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      08-20-2011, 11:03 PM   #45
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Carbon Fiber roof or bust...it sets it off. I found an e92 just how I wanted and it had a sunroof....I walked. But it's your call if you like it go for it!!!
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      08-21-2011, 12:03 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenGuy View Post
Hey gents - I've found a 2010 M3 with pretty much everything I'm looking for, except that it has a sunroof. Would this be a dealbreaker for you guys? Also, a lot of posts talk about how it degrades performance; how much would it actually effect the numbers such as 0-60, 1/4 mile, etc?

Thanks...
Actually the sunroof is something that is a must-have for me with the M3. The sunroof makes the car noticably quiter (I've tested them back to back and it's actually significant at highway speeds) also the sunroof adds a lot of light to the interior which makes it looks much much better in my oppinion. I originally wanted the carbon roof but decided on getting the sunroof because the ambient light and noise differences were too great.

I think most people would consider your question ridiculous to be honest. While BMW advertises the carbon roof as an important feature, it's just marketing speak.

I actually worked designing supercars and one of the projects I was specifically tasked with was balancing, features vs weight. The difference the carbon roof makes for performance is a TOTAL JOKE

In terms of acceleration, the difference would be... wait for it... two tenths of 1 percent. *

In fact the difference is so small that a change in elevation of just 50 feet** would wipe out the gains that the carbon roof has.

It's worthless but it's pretty. Personally I'm just having my sunroofed car's roof redone in carbon fiber.

Edit: *assuming no wheel spin or air resistance **at sea level, at normal temperature, humidity and pressure
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Last edited by Legion5; 08-21-2011 at 12:49 AM.
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      08-21-2011, 12:07 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legion5 View Post
Actually the sunroof is something that is a must-have for me with the M3. The sunroof makes the car noticably quiter and better for long drives for me.

I think most people would consider your question ridiculous. While BMW advertises the carbon roof as an important feature, it's just marketing speak.

I actually worked designing supercars and one of the projects I was specifically tasked with is balancing, features vs weight. In any realistic sense the difference the carbon roof makes in performance is a TOTAL JOKE

In terms of acceleration, the difference would be... wait for it... two tenths of 1 percent.

In fact the difference is so small that a change in elevation of just 50 feet would wipe out the gains that the carbon roof has.

Yeah. Worthless.
Wow! Even though I generally disagree with every post you make, with your constant ramblings of personal experience and baseless factual claims; I actually concur with you on this one Legion!
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Use the stick like u would a manual. If that doesn't work, put it in D mode and put both hands at 10 and 2. If that doesn't work, just sit on your right hand.
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      08-21-2011, 12:13 AM   #48
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Light color:

CF > Sunroof

Dark color:

Sunroof > CF
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      08-21-2011, 12:14 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahmood07 View Post
Light color:

CF > Sunroof

Dark color:

Sunroof > CF
+1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ES_TRADER
Use the stick like u would a manual. If that doesn't work, put it in D mode and put both hands at 10 and 2. If that doesn't work, just sit on your right hand.
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      08-21-2011, 12:15 AM   #50
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I have a e90 M3 and no sunroof. If you want to see the sun get a Vert.
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      08-21-2011, 01:42 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totti View Post
Wow! Even though I generally disagree with every post you make, with your constant ramblings of personal experience and baseless factual claims; I actually concur with you on this one Legion!

The words baseless factual claim are a nonsensical oxymoron.

You have a problem, Totti. When someone posts facts that disagree with your viewpoint you have a problem with the facts. You get angry at them, and angry at the person who posted them. Those are telltale signs of someone who is not only very biased but is willfully ignorant.

Look, I do more research than the vast majority of people on these cars. I then try to post reasonable conclusions from my extensive research. You're free to reach your own conclusions. In fact I welcome different conclusions because there are plenty of sides to a story.

The first time you replied to me you blew up about how I'm completely wrong that the M3 looks better in lighter colors. The simple truth is I posted that fundamental well established art principles agreed that the M3 looked best in light colors, and I mentioned that out of several dozen talks with M3 salespeople even without solicitation they said lighter colors looked better and never said darker colors looked better. I then drew the conclusion that lighter colors look better. All of that is very reasonable and you are very unreasonable to have the problems with me that you do.

That's all I have to say to this.
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      08-21-2011, 02:38 AM   #52
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IMO it all depends on the color of the car. I ordered a sunroof because I ordered mine jet black and the carbon fiber roof doesn't contrast enough to tell the difference. Also, I don't have the driving acumen to be able to drive the car to its full potential, so the weight difference is negligible.
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      08-22-2011, 12:46 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legion5 View Post
Actually the sunroof is something that is a must-have for me with the M3. The sunroof makes the car noticably quiter (I've tested them back to back and it's actually significant at highway speeds) also the sunroof adds a lot of light to the interior which makes it looks much much better in my oppinion. I originally wanted the carbon roof but decided on getting the sunroof because the ambient light and noise differences were too great.

I think most people would consider your question ridiculous to be honest. While BMW advertises the carbon roof as an important feature, it's just marketing speak.

I actually worked designing supercars and one of the projects I was specifically tasked with was balancing, features vs weight. The difference the carbon roof makes for performance is a TOTAL JOKE

In terms of acceleration, the difference would be... wait for it... two tenths of 1 percent. *

In fact the difference is so small that a change in elevation of just 50 feet** would wipe out the gains that the carbon roof has.

It's worthless but it's pretty. Personally I'm just having my sunroofed car's roof redone in carbon fiber.

Edit: *assuming no wheel spin or air resistance **at sea level, at normal temperature, humidity and pressure

Some interesting info there, thanks for posting. I had searched through some old threads and found numbers ranging from .2 to .4 secs slower for the sunroof equipped models, so it had me concerned.
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      08-22-2011, 01:07 PM   #54
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I have to say it would be a dealbreaker for me...just the other way around! In fact, when I ordered mine, the dealer left off the sunroof and had to reorder the car. Luckily, I caught it about a week into order and they were able to get it reordered and it arrived just a couple days later thasn originally estimated.
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      08-22-2011, 01:08 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenGuy View Post
Some interesting info there, thanks for posting. I had searched through some old threads and found numbers ranging from .2 to .4 secs slower for the sunroof equipped models, so it had me concerned.
.4 seconds? Haha that is a joke. so If I weigh 155 and you weigh 195 you're basically in a convertible?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ES_TRADER
Use the stick like u would a manual. If that doesn't work, put it in D mode and put both hands at 10 and 2. If that doesn't work, just sit on your right hand.
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      08-22-2011, 01:13 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenGuy View Post
Some interesting info there, thanks for posting. I had searched through some old threads and found numbers ranging from .2 to .4 secs slower for the sunroof equipped models, so it had me concerned.
Whether what Legion5 says is true or not, the issue to me is not acceleration. Who cares if it makes any difference. The difference, if there is one, is the benefit of a lower center of gravity. I had read somewhere that it lowered the center of gravity by a few centimetres (or something thereabouts). Similar to the benefit of a ZCP lowered car. Does the lowered center of gravity matter... ??

I think either way you will be happy as long as you get what you like. I would not get the CF roof for performance gains. I like the CF roof because it is an M3 specific thing and, to me, makes the car a little more special and different. I get more comments and questions on the CF roof than anything else (other than my wheels).

Also, I do NOT believe there is an appreciable increase in road noise with the CF roof. A colleague has a sunroof in his e90 and his car is no quieter on the road than mine. Not saying that Legion5 is wrong, necessarily, just that I did not have the same experience as he did. If the CF roof is louder than it is only marginally so. Anyway, I actually find my coupe with the CF is VERY quiet on the highway... maybe too quiet sometimes
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Last edited by gthal; 08-22-2011 at 07:26 PM.
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      08-22-2011, 01:17 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legion5 View Post
The words baseless factual claim are a nonsensical oxymoron.

You have a problem, Totti. When someone posts facts that disagree with your viewpoint you have a problem with the facts. You get angry at them, and angry at the person who posted them. Those are telltale signs of someone who is not only very biased but is willfully ignorant.

Look, I do more research than the vast majority of people on these cars. I then try to post reasonable conclusions from my extensive research. You're free to reach your own conclusions. In fact I welcome different conclusions because there are plenty of sides to a story.

The first time you replied to me you blew up about how I'm completely wrong that the M3 looks better in lighter colors. The simple truth is I posted that fundamental well established art principles agreed that the M3 looked best in light colors, and I mentioned that out of several dozen talks with M3 salespeople even without solicitation they said lighter colors looked better and never said darker colors looked better. I then drew the conclusion that lighter colors look better. All of that is very reasonable and you are very unreasonable to have the problems with me that you do.

That's all I have to say to this.
Legion, I think Totti's issue (and others) is that you present "facts" when they are often really just your opinion. You also are a self proclaimed expert on everything and now you design supercars to boot! So you are a professional photographer who is an expert on color that designs supercars with weight and balance in mind. You can see why many are skeptical

It isn't as though your comments aren't useful but they aren't always the "facts" you want others to think they are. You also sometimes tend to have very bold claims like having polled "dozens" of SA's on light vs dark M3s. We all know that is a load of hooey Anyway, I think Totti's issue isn't you or what you are saying, it is how you are passing off opinion as fact and holding yourself out to be more of an "expert" than anyone else here.
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      08-22-2011, 01:18 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totti View Post
.4 seconds? Haha that is a joke. so If I weigh 155 and you weigh 195 you're basically in a convertible?
Crap... that means for me it's like I'm driving an X5M... I've got to lose a few pounds
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      08-22-2011, 02:22 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
Legion, I think Totti's issue (and others) is that you present "facts" when they are often really just your opinion. You also are a self proclaimed expert on everything and now you design supercars to boot! So you are a professional photographer who is an expert on color that designs supercars with weight and balance in mind. You can see why many are skeptical

It isn't as though your comments aren't useful but they aren't always the "facts" you want others to think they are. You also sometimes tend to have very bold claims like having polled "dozens" of SA's on light vs dark M3s. We all know that is a load of hooey Anyway, I think Totti's issue isn't you or what you are saying, it is how you are passing off opinion as fact and holding yourself out to be more of an "expert" than anyone else here.

I don't know what's going on here, but this post had me lol
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      08-22-2011, 02:33 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Smokey View Post
I don't know what's going on here, but this post had me lol
Glad I can be of some entertainment value.

I was actually trying to be somewhat politically correct and not too offensive in the post (with a tad of sarcasm on the side) but get across some of what I think is the frustration a few people feel over a couple of different thread topics lately. Anyway, don't want to de-rail the thread for the OP.
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      08-22-2011, 02:56 PM   #61
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I ordered my car with a sunroof for 2 reasons:

- You can hear more of the engine sound with the sunroof open (convertible even more so but didn't want to spend the extra money for an additional 400 lbs and a chopped-up roof)

- I didn't like the way CF looked with Le Mans Blue.
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      08-22-2011, 03:21 PM   #62
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it's only a deal breaker if YOU think so...
Agreed!


Who cares what a bunch of strangers think? Do what YOU want!
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      08-22-2011, 04:11 PM   #63
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I have Sunroof and it's legit. Def not a dealbreaker for me. I couldn't care less one way or the other.
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      08-22-2011, 04:33 PM   #64
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I've tried both and honestly choosing one over the other is only a cosmetic issue. Personally i like to have the option of opening the roof on a car of that price. and the sunroof is quieter than the carbon roof at highway speeds, I would choose the sunroof. You will never notice a performance difference.
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      08-22-2011, 05:39 PM   #65
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I think in the used car market you have to give a little to find the best car. If everything else is perfect, then go with the sunroof and get the rest of the roof wrapped (there is an IB e92 on this forum where this was done although he may have switched since he mods monthly).
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      08-22-2011, 05:55 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Are you going to track your car? That's the only place the CF roof would make a difference.
I agree, but not because of the weight. How much do you weigh? The difference is what, 46 lbs?

But there's a huge difference in terms of helmet room. I'm about 5'9" and my helmet bumps against the sun roof frame. If I had it to do over I'd have looked for carbon fiber.

I also find I use the sun roof less than I did on my previous 3 series sedan. I think with the coupe the wind is less noisy and more comfortable with large side windows down (and sunroof closed for shade). On the sedan, though, loved the sunroof.
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