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      08-25-2011, 09:48 AM   #1
gallian93
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F30 M3 / F32 M3 too hot to turbo... really?

Hey guys.
I was wondering if anyone else saw this

http://www.topspeed.com/cars/porsche-gt2/ke1715.html

I am a little worried about the blow back for even referring to the US version of Top Gear... but that said, I hate the show but like Tanner.

Firstly I know very little about forced induction, but it scares me that you can drop a ton of cash-ola on a supercar and not have it perform on demand….
“Yeah… the car is wicked fast… except today… it’s a touch too hot… I am down 50-60 HP”

My question to the people that are probably a lot smarter about this stuff than me is that, is the next generation Ms with turbo rather than naturally aspirated motors going to have the same issues?


For those that are going to say that 640BHP minus 50 … what is the big deal?
I have 414 under my hood now. I don’t used them all, BUT paid for them and like knowing that I got what I paid for and can get them any time I’d like

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      08-25-2011, 09:51 AM   #2
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I seen this episode and thought the same thing. 50hp loss because of heat, crazy.

And im not ashamed to admit that I like the US version of Top Gear as well as the UK version.
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      08-25-2011, 10:11 AM   #3
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I think it just makes for better episode doing it at night. The show does add a little drama. Engines hp Fluctuates depending on temp and humidity. So yes it is possible to see 50hp difference on high hp cars. Doubt one will notice 50hp on a 600+ enigine tho.
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      08-25-2011, 10:19 AM   #4
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lol @ cash-ola
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      08-25-2011, 10:23 AM   #5
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I would think the GT2 RS lost more than 50-60 hp if he was able to feel a big difference. From his reaction during that episode, it seemed like a big difference. But like Edjay said, perhaps they wanted more drama.

Porsche probably wasn't too happy with Tanner mentioning the power loss. That might have persuaded a few potential buyers to go look at the 458 Italia. Or wait for a track version of the 458.
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      08-25-2011, 10:40 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjw2331 View Post
I would think the GT2 RS lost more than 50-60 hp if he was able to feel a big difference. From his reaction during that episode, it seemed like a big difference. But like Edjay said, perhaps they wanted more drama.

Porsche probably wasn't too happy with Tanner mentioning the power loss. That might have persuaded a few potential buyers to go look at the 458 Italia. Or wait for a track version of the 458.
The show mentioned that the entire production run is already sold out so I'm sure Porsche will be a little less unhappy about that.
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      08-25-2011, 11:02 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gallian93 View Post
Hey guys.
I was wondering if anyone else saw this

http://www.topspeed.com/cars/porsche-gt2/ke1715.html

I am a little worried about the blow back for even referring to the US version of Top Gear... but that said, I hate the show but like Tanner.

Firstly I know very little about forced induction, but it scares me that you can drop a ton of cash-ola on a supercar and not have it perform on demand….
“Yeah… the car is wicked fast… except today… it’s a touch too hot… I am down 50-60 HP”

My question to the people that are probably a lot smarter about this stuff than me is that, is the next generation Ms with turbo rather than naturally aspirated motors going to have the same issues?


For those that are going to say that 640BHP minus 50 … what is the big deal?
I have 414 under my hood now. I don’t used them all, BUT paid for them and like knowing that I got what I paid for and can get them any time I’d like
According to the Society of Automotive Engineers, forced induction cars lose more power when it's hot out - but gain more when it's cool. The SAE provides different parameters for forced induction cars in order to correct observed power readings to Standard Day meteorological conditions.

So if you live in the Sahara, tough break. But if you live somewhere up in Montana or Idaho...

With a given that most turbo cars nowadays automatically compensate for altitude with more boost, so power doesn't fall off up to, say, 6000 feet or so.

Ah-h-h, a Montana blizzard. Time to play in your turbo car...

Bruce
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      08-25-2011, 11:17 AM   #8
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makes sense, if it was super hot and humid that day, the GT2 could lose considerable hp and performance.

heat and elevation (colorado or long island?) will be in play with Turbo cars. In general anytime air intake variables that effect volume and temperature change it will have a greater effect on turbo cars than NA cars, simply b/c the idea of turbo cars, to suck in more air and add more fuel to create higher hp, uses much more air than NA cars.

Also,high temperature will also effect the intercooler's core temperatures and cause the temperature of the air intake at the throttle to be higher than preferred, though the use of intercooler is still preferred in that case. I'm not quite sure when the heat soak will come in effect and be counter-productive to the alternative of not having a intercooler.
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      08-25-2011, 11:21 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
According to the Society of Automotive Engineers, forced induction cars lose more power when it's hot out - but gain more when it's cool. The SAE provides different parameters for forced induction cars in order to correct observed power readings to Standard Day meteorological conditions.

So if you live in the Sahara, tough break. But if you live somewhere up in Montana or Idaho...

With a given that most turbo cars nowadays automatically compensate for altitude with more boost, so power doesn't fall off up to, say, 6000 feet or so.

Ah-h-h, a Montana blizzard. Time to play in your turbo car...

Bruce
Doesn't the car/ecu again compensate for high temps with more boost? I think it is kinda tricky since more boost will create even higher air charge temperatures but still more air will be pushed to the engine... no?
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      08-25-2011, 11:24 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdosu View Post
makes sense, if it was super hot and humid that day, the GT2 could lose considerable hp and performance.

heat and elevation (colorado or long island?) will be in play with Turbo cars. In general anytime air intake variables that effect volume and temperature change it will have a greater effect on turbo cars than NA cars, simply b/c the idea of turbo cars, to suck in more air and add more fuel to create higher hp, uses much more air than NA cars.

Also,high temperature will also effect the intercooler's core temperatures and cause the temperature of the air intake at the throttle to be higher than preferred, though the use of intercooler is still preferred in that case. I'm not quite sure when the heat soak will come in effect and be counter-productive to the alternative of not having a intercooler.
In a way, it shouldn't matter if the car is NA or FI. At the end, power = air & fuel... On the other hand, FI might be more prone to high temp due to air charge temp going up (as you also mentioned). But then that can be fixed with bigger/more efficient intercooler.

At high elevation, NA is stuck with what it can suck, whereas FI can increase the boost (again air charge temp problem).
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      08-25-2011, 11:36 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erhanh View Post
In a way, it shouldn't matter if the car is NA or FI. At the end, power = air & fuel... On the other hand, FI might be more prone to high temp due to air charge temp going up (as you also mentioned). But then that can be fixed with bigger/more efficient intercooler.

At high elevation, NA is stuck with what it can suck, whereas FI can increase the boost (again air charge temp problem).
hmm interesting, I agree. though I don't agree with the larger intercooler as it can cause a pressure drop. You can't always go with a larger intercooler to offset temperature issues.
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      08-25-2011, 11:39 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edjay View Post
I think it just makes for better episode doing it at night. The show does add a little drama. Engines hp Fluctuates depending on temp and humidity. So yes it is possible to see 50hp difference on high hp cars. Doubt one will notice 50hp on a 600+ enigine tho.
see this part of the OP

Quote:
Originally Posted by gallian93 View Post
For those that are going to say that 640BHP minus 50 … what is the big deal?
I have 414 under my hood now. I don’t used them all, BUT paid for them and like knowing that I got what I paid for and can get them any time I’d like
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      08-25-2011, 11:41 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by mdosu View Post
hmm interesting, I agree. though I don't agree with the larger intercooler as it can cause a pressure drop. You can't always go with a larger intercooler to offset temperature issues.
Yes larger intercooler will cause the boost to be lower, BUT lower air temp = denser air. The thing I don't know is the relation between boost, temperature and density.. What I mean is, let say the ambient temp went to 40C from 20C. We put a bigger intercooler that will bring the temp back down to 20C.. Do we need a 2x bigger intercooler? If yes, is the boost half due to 2x larger intercooler? What happens to air density at the end?
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      08-25-2011, 11:46 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
According to the Society of Automotive Engineers, forced induction cars lose more power when it's hot out - but gain more when it's cool. The SAE provides different parameters for forced induction cars in order to correct observed power readings to Standard Day meteorological conditions.

So if you live in the Sahara, tough break. But if you live somewhere up in Montana or Idaho...

With a given that most turbo cars nowadays automatically compensate for altitude with more boost, so power doesn't fall off up to, say, 6000 feet or so.

Ah-h-h, a Montana blizzard. Time to play in your turbo car...

Bruce
lol....reminds of the old carnot engine i learn about when i was a kid (nerd alert! wiki it!) ... its all about "delta" temp
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      08-25-2011, 11:46 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdosu View Post
hmm interesting, I agree. though I don't agree with the larger intercooler as it can cause a pressure drop. You can't always go with a larger intercooler to offset temperature issues.
Meth.
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      08-26-2011, 02:33 PM   #16
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Doesn't the car/ecu again compensate for high temps with more boost? I think it is kinda tricky since more boost will create even higher air charge temperatures but still more air will be pushed to the engine... no?
You are correct, but higher air temps tend to mean less overall spark advance to avoid detonation. Let me tell you, a degree or two of total advance may mean 20 to 40 ponies in a forced-induction car, or even more at these power levels.

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      08-26-2011, 02:49 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by erhanh View Post
Yes larger intercooler will cause the boost to be lower, BUT lower air temp = denser air. The thing I don't know is the relation between boost, temperature and density.. What I mean is, let say the ambient temp went to 40C from 20C. We put a bigger intercooler that will bring the temp back down to 20C.. Do we need a 2x bigger intercooler? If yes, is the boost half due to 2x larger intercooler? What happens to air density at the end?
There is no direct relationship between intercooler size and "pressure drop", although the more efficient the intercooler is, the greater the drop between its inlet and outlet, for obvious reasons. No matter, though. They just crank up the boost so the engine sees whatever the manufacturer intends. Overall result with a bigger/more efficient intercooler is denser air at the throttle plates at the same boost level.

However, no intercooler is 100% efficient. Not even in the laboratory. About 75% efficiency is as good as it gets.

Drag racers get around this with liquid intercooling, stuffing the system with ice. Presto, temps at ambient or below with full boost and max timing.

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      08-26-2011, 03:02 PM   #18
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50hp in a car that makes 620+hp is ~8%, which isn't a huge variance given extreme conditions (I haven't watched the video so I can't comment on temps).
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