve.
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      09-14-2011, 09:55 AM   #64
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I read this thread, and Scotch and 11Series will literally poke there eyes out of there heads before they admit that our president is failing. No matter who the blame is on (we all can point fingers) he is still the President. Top of the chain, all the criticism goes on him.

What he is doing is not going to work, he has over 2 years to "stimulate" the economy with his "plan" and we are still have the same if not bigger problems.

There is no way to argue this, you can twist it, try to use logic for it, be a smart ass about it whatever, but there is no disagreeing about this.

If you tell them the sky is blue, and obama say's its only blue on tuesday and thursday, they will somehow try to justify that.

We need to cut taxes for small business and big business to making more money (same amount coming in, less going out = more money), that will create jobs (More money, more production), then as more people have jobs, they will start spending there money to buy things, that will create more jobs, and that will trickle all the way down to the democrats living off the government in Section 8 and welfare.

Why is that so hard.?
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      09-14-2011, 10:14 AM   #65
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First of all, you need to understand economics...when debt load to GDP ratio gets tilted to an extreme, the bond vigilantes will awaken...ask Greece, Portugal, Ireland, Iceland, Italy and Spain...and yes I predicted europe would implode 1-2 yrs ago.

You seem to think the status quo can cont and govt can grow forever because this is "your" reality.

I am telling you this isnt so...when you see the Dow at the same level as the price of gold and corporate bond yields matches the Dow PE ratio you will understand...but for now, you can accept your reality...but remember this ppst yrs from now because it will become more pertinent...the govt is stealing from the masses and this will be clear soon...I am not going to go into how it will happen here though.

To think a towns revenues dont go down is silly...wonder why my property tax has gone up yet my property value has gone down by 30% pver the past few yrs...wonder why the cops are writing tickets on the freeways at the rate they do...wonder why the govt is laying people off right now yet govt cant get smaller?...their revenues cant go down?.

Although we disagree on many things, I appreciate the manner in which you argue...unlike somebody on here who is so blind and passionate and feels he knows everything to the point he looks ludicrous, at least you argue in a reasonable way.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
Wonderful, but in the recent history of the US, has this ever happened? No. No administration has reduced the size of govt. It's just a political catchphrase, used to get conservatives elected by a gullible public. This is at the core of the reality that conservatives are hypocritical liars.

Let's make an analogy between fed govt and local town govt. Does a town's revenue ever go down? Do real taxes collected ever go down? How bout your annual salary? Do you get a raise every year, or do you get regular pay cuts?

The truth is, conservative economics is a bunch of voodoo propaganda crap, it doesn't reflect the way the real world works. So the difference between conservatives and liberals, is that liberals accept the concept of reality, while conservatives pretend not to. And the biggest scam is that the wealthy should pay the least taxes, for the good of the country. What a scam.

Ironically, this expands to cover social issues too. All this family values anti-gay religious crap is often a coverup for hypocritical personal behavior.

BTW, when I said "Fed" earlier, I was abbreviating the federal government, not the federal reserve.

Last edited by mact3333; 09-14-2011 at 10:20 AM.
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      09-14-2011, 10:18 AM   #66
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Until you reach the point where decreasing taxes now -- means less revenue BOTH in the short AND long term. I'm sorry you don't understand that math any more than you understand that 9.5 is bigger than 1.5. I can't wait for you to beg me to explain more math to you that you can't do yourself.
You are a funny guy...me ask you about math?...lol...

You have no concept of economics or the financial system this is clear...and your knowledge of politics is so jaded you cannot think clearly...as I have said many times, if you lean completely to the right or left, you are blind and being lead as sheep...you need to learn the TRUTH and make up your own mind...something you obviously cannot do.

You seem to imply everyone is spewing dogma and not thinking for themselves but you should listen to everything you say which is even more extreme...you and Bill Maher should pull out the huka together cause you do make a good couple...
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