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      10-29-2013, 11:41 AM   #529
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I used to think marriage was a bad contract for a man to enter into. I have now realized it is the worst contract for a man to enter into.

The null position for a marriage should be if you get divorced, no alimony, no nothing for either party. Split right down the middle of any assets acquired during the marriage. If people want those things you should sign a pre-nup outlining that. Why do you have to sign one to avoid it!

The icing on the cake, really, is that the man is supposed to ask the woman with an expensive offering to enter into a contract that may later annihilate him. Classic.


It's a goddamn racket and we're brainwashed to believe in it.
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      10-29-2013, 11:52 AM   #530
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Dating means nothing for alimony. Many women put careers on hold once children come. Then, of those, many do not come back to work. Hence, you (the man) pay alimony. The longer you were married the worse off it is. In many states, 20 years married is considered long-term and you could be on the hook for lifetime alimony. At that time no one will care how much your ex made when you were dating.
Do I have to spell it out? You won't wind up falling in love with and marrying a woman you've never dated.


I'm OK with alimony if there was an agreement that she'd sacrifice her career for the kids, but then it should only be the difference between what she can make and what's necessary to have a lifestyle up to whatever the median is in your state. And, unless you're already at retirement age, it should sunset after enough years to get on her feet. No alimony for women who chose a low-paying career (e.g. teacher, trophy wife, etc.), no alimony to support anything above a median lifestyle, and no forever alimony unless you're already retired. There should also be no alimony for a divorce she initiates for any reason other than abuse- her choice. Women can take care of themselves.

The good thing about my ex being so fear driven is she gave up on alimony after I said I'd fight her until we both spent our last dollar on lawyers (which was a substantial amount). No kids, and she chose a low-paying career (even though she has more education than me, which I paid for!). Her choice shouldn't be my responsibility. She already got a huge chunk of money, most of which she didn't earn. I would've done it, too- out of principle alone. I'm nobodies slave, and this amounts to fractional ownership of your life...fractional slavery. It'd be easier for me to bounce back from losing everything, too.

I heard from a mutual friend that she got smacked with a healthy dose of reality now that she has to think about and handle all the things that just magically happened to be taken care of for her before. I feel bad for her, but I gave her about a decade of trying to get her to consider those things before pulling the plug. Far too long.

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      10-29-2013, 11:58 AM   #531
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Spell what out?

You suggested a way to "avoid" alimony and I was pointing out the fallacy of your suggestion.

And it's great you have all of these concepts of how it should work, but judges and state laws can give two shits about it - the whole thing is designed as a money grab for women.

Congrats that your ex gave up. Not all of them do.
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      10-29-2013, 12:04 PM   #532
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Alimony is based on difference in income. If there's no difference, then no alimony. If you agree she'll sacrifice her career to be a mom, then I'm A OK with alimony.

This alimony thing is a vestige of times past, when a woman would be damaged goods unable to find another partner or fend for herself. Ironically, it is now harmful to marriage. Let's say you had a job you got because you absolutely loved it. However, if it got old and you decided to quit, you got half the companies assets and half your bosses salary. How hard would you work at that job if there were some rough patches? Divorce is too comfortable for women, and I think it winds up making many of them not put the necessary effort into the marriage.

I like the idea above where a divorce just means parting ways, and you need a prenup explaining if anything in addition to that will be given.

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      10-29-2013, 12:13 PM   #533
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What happens if the woman makes more than the man. Is the man awarded alimony, or is he shit out of luck because he couldn't meet the standards of being a man?
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      10-29-2013, 12:14 PM   #534
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I am ok with some short term support to help the woman get back on her feet, maybe 1-2 years post divorce.

I think lifetime alimony is despicable. I also think stay-at-home-mom is overrated BS for school aged children. Once kids are in school, what the hell is the stay-at-home-mom doing exactly?

It's one thing that a woman agrees to sacrifice her career, and another when she just gets lazy and wants to mooch off the husband's income while the kids are in school and she goes to the country club and drinks wine for lunch every day, has babysitters and house cleaners, and complains about her tough life. Then gets a huge payday in divorce.

Unfortunately that happens a lot.

So, just don't get married.

I agree with your ideals and those posted above, but until they are a reality, marriage or - even crazier - re-marriage just don't make sense for men.
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      10-29-2013, 12:16 PM   #535
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What happens if the woman makes more than the man. Is the man awarded alimony, or is he shit out of luck because he couldn't meet the standards of being a man?
In some rare cases, it happens.

But guess what, a woman can go marry or even just move in with a new guy, quit her job, and then file modification that she has no income and not pay anything.

Good luck to a guy trying to do that!

Comes with the primary breadwinner category.
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      10-29-2013, 12:31 PM   #536
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My cousin, a dentist, pays alimony to her ex husband. They were only together a few years and have no kids. Shes a great woman and has a happy family now. She really encouraged me to fight (not that I needed encouragement)

Agreed that you don't need to be a stay at home mom once the kids aren't home all day. In fact, I think all that idle time can make people unhappy.

Another bad thing about marriage is, because she has you by the balls, she has less incentive to try as hard. In some ways it's healthier to think you could lose your partner at any time because it forces you to put in effort...to be their best option. It would miss some of the security though, but that security is often abused.
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      10-29-2013, 12:34 PM   #537
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dating 18-24 olds saves a lot of heachaches
You are heavily uneducated and incompetent, that statement alone proves it.
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      10-29-2013, 03:14 PM   #538
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I keep my $
What $? You said yourself you have no $, it's all your parents $.
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      10-29-2013, 03:37 PM   #539
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What $? You said yourself you have no $, it's all your parents $.
You know he's trolling, why do you continue paying his troll toll?
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      10-29-2013, 04:16 PM   #540
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You know he's trolling, why do you continue paying his troll toll?
I guess I'm lucky in that I can find the amusement in his responses. If you cant make something go away, then find a way to benefit from it. Alternatively, continue to allow yourself to be annoyed by that which you can't control; your choice.
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      10-29-2013, 07:01 PM   #541
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I keep my $
Yeah well that's nice and all.

What do you work for as a job? SOunds great to be you, driving lambos and shit.
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      10-30-2013, 12:10 AM   #542
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Your sanity is worth every fucking penny. Fight for custody and dump her on the curb with the $56k per year.
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      10-30-2013, 06:42 AM   #543
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I go around chase girls and women all day lol
There's no women in BC,. Its just a bunch of fairy wand waving eskimos. That's fine if you are in men, no need to be ashamed about it and hide behind your keyboard?
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      10-31-2013, 12:38 PM   #544
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This is some good input, and I value your statement. Being blunt, is also being honest. I still question if she is the right woman. I do have the satisfaction of knowing that neither of us would ever stay from one another, and she is a great person with a huge heart, she just tends to be a real bitch at times. I know she wants to get married some day, however, that road still has a lot of miles to be traveled.

How well do you both handle opposing opinions on certain matters? Raising children (if you have any), financials, etc?

Our conflicting ideologies tend to cause heated conversations that I feel should easily be handled with a few comments and let be done, but end up turning into 2 hours of nonsense.
I think you raise a very good question, and one you've evidently thought about a fair bit - how do others handle opposing opinions on certain matters?

To be honest, it depends on the what the opinion is about. If its little stuff, then we can quibble a little, ultimately, its usually a compromise or one of us decides its not too important and the other opinion is conceded to.

But when it comes to the big stuff, its stuff we talked about and already agree about before we got married. IMO, there are probably four "pillars" that I would suggest both need to be aligned to, because if you are not, then I think it will drive you apart.

These are: Money (spender / saver), Religion, Kids (how many, do each agree on the type of discipline that will be used, etc), and Politics.

My wife and I discussed all four - for me, politics is completely unimportant to me, and its only moderate to her, but we do share a similar view anyways, and for the remainder, we are exactly alike and agree with each other.

And I think its these bigger things that you're really asking about - the little stuff doesn't really matter at the end of the day. I would seriously encourage you to push the matter such that before you decide on anything (ie. proposal), that you definitely agree on all four areas.

I'd still be a little concerned about a couple that disagrees on an area, but agrees how to resolve such differences in the future - that MAY work, but I really feel that both parties will (when the situation arises) not realize what they really agreed to do to resolve the situation and will ultimately want their way, or at least more of their way then what they originally decided to do to resolve the disagreement.

Best of luck either way - I mean that to everyone going through that situation.

But marriage is different from a healthy long term relationship. But I think in order to really understand that, you actually need to be in a healthy marriage (to the right woman).

I would argue this is somewhat similar to having children (I don't have any). Currently, I don't understand how a mother or father can feel such deep love for their kid once they have the baby (I just don't love babies). But I talk to everyone who has had children and they say its an amazing experience and something just changes in them (and I do see a change). So I recognize that while I don't understand it, I believe that it will likely happen when I have my own.
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      10-31-2013, 12:45 PM   #545
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What happens if the woman makes more than the man. Is the man awarded alimony, or is he shit out of luck because he couldn't meet the standards of being a man?
My wife's good friend paid out $2k /month to her loser Ex AFTER buying his portion of the house out that she owned before they got married.

It can go both ways.
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      10-31-2013, 12:51 PM   #546
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After reading all the posts talking about how kids can ruin a relationship, I thought I'd put my bit in. I was friends with my boyfriend for about 3 years, and we'd been dating for not even one when I found out I was pregnant (before people throw shit about birth control let's just say there's a reason they say 99.9%). I was 20, he was 26. We both come from divorced households where one parent completely screwed the other (my dad screwed my mom; his mom got the house, extensive alimony, and college for 3 kids paid in full from his RETIRED dad), and so it meant a lot to us to have a family where the parents were together and loved each other. We focus on working together every day, and with that in mind, the kid has brought us so much closer. It forced us to work through petty arguments that might have otherwise torn us apart, and to accept each other's flaws while working on our own. I think most importantly, we are completely honest with each other, whether about just needing a break from parenthood sometimes (we do have a full-time nanny, I cannot recommend this enough even if it's just so you can eat and shower) or about how boring the sex was.

While I am very maternal, it's obviously not easy having a kid so young and not being able to do many things or knowing that your tatas will never be quite as perky again. No matter what age you are, you never feel quite as attractive or desirable again, and that's hard for any woman. However, there's not a day that goes by that I'm not stunningly happy to have my family, and when I look at my boyfriend, I feel so much love and gratitude for bringing our son into my life.

That being said, if we do get married, we are both extremely pro pre-nup. Some people say it breeds distrust, but I think it just makes it so there's nothing to argue about and no petty planning needed. Keep everything separate as much as you can, understand that people change, and hope that you can change together. And certainly have little mini-mes, just make sure wifey gets some of that assurance that she's beautiful. Keeping your lady in high self-esteem can lead to her being willing to add other people to your bed, which I find is a good way to break up the inevitable sexual monotony.

Sorry for the essay.
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      10-31-2013, 01:03 PM   #547
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I think you raise a very good question, and one you've evidently thought about a fair bit - how do others handle opposing opinions on certain matters?

To be honest, it depends on the what the opinion is about. If its little stuff, then we can quibble a little, ultimately, its usually a compromise or one of us decides its not too important and the other opinion is conceded to.

But when it comes to the big stuff, its stuff we talked about and already agree about before we got married. IMO, there are probably four "pillars" that I would suggest both need to be aligned to, because if you are not, then I think it will drive you apart.

These are: Money (spender / saver), Religion, Kids (how many, do each agree on the type of discipline that will be used, etc), and Politics.

My wife and I discussed all four - for me, politics is completely unimportant to me, and its only moderate to her, but we do share a similar view anyways, and for the remainder, we are exactly alike and agree with each other.

And I think its these bigger things that you're really asking about - the little stuff doesn't really matter at the end of the day. I would seriously encourage you to push the matter such that before you decide on anything (ie. proposal), that you definitely agree on all four areas.

I'd still be a little concerned about a couple that disagrees on an area, but agrees how to resolve such differences in the future - that MAY work, but I really feel that both parties will (when the situation arises) not realize what they really agreed to do to resolve the situation and will ultimately want their way, or at least more of their way then what they originally decided to do to resolve the disagreement.


Best of luck either way - I mean that to everyone going through that situation.

But marriage is different from a healthy long term relationship. But I think in order to really understand that, you actually need to be in a healthy marriage (to the right woman).

I would argue this is somewhat similar to having children (I don't have any). Currently, I don't understand how a mother or father can feel such deep love for their kid once they have the baby (I just don't love babies). But I talk to everyone who has had children and they say its an amazing experience and something just changes in them (and I do see a change). So I recognize that while I don't understand it, I believe that it will likely happen when I have my own.
Those four points are huge, I can attest to that. Politics are not high on either of our priority lists, but I actually follow what is going on in our country, she just hears about it from others. Children, we can agree on a number, but when it comes to raising, I can see this to be a big problem. Financials, she would be living off me while she goes to school full time, she is afraid of this, but I am financially responsible and have handled my own since I was a lad. Religion, she is kind of a believer, and I am most definitely a believer. I am not a church goer, but I believe in the word and allowing it to play a role in life to give some structure on how someone should present themselves.

The bold comment is pretty significant. We disagree on quite a bit, or she might see/hear something from me she doesn't agree with. We will argue and bicker for a couple hours, then finally say this is dumb, and agree to "change in the future", but once something comes up, we both go right back to where we started. It is very toxic, because her attitude when something bothers her, is getting hyped up and basically down talking, so I in turn, will deal it back. I am no ones bitch, so I don't take kindly when she gets an attitude. For example, last night, she wanted to skype at 9. I was sitting around waiting, never heard from her (typically she will say "im ready"), so I sent her a message and said "I am ready when you are" at 9:10.
She then turned it around into some huge deal that I don't listen, she said 9 for a reason, she shouldn't have to hold my hand and tell me what to do or how to handle a relationship and blew it all out of proportion. (This is one of those cases that shouldn't have been an issue to begin with).

Marriage is completely different, and I am trying to keep my blessings that she has much to learn, as do I, but it has gotten to a point where the whole marriage idea, for me, has gone right out the door.
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      10-31-2013, 01:18 PM   #548
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I think you raise a very good question, and one you've evidently thought about a fair bit - how do others handle opposing opinions on certain matters?

To be honest, it depends on the what the opinion is about. If its little stuff, then we can quibble a little, ultimately, its usually a compromise or one of us decides its not too important and the other opinion is conceded to.

But when it comes to the big stuff, its stuff we talked about and already agree about before we got married. IMO, there are probably four "pillars" that I would suggest both need to be aligned to, because if you are not, then I think it will drive you apart.

These are: Money (spender / saver), Religion, Kids (how many, do each agree on the type of discipline that will be used, etc), and Politics.

My wife and I discussed all four - for me, politics is completely unimportant to me, and its only moderate to her, but we do share a similar view anyways, and for the remainder, we are exactly alike and agree with each other.

And I think its these bigger things that you're really asking about - the little stuff doesn't really matter at the end of the day. I would seriously encourage you to push the matter such that before you decide on anything (ie. proposal), that you definitely agree on all four areas.

I'd still be a little concerned about a couple that disagrees on an area, but agrees how to resolve such differences in the future - that MAY work, but I really feel that both parties will (when the situation arises) not realize what they really agreed to do to resolve the situation and will ultimately want their way, or at least more of their way then what they originally decided to do to resolve the disagreement.

Best of luck either way - I mean that to everyone going through that situation.

But marriage is different from a healthy long term relationship. But I think in order to really understand that, you actually need to be in a healthy marriage (to the right woman).

I would argue this is somewhat similar to having children (I don't have any). Currently, I don't understand how a mother or father can feel such deep love for their kid once they have the baby (I just don't love babies). But I talk to everyone who has had children and they say its an amazing experience and something just changes in them (and I do see a change). So I recognize that while I don't understand it, I believe that it will likely happen when I have my own.
Totally agree with nearly everything you stated. You have to be clear on those 4 pillars and agree to be open to revisit them should one of you change their mind about something. (kids for example)

My wife and i rolled over all those topics and saw eye to eye on the big stuff. So when we argue it's mostly about who's turn it is to pick what we eat that night.

What works financial for us is that we have a joint checking account and each have a personal account. We each put into the joint account based on our aftertax income. We put in an amount that leaves us both with the same amount of personal money left over for our personal use. In that joint account includes monthly expenditures (groceries, food, utilities, mortgage, etc...) yearly expenditures (property taxes, home insurance, etc...) and our saving goals including short term (yearly for vacations, home improvements, etc..) and mid term for investing in things other than retirement accounts and long term which mainly focuses on retirement.

Getting both parties on the same page financially removes a huge burden. If one or the other wants something that is outside of the budget, it's the budget that both agreed on that says no. Not the spouse, thus side stepping the potential for built up resentment.



The only thing i don't agree with is this enormous love that parents feel for their kids. Don't get me wrong, kids are to be loved unconditionally. But if you're married i believe the hierarchy should always be Spouse, Kids, extended family. If you have a deeper love for a child than you do for your spouse, something is wrong with the relationship. You'll be hard pressed to find a woman who will chose their spouse over their child in a life and death situation. This to me is completely backwards and a recipe for relationship disaster or at least a marriage of tolerated misery.

We have an epidemic of HUGE proportions in this country because many parents place the bulk of their love on their children rather than their spouses. And since those children aren't capable of providing for themselves, most of these parents slip into a subservient role rather than a disciplinarian role that comes with unconditional love.

This does is a disservice to those kids as they never learn about disappointment until they leave the protective environment of their parents' home. It's the parent's responsibility to prepare their children to be productive members of society and this can easily get lost when a parent is giving a child everything they want.
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      10-31-2013, 01:28 PM   #549
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The only thing i don't agree with is this enormous love that parents feel for their kids. Don't get me wrong, kids are to be loved unconditionally. But if you're married i believe the hierarchy should always be Spouse, Kids, extended family. If you have a deeper love for a child than you do for your spouse, something is wrong with the relationship. You'll be hard pressed to find a woman who will chose their spouse over their child in a life and death situation. This to me is completely backwards and a recipe for relationship disaster or at least a marriage of tolerated misery.

We have an epidemic of HUGE proportions in this country because many parents place the bulk of their love on their children rather than their spouses. And since those children aren't capable of providing for themselves, most of these parents slip into a subservient role rather than a disciplinarian role that comes with unconditional love.

This does is a disservice to those kids as they never learn about disappointment until they leave the protective environment of their parents' home. It's the parent's responsibility to prepare their children to be productive members of society and this can easily get lost when a parent is giving a child everything they want.
I don't think all these traits necessarily go hand in hand. Would I save my kid over my SO in a life or death situation? Kid can't help himself, boyfriend can, so, uh, yeah. Does this mean I'm going to give my kid everything and spoil him until he's a soft little boy with a victim mentality, and always side with him rather than my SO? Absolutely not.

Do I love him more than I do my SO? In a different way, but probably. I'm chemically designed to. That doesn't mean there's something wrong with my relationship, or that I can't fully love my SO. But perhaps that's just my experience.
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      10-31-2013, 01:33 PM   #550
Mr Tonka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billup View Post

Marriage is completely different, and I am trying to keep my blessings that she has much to learn, as do I, but it has gotten to a point where the whole marriage idea, for me, has gone right out the door.
Sometimes it's hard to hear when already in a relationship but part of being in the right relationship is being in it with the right person. Keep in mind that if she's not right for you, then you aren't right for her.

Being polite and "doing the right thing" by proposing has ruined millions of marriages and many lives.

The skyping at 9 thing isn't all that uncommon though. As long as she can understand that you are a creature of habit and that once we have done the same thing more than a hand full of times that you assume we are going to continue doing that until otherwise notified. In her eyes, you were notified.

Same thing happened with my wife and i one night. Centered around dinner of course. We always get chipoltle on tuesday nights and i stop and pick it up on the way home. I picked it up one night and when i got home she was already making dinner. Now i mean for like 3 months, ever tuesday i picked up Chipoltle. And she saw no fault in her actions of making dinner on Tuesday night. I didn't make anything better when i opted to eat Chipoltle that night.

So, now I always text, Chipoltle? when on the way home and she responds or i don't get it.
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