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      08-22-2011, 11:51 AM   #23
Singletrack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by img View Post
The Alekshop dyno (347whp, 258wtq) showed results that were about
10-12whp over a bone stock car. But the catch was that the car in
the Alekshop dyno had a quite a few other mods:
* Macht Schnell Air Filter
* RPI Air Scoops
* Primary CAT Delete
* Turner Test/Cross Pipe
* Evolve Stage-2 ECU Tune

This tells me that the majority of the gains over stock came from
the cat delete and air filter, as these are very well documented
and quantifiable gains. The dyno results are published in the
Dyno Database (www.bmwdynodatabase.com) for anybody to access.
The files are available for download so anybody can look at them
an scrutinize the results.
http://bmw.pencilgeek.org/showDyno.php?recID=399

The Dinan car from the same day made 359whp, and 257wtq. These
were the only two NA M3's on the dyno that day.
http://bmw.pencilgeek.org/showDyno.php?recID=390

Bone stock cars on this dyno range from 336-343whp.

The results are all in the public domain for anybody who tries to
find them. Until more independant dynos are done, it's hard to
say if the Alekshop and OP's results are the norm, or not.
The guy that dynoed his evolve tune, did not dyno on the stock tune, so I don't know how much that really tells you. You can guess at what he would of had stock, vs. modified with the stock tune, but there is no way to know. As you know, not all M3s will dyno the same value stock. I agree - need more independent dynos.
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      08-22-2011, 02:08 PM   #24
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my temp seems to be running hotter with the tune and the tach doesnt seem to wait as long to go to full rpms for the rev limit during initial warm up?
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      08-22-2011, 02:40 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stega View Post
The OP said he drove for "at least" 50 miles to let the car adapt to the tune...

He may have needed a bit more?? 100?
Yeah, I dunno. That is sort of my question.... Is there an adaptation period? How long is it? etc, etc. I'm just curious as I have heard there was a period of adaptation. I was hoping Paul, et al, would chime in with some "knowledge". I always wondered how long it takes, if any, to adapt to a new tune.
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      08-22-2011, 03:26 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by img View Post
The Alekshop dyno (347whp, 258wtq) showed results that were about
10-12whp over a bone stock car. But the catch was that the car in
the Alekshop dyno had a quite a few other mods:
* Macht Schnell Air Filter
* RPI Air Scoops
* Primary CAT Delete
* Turner Test/Cross Pipe
* Evolve Stage-2 ECU Tune

This tells me that the majority of the gains over stock came from
the cat delete and air filter, as these are very well documented
and quantifiable gains. The dyno results are published in the
Dyno Database (www.bmwdynodatabase.com) for anybody to access.
The files are available for download so anybody can look at them
an scrutinize the results.
http://bmw.pencilgeek.org/showDyno.php?recID=399

The Dinan car from the same day made 359whp, and 257wtq. These
were the only two NA M3's on the dyno that day.
http://bmw.pencilgeek.org/showDyno.php?recID=390

Bone stock cars on this dyno range from 336-343whp.

The results are all in the public domain for anybody who tries to
find them. Until more independant dynos are done, it's hard to
say if the Alekshop and OP's results are the norm, or not.
I am a dyno operator who understands in depth the dyno dynamics, dyno jet and MAHA machines. I am very used to dyno testing cars all year round and we are not just talking a few M Power cars here.

The first thing we learn and have educated the public about is that dyno's are to be used as a comparison tool ONLY. Not as a tool to give definitive HP.

The test from the above showed the evolve tuned car to be only marginally behind a car with pretty much everything thrown at it and we are also talking about a car which was running on 91 octane vs a Dinan car which was running 93.

The fuel is such an important factor here and yet even then the differences are alot smaller than they should be.
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      08-22-2011, 03:31 PM   #27
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Just to let everyone know that I am working with John now to see how we can get the iPhone app to give positive results with so many other variables at play at the same time.

Not going to be easy but let's see how it goes.

I will be giving him some basic guidelines and techniques to make sure the inlet temperatures are nice and low before each test as this has a profound effect on results aswell as tyres temperatures and many other factors which we can discuss.
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      08-22-2011, 03:40 PM   #28
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This was my car. I was indeed disappointed with the results but I do not have a stock dyno so all I really went by was what I had read on the forums about what the car dynos stock. Obviously this isn't the best way to gauge how much hp/tq the car had gained but I had nothing else to go on. Going into the dyno I was hoping for 360whp..

Maybe it was the dyno machine..I don't know..but the numbers seemed low to me. I'd love to get a chance to dyno the car again. My friend bought the car from me and it is basically stock now with just the filter and rpi scoops.


Turner's website claims about 40whp with the CAT delete, test pipes, and their tune. I was hoping to get the 40whp with my mods..wishful thinking maybe?


Quote:
Originally Posted by img View Post
The Alekshop dyno (347whp, 258wtq) showed results that were about
10-12whp over a bone stock car. But the catch was that the car in
the Alekshop dyno had a quite a few other mods:
* Macht Schnell Air Filter
* RPI Air Scoops
* Primary CAT Delete
* Turner Test/Cross Pipe
* Evolve Stage-2 ECU Tune

This tells me that the majority of the gains over stock came from
the cat delete and air filter, as these are very well documented
and quantifiable gains. The dyno results are published in the
Dyno Database (www.bmwdynodatabase.com) for anybody to access.
The files are available for download so anybody can look at them
an scrutinize the results.
http://bmw.pencilgeek.org/showDyno.php?recID=399

The Dinan car from the same day made 359whp, and 257wtq. These
were the only two NA M3's on the dyno that day.
http://bmw.pencilgeek.org/showDyno.php?recID=390

Bone stock cars on this dyno range from 336-343whp.

The results are all in the public domain for anybody who tries to
find them. Until more independant dynos are done, it's hard to
say if the Alekshop and OP's results are the norm, or not.
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      08-22-2011, 03:48 PM   #29
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a) Dyno's are comparison tools for before and after. Absolutely.
b) 0-60 pulls are ok but to be honest. To much variables here. Traction control. Underhood heat, ...

What I and many of my friends always did. Get on the highway or autobahn.
It's far more accurate to test that in a range where not all happens within milliseconds.

If a mod or tune or whatever really gains performance. Do several pulls. For example 3rd gear - starting at 30mph and floor it till red line. Stop the time or use an iPhone app or something similar.
Do that with 4th gear several times, too and take the avarage between all 3rd and 4th gear pulls.

Leave the car rollin at +/- 50mph for a minute or so between the pulls to get the temperature out of the engine bay.

If the new tune really helps you will see it more obvious as here we're talking about loooong pulls were it's all about torque and hp and not only quick shots where a lot is happening at the traction level.

just my2cents...
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      08-22-2011, 03:51 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood Hogan View Post
This was my car. I was indeed disappointed with the results but I do not have a stock dyno so all I really went by was what I had read on the forums about what the car dynos stock. Obviously this isn't the best way to gauge how much hp/tq the car had gained but I had nothing else to go on. Going into the dyno I was hoping for 360whp..

Maybe it was the dyno machine..I don't know..but the numbers seemed low to me. I'd love to get a chance to dyno the car again. My friend bought the car from me and it is basically stock now with just the filter and rpi scoops.


Turner's website claims about 40whp with the CAT delete, test pipes, and their tune. I was hoping to get the 40whp with my mods..wishful thinking maybe?
Again, we are missing the point of the dyno completely.

I suggest everyone reads up on correction factors which can and do have a massive effect on dyno results. I can write about this stuff all day long.

The point is this - your car did incredibly well against another M3 with more upgrades and way better fuel. That's all that matters.

If we want to go into more depth we can. For example, we can look at the AFR's and ignition timing achieved.

If an engine achieves the optimal ignition timing, cam angles and AFR it is performing as best as it can. At this point what power goes to the wheels are irrelevant.

The community as a whole needs to be a little more intelligent and stop thinking 1 dimensionally. That dimension being 'PEAK RWHP'.
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      08-22-2011, 03:53 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukester View Post
a) Dyno's are comparison tools for before and after. Absolutely.
b) 0-60 pulls are ok but to be honest. To much variables here. Traction control. Underhood heat, ...

What I and many of my friends always did. Get on the highway or autobahn.
It's far more accurate to test that in a range where not all happens within milliseconds.

If a mod or tune or whatever really gains performance. Do several pulls. For example 3rd gear - starting at 30mph and floor it till red line. Stop the time or use an iPhone app or something similar.
Do that with 4th gear several times, too and take the avarage between all 3rd and 4th gear pulls.

Leave the car rollin at +/- 50mph for a minute or so between the pulls to get the temperature out of the engine bay.

If the new tune really helps you will see it more obvious as here we're talking about loooong pulls were it's all about torque and hp and not only quick shots where a lot is happening at the traction level.

just my2cents...
A far more realistic approach.
Just to add to that, not only are you allowing under bonnet temperatures to fall but also intake air temperatures which are vital for achieving optimal ignition and AFR.
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      08-22-2011, 04:08 PM   #32
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Lets face it PEAK HP is what sells the product to a majority of the customers out there including myself. I'm not going to lie and pretend that I bought the test pipes and tune and thought about anything other that how much HP I would gain.

Yes, the tune made the car smoother, yes it was easy to load the files, and yes the communication by the guys at Evolve was excellent. But, I purchased my mods and expected certain numbers to show up on the dyno and it didn't. If anything I suspected that the dyno was a heartbreaker since both my car and the Dinan car read "low". I was happy that the car did well compared to the Dinan M3 which gave me some sense of satisfaction.

EDIT: the reason why I felt that the numbers weren't as high as it should have been was because the member who actually set up the dyno, dyno'ed his car previously at the same shop we went to with only an exhaust and apparantly dyno'ed right around the same nunbers that my car achieved. So yes that worried me a bit since I have "more" mods than he had at the time of his dyno.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Again, we are missing the point of the dyno completely.

I suggest everyone reads up on correction factors which can and do have a massive effect on dyno results. I can write about this stuff all day long.

The point is this - your car did incredibly well against another M3 with more upgrades and way better fuel. That's all that matters.

If we want to go into more depth we can. For example, we can look at the AFR's and ignition timing achieved.

If an engine achieves the optimal ignition timing, cam angles and AFR it is performing as best as it can. At this point what power goes to the wheels are irrelevant.

The community as a whole needs to be a little more intelligent and stop thinking 1 dimensionally. That dimension being 'PEAK RWHP'.

Last edited by Hollywood Hogan; 08-22-2011 at 04:14 PM.
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      08-22-2011, 04:24 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood Hogan View Post
Lets face it PEAK HP is what sells the product to a majority of the customers out there including myself. I'm not going to lie and pretend that I bought the test pipes and tune and thought about anything other that how much HP I would gain.

Yes, the tune made the car smoother, yes it was easy to load the files, and yes the communication by the guys at Evolve was excellent. But, I purchased my mods and expected certain numbers to show up on the dyno and it didn't. If anything I suspected that the dyno was a heartbreaker since both my car and the Dinan car read "low". I was happy that the car did well compared to the Dinan M3 which gave me some sense of satisfaction.

EDIT: the reason why I felt that the numbers weren't as high as it should have been was because the member who actually set up the dyno, dyno'ed his car previously at the same shop we went to with only an exhaust and apparantly dyno'ed right around the same nunbers that my car achieved. So yes that worried me a bit since I have "more" mods than he had at the time of his dyno.
I am aware of that and so are the majority of tuners.

Some take advantage of it, others don't.

You know I can change the wheels on a car and it makes a completely different HP reading? The shape of the graph will not change, nor will the ignition or AFR if tested consistently but you get more power!

Just this above statement should make everyone realise........

Use the damn machine the way it was intended and everyone remains happy.

Start asking it do to something it cannot and you end up in the massive confused state the BMW community remains in.
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      08-22-2011, 05:15 PM   #34
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UPDATE:

I've been working with Sal and loaded another tune today that Sal feels confident is the right tune. I took the car out and ran about 10 miles for the computer to get a bit adjusted. I know I should drive more but I wanted to get a test run in today and don't have more time. It is about 10 degrees hotter today than when I last did my runs so I'm expecting the numbers to be a bit lower.

using LC
The 0-100 13.26 sec

Better than the previous baseline numbers.

I will do more runs tomorrow and will post quality results.

The butt dyno felt the shifts harder...

I'm optimistic that this tune will do what we are all hoping a tune will do for our cars...

John
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      08-22-2011, 05:34 PM   #35
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Given the +10 Deg temps that's very good.

Just to also answer some comments from page 1 - We do not alter the throttle maps AT ALL anymore.

This was only done on demand for some people.

Not a great fan of throttle mapping!
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      08-22-2011, 06:08 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood Hogan View Post
Lets face it PEAK HP is what sells the product to a majority of the customers out there including myself. I'm not going to lie and pretend that I bought the test pipes and tune and thought about anything other that how much HP I would gain.

Yes, the tune made the car smoother, yes it was easy to load the files, and yes the communication by the guys at Evolve was excellent. But, I purchased my mods and expected certain numbers to show up on the dyno and it didn't. If anything I suspected that the dyno was a heartbreaker since both my car and the Dinan car read "low". I was happy that the car did well compared to the Dinan M3 which gave me some sense of satisfaction.

EDIT: the reason why I felt that the numbers weren't as high as it should have been was because the member who actually set up the dyno, dyno'ed his car previously at the same shop we went to with only an exhaust and apparantly dyno'ed right around the same nunbers that my car achieved. So yes that worried me a bit since I have "more" mods than he had at the time of his dyno.
Your friend's car is a different engine on a different day with different modifications. The dyno could have also been set up differently, not to mention all the other factors like weather. If you don't test scientifically, then it's hard to draw conclusions from the results. Dynos are for the delta, not an absolute value.
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      08-22-2011, 11:14 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wall$treet View Post
2 points-

1. A tune does not require ANY time to "adapt" people! The tune is what tells the car what settings to use-it is inherently "adapted" by flashing the ECU so adapatation is not needed. Adapting is only needed when placing a mod on without a tune or changing octane-it then within seconds to a minute will adjust and takes less than a block of driving.

2.I am wondering why evolve (sal) did not give you the proper tune from the beginning? Why would there even be a tune that is "better" than the one you had? Shouldn't you have gotten the best product from the beginning? And if there really is a better tune than how much difference could there be between his 2 tunes? SOmething is not adding up.

Poeple expect too much out of a tune. For decades and every car forum, tunes and cold air intakes and exhaust consistently promise gains and consistently disapointing buyers. Its like clockwork. Dating back to the 70s! The ONLY consistent gain is with removing primary cats-every car consistently sees a gain. Tunes on these cars do NOT increase real performance.

Ok, dude, seriously?

1. Wrong. This has been proven time and time again.
2. Wrong again. Altitude.

The fact that Sal was willing to sit down and work with a customer using an iPhone accelerometer app to measure power increases with a non repeatable and very in-exact measurement says that Evolve really cares and does right by people.
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      08-22-2011, 11:24 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kitw View Post

The fact that Sal was willing to sit down and work with a customer using an iPhone accelerometer app to measure power increases with a non repeatable and very in-exact measurement says that Evolve really cares and does right by people.
this has been my experience so far. he has went out of his way to help with anything i have needed.
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      08-23-2011, 01:08 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wall$treet View Post
Sorry but if you think a tune needs time to adapt you clearly do not understand a single thing about a modern car. If your level of understanding is this low then nothing anyone says will make sense. It must be similar to reading chinese for me-you must just see symbols on the screen with no understanding of what they are
So... Ok, explain how ignition and a/f fuel ratio TARGETS are hit.
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      08-23-2011, 01:16 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chriszeh View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kitw View Post

The fact that Sal was willing to sit down and work with a customer using an iPhone accelerometer app to measure power increases with a non repeatable and very in-exact measurement says that Evolve really cares and does right by people.
this has been my experience so far. he has went out of his way to help with anything i have needed.
1 Sal is great. I had a concern today and emailed got a call in less than 10 mins.
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      08-23-2011, 01:27 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wall$treet View Post
Sorry but if you think a tune needs time to adapt you clearly do not understand a single thing about a modern car. If your level of understanding is this low then nothing anyone says will make sense. It must be similar to reading chinese for me-you must just see symbols on the screen with no understanding of what they are
Saying the car does not adapt is misleading. The car is always searching for the timing limit, flashed or reflashed. The car is always monitoring each cylinder for knock. The limit is impacted by a number of variables, including several which are in play here - cams, altitude, fuel, etc. If you don't realize that, then you are the one that doesn't understand.

It's not uncommon for tunes to need some work at altitude. Cobb, for example, had issues with their initial STi tunes at altitude. But we don't even know what Sal adjusted and you are ready to declare the last 40 years of ECU tuning a fraud.

Your attitude sucks. Try talking to people as if they're standing in front of you.
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      08-23-2011, 01:32 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Given the 10 Deg temps that's very good.

Just to also answer some comments from page 1 - We do not alter the throttle maps AT ALL anymore.

This was only done on demand for some people.

Not a great fan of throttle mapping!
Sal,

What is the difference between 2 tunes you sent to OP? What have you changed since the car remains unchanged?
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      08-23-2011, 08:07 AM   #43
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Quote:
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Sal,

What is the difference between 2 tunes you sent to OP? What have you changed since the car remains unchanged?
Tune for X Pipe was accidently created

VANOS profile especially inlet us vastly different. If used on a car with stock exhaust you lose power.
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      08-23-2011, 08:11 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wall$treet View Post
Using this logic you are then saying a stock tune you have had for 20k miles needs to adapt. Of course it is constantly adapting and that is my point. The "tune" gives it parameters to adapt. By putting in a tune you are instantly changing parameters and the ecu will continue to adapt as the stock ecu does, within a new set of parameters. No need to have it adapt for 50-100 miles. Not even close as there is no reason. If people feel better by driving 100 miles first than that is fine by me.

The problem is people chime in and refute something but actually know nothing and misleads so many people.

Adaption is real and always has been.

What you are talking about is short term adaption. Long term adaptive values have a profound effect on variables such as fuel and ignition.

Sometimes it does take a few miles for the new ignition targets to be reached.

When we are developing we reset all adaptions. Sometimes if we have a car which has very negative long terms adaptions for knock nothing will happen with a tune for quite some time.

There will be cases where some cars gain more power than others with the same tune. It's all down to adaptive values and what's stored in the ECU rather than the short term instant processing you refer to.

If you'd like to confirm any of the above just get a decent scan tool and look into the very large adaption section of the MSS60. Much head scratching will follow.....
Sal@Evolve is offline  
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