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      09-09-2011, 07:44 PM   #23
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What, you think Obama and the people he surrounds his cabinet with have any real-world business experience? They're all marxist professors who ended up in congress. How about the solar energy company that received $500 million tax payer money in 2009 from Obama's past stimulus and is now filing for bankruptcy?
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      09-09-2011, 11:00 PM   #24
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Ding ding ding...excellent observation...75% of our economy is consumer spending...3/4 of consumer spending 5 yrs ago was from tapping the home equity ATM...credit is contracting...credit contracts two ways...default or people paying back the debt...both are happening...this is a deflationary environment for the masses for things we own while we have inflation on the things we need to buy such as food/gas....worst of both worlds.

Businesses know we are in another recession and even a yr ago they knew things were shaky hence they werent hiring...they stock piled cash and tightened their belts.

Govt CANT solve everyones probs...they need to shrink and let true capitalism work...when the strong become weak and fail, they need to be replaced by hungry smart companies.

Less regulation and red tape.

If the govt is going to help, help the people directly or small businesses...not corporate and fortune 500 co's.
Good observations. The American savings rate has gone up steadily since the crash as well as the amount of debt families carry continues to go down.

So Americans are doing the same thing companies are - hoarding cash and paying down debts to get to a more stable environment. The days of turning out your HELOC for quick cash to buy luxury items are simply long gone.

The market needs to correct, the banks need to be more rigorous with lending standards, and people need to not spend more than they earn. If you don't like the idea of putting 20-25% down on a home to buy it, learn to love renting.
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      09-09-2011, 11:12 PM   #25
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Most Americans have learned to live within their means; it's time for the government to learn to as well. Now, I understand what 11Series is saying, however it doesn't make sense to give the government who are binge spenders more cash. It's like giving an alcoholic who's saying he'll stop drinking some brandy and then send him off to rehab with crates full of alcohol. Or to put it in other words, it's like giving someone who's full of credit card debt more credit. It just doesn't make sense. First you have to starve the abusers and make them make do with what they have and when they learn to manage money in a sensible way then they can be entrusted with more money. But if that happens then you don't need to give them more money (more taxes) because that would just grow them and create the same problems they had before. (big government = bad management)
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      09-10-2011, 08:04 AM   #26
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Well that may sounds like how things should work, but we know it doesn't. Unfortunately, too big to fail entities exist in this country. For example, I think the government saving the auto industry was a good idea. We would of been in a bigger economic whole had we not gotten involved. By the calculations I made on this forum many years ago, it would have cost the government more in paying out unemployment checks and loss revenue then bailing them out would have. We even got a decent amount of our money back. I wouldn't even want to know what our debt would look like if we let GM and to a lesser extent Chrysler go. I don't condone actions like this everyday, but sometimes desperate times call for desperate measures.
You are correct about this in the short run. But in the long term, I think this was a terrible policy decision, and sets a poor precedent.

In order to have a truly efficient market, you CANNOT allow the government to bail out private corporations. The fact of that matter was that both GM and Chrysler had made poor strategic decisions, and needed to be restructured and downsized in order to start competing again. Most importantly, these corporations needed to rid themselves of some of the liabilities that were hindering them. These things only partly occurred with a government bailout, leaving us with a firm that is less efficient than optimal.

The precedent is what concerns me even more. This sends the wrong signal to the private sector, and contradicts the idea of allocating resources efficiently. We need to get out of this cycle of 'too big to fail' at some point.
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      09-10-2011, 08:13 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by mact3333 View Post
Ding ding ding...excellent observation...75% of our economy is consumer spending...3/4 of consumer spending 5 yrs ago was from tapping the home equity ATM...credit is contracting...credit contracts two ways...default or people paying back the debt...both are happening...this is a deflationary environment for the masses for things we own while we have inflation on the things we need to buy such as food/gas....worst of both worlds.

Businesses know we are in another recession and even a yr ago they knew things were shaky hence they werent hiring...they stock piled cash and tightened their belts.

Govt CANT solve everyones probs...they need to shrink and let true capitalism work...when the strong become weak and fail, they need to be replaced by hungry smart companies.

Less regulation and red tape.

If the govt is going to help, help the people directly or small businesses...not corporate and fortune 500 co's.
I think part of the issue is that some people still feel that our path out of this current economic mess is to push consumer spending back towards historical levels.

I disagree. As you noted, a lot of our consumer spending on the past was through debt financing; ordinary Americans literally financing their own properties in order to pay for goods and services.

I think our only way out of this is a strategic change in our economic activity. We need to go back to production and private investment, not high levels of consumer spending alone. The former two are sustainable methods of growth; furthermore, they allow us to finance our future private consumption.

Otherwise, if we simply wait for housing prices to rise in order to grow our economy and sell goods, we could find ourselves in the situation of Japan in the '90s, and face a lost decade.
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      09-12-2011, 09:27 AM   #28
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Can someone please tell me where Obama is taking the jobs? I know some people who might be interested.
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      09-12-2011, 09:52 AM   #29
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Yes, let's do talk about jobs. Nobama took office at 7.7% unemployment. We won't even talk about the rate for minorities, discouraged workers, others. Now the rate is 9.1%. If Nobama cares about jobs any more we could be headed for double digits. One and done!
You just don't stop spewing the same crap, do you? You've said this a dozen times, and it's just idiotic.

When Obama took office, unemployment levels were just starting to shoot-up from the recession; it was 8% when he took the oath, and over 10% in October of the same year. If you think this spike to 10% was preventable without reversing time, please tell us all.

Again I will repeat this for all you knee-jerk Obama haters: Look at Reagan's first term - unemployment was 7.5% when he took office, and it was 10.5% two years later, but of course Reagan was a great leader, right?

Anyone who thinks Obama is uniquely to blame for the effects of the recession is either a racist or an idiot. We are a country full of stupid whiners, who decry exporting jobs and foreign oil, while driving to Wal-mart in their Escalades and Navigators, so they can buy some cheap Chinese-made crap and save a few bucks, allowing them to afford data plans for their kids' smartphones and giant flat-screen TVs.
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      09-12-2011, 10:04 AM   #30
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Your the hilarious one, you prove the point.....the community organizer and all the rest of the delusional liberals can't even grasp the simple concept that you can't spend what you don't have !!!
You need to learn the difference between facts and Fox News brainwashing; the Bush admin racked-up the majority of the current deficit, the Reagan admin racked-up a huge deficit, whereas the Clinton admin created a surplus. So either you're an ignorant sheep, or an idiot. Which one is it?
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      09-12-2011, 11:41 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
You just don't stop spewing the same crap, do you? You've said this a dozen times, and it's just idiotic.

When Obama took office, unemployment levels were just starting to shoot-up from the recession; it was 8% when he took the oath, and over 10% in October of the same year. If you think this spike to 10% was preventable without reversing time, please tell us all.

Again I will repeat this for all you knee-jerk Obama haters: Look at Reagan's first term - unemployment was 7.5% when he took office, and it was 10.5% two years later, but of course Reagan was a great leader, right?

Anyone who thinks Obama is uniquely to blame for the effects of the recession is either a racist or an idiot. We are a country full of stupid whiners, who decry exporting jobs and foreign oil, while driving to Wal-mart in their Escalades and Navigators, so they can buy some cheap Chinese-made crap and save a few bucks, allowing them to afford data plans for their kids' smartphones and giant flat-screen TVs.
Oh, I get it finally! Thanks, nobama isn't responsible for anything! As president he's not supposed to fix anything, just sit in place and dodge responsibility (which he does VERY well!). SOMEONE has to have ownership of fixing this mess but I guess it's not the president (or just not this president). Who owns today? And when, if ever, does nobama own his presidency, is there a date? Whining, inactive liberal blame merchants are making things worse.
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      09-12-2011, 01:12 PM   #32
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Oh, I get it finally! Thanks, nobama isn't responsible for anything! As president he's not supposed to fix anything, just sit in place and dodge responsibility (which he does VERY well!). SOMEONE has to have ownership of fixing this mess but I guess it's not the president (or just not this president). Who owns today? And when, if ever, does nobama own his presidency, is there a date? Whining, inactive liberal blame merchants are making things worse.
You and your "nobama" are the only whining blame merchants in this forum. Can't respond to any of my points, huh? Let's recap: Unemployment peaked 9 months after Obama took office, at 2 percent above his inaugural date. You haven't provided any suggestion as to what anyone could have done about that, yet you use those figures in an underhanded attempt to put Obama's ownership on that. Also, you will not comment on the 2 years that Reagan let unemployment climb 3 percent, and why that is not deserving of the rabid hatred that Obama receives.

As to your inane "who owns today" rhetoric, grow up and have an adult conversation. Unemployment peaked at over 10%, now it's been at 9% for a while, and there's an ongoing rational debate as to how best to improve the economy, avoid falling back into recession, and gauge if government is even a factor in this worldwide economic situation.

Stop being a childish blamer and contribute something useful to the conversation.
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      09-12-2011, 02:21 PM   #33
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This thread is genuinely funny...funny how people can view same thing oppositely...nobody will change anyones mind...unless you research things yourself it hard to grasp the entire picture.

But I am done arguing with people on here cause it is a total waste of time and there are more important things to think and worry about.

if you have a decent job and your family is healthy then just count your blessings cause everything else is truly trivial.
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      09-12-2011, 03:13 PM   #34
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Obama has NO plan on how to spur jobs growth. Besides raising taxes he didn't offer any idea how to grow jobs. Yes, he said he'll cut some taxes for small businesses, each business will probably save a couple hundred dollars LOL, but what he isn't telling is all of the new taxes in the jobs bill.
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      09-12-2011, 03:52 PM   #35
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Obama has NO plan on how to spur jobs growth.
False.
Besides raising taxes he didn't offer any idea how to grow jobs.
False.
Yes, he said he'll cut some taxes for small businesses, each business will probably save a couple hundred dollars LOL, but what he isn't telling is all of the new taxes in the jobs bill.
False.
And you also think he still uses a pay phone, right?
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      09-12-2011, 04:49 PM   #36
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You say false without backing up your response. Open up CNBC news, The Hill and others and you'll find nice articles there.
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      09-12-2011, 05:16 PM   #37
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Here's an article from the most independent source of news out there The Hill:

The White House said Monday that President Obama wants to pay for his $447 billion jobs bill by raising taxes on the wealthy and businesses.

Jack Lew, director of the Office of Management and Budget (OMB), said the tax hikes would pay for Obama’s entire bill, which the administration is sending to Congress Monday evening.

The chief provision announced by Lew would be to limit itemized deductions for individuals who make more than $200,000 a year and families that make more than $250,000, something the Obama administration has previously pushed to do through its budget proposals. Lew told reporters at the White House press briefing that this would raise about $400 billion.

The administration would tax the income investment fund managers make, known as “carried interest,” as regular income instead of as capital gains, which has a low 15 percent tax rate. This is another longstanding administration goal that has been resisted by Wall Street as well as some Democrats.

The administration estimates the capital gains change would provide $18 billion in revenue.

The administration also wants to eliminate tax breaks for the oil-and-gas sector, which would raise $40 billion, the administration said.

More from The Hill:

♦ Obama produces jobs bill, wants it passed ‘immediately'

♦ Video: Obama asks voters to pressure Congress

♦ Obama sending jobs bill to Congress Monday

♦ Boehner wants CBO to score jobs plan quickly

♦ DNC launches ad campaign for Obama jobs plan

Another $3 billion would come from changing the way corporate jets depreciate. With a few other revenue increases, Lew indicated the total measures proposed by the administration would bring in $467 billion, $20 billion more than the cost of the bill.

Obama is expected next Monday to formally unveil his recommendations to the supercommittee created by the debt-ceiling deal. That panel of 12 lawmakers is charged with cutting $1.5 trillion from the 10-year budget.

Obama will challenge them to “overachieve” and cut more from the deficit, including enough to pay for the jobs bill, if necessary, according to White House press secretary Jay Carney.

“The president is asking Congress to make choices,” Carney said.

Lew and Carney said that Obama is hopeful that the supercommittee will overshoot its goal of cutting the deficit by $1.5 trillion, but the president is sending Congress a bill that is paid for now because of the urgency to get the economy moving.

“It can't wait until Thanksgiving and it can't wait until Christmas,” Lew said.

Republicans pointed out that the proposal on itemized deductions had run into resistance even during the last Congress, when Democrats held large majorities in both chambers.

“It would be fair to say this tax increase on job creators is the kind of proposal both parties have opposed in the past, Michael Steel, a spokesman for House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio), said in a statement. We remain eager to work together on ways to support job growth, but this proposal doesn’t appear to have been offered in that bipartisan spirit.

The White House dug in on its refusal to say how many jobs the package would create, pointing instead to an estimate from Moody’s that said the bill would create about 1.9 million jobs.

Lew noted that he was not a part of Obama’s economic team when National Economic Council director Christina Romer and Vice President Biden's former chief economist Jared Bernstein said that the original stimulus package would reduce unemployment to below 8 percent.

After months of being reminded by Republicans that the recovery act did not cut unemployment, which is now at about 9 percent, Lew said he thinks it is “dangerous to ever predict unemployment rates.”

This story was posted at 1:23 p.m. and updated at 2:16 p.m.
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      09-12-2011, 07:26 PM   #38
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Barry's earth-shaking proposals are truly too little, too late. Maybe if he had come forward a couple of years ago they might have had some limited relevance but not now. He's an amateur with no accomplishments, no focus, no talent, no balls and no ideas. He is such a lightweight that it's sad. And now, finally, after squandering his massive political capital on his left-liberal agenda, he comes with this set of solutions that no one thinks will do anything substantive to fix our employment challenges. Too late Barry! Too late for you to help Americans and too late for you to save a second term. We elect presidents to fix things and all he's done is waste our time.
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      09-12-2011, 09:53 PM   #39
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I just saw the republican debate on CNN and I've gotta say Ron Paul and Rick Perry were the best. Unfortunately none of the idiots on CNN are bringing up Ron Paul.
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      09-12-2011, 11:06 PM   #40
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Never mind, Newt Gingrich hands down was the best. I love how he attacked the white house because of their hypocrisy with General Electric.
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      09-12-2011, 11:24 PM   #41
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Michelle Bachmann's an idiot. When asked a question all she said was she'd repeal Obamacare (great). But Ron Paul on the other hand said what he'd do and what the reality is, plus he'd repeal Obamacare.
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      09-12-2011, 11:48 PM   #42
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Ron Paul > Gingrich > Perry > Cain
And LMAO at Huntsman, why the hell is he still trying to run?
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      09-13-2011, 02:04 AM   #43
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Ron Paul > Gingrich > Perry > Cain
And LMAO at Huntsman, why the hell is he still trying to run?
The real question is, why are you still posting, when you've been banned Angel?
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      09-13-2011, 07:46 AM   #44
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Ron Paul > Gingrich > Perry > Cain
And LMAO at Huntsman, why the hell is he still trying to run?
The real question is, why are you still posting, when you've been banned Angel?
An angel?
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