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      04-24-2007, 01:11 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by posterchild336 View Post
i thought it was an option, I thought I saw it in as an option that was 3000 pounds(money wise) extra
You are correct. It is an option.
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      04-24-2007, 01:17 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by SteveRa View Post
[DSG] Comes standard. Also in the package - pink Channel rims, aggressive Anna Kournikova stopwatch and tasteful pedicure.
Haha. Are you seriously implying that DSG is for 'women?'

I sense that you prefer MT, but no need to call the others' women... haha. I personally haven't decided. The fun factor of MT is a real consideration. But I wouldn't take it that far. I'm sure you use other technology to assist in your daily life. At this point, it is impossible that you don't. Unless you build a fire to cook your food, wash your clothes in a nearby river, and do math by hand, then you have succumbed to technology in every other aspect of your life. Why resist DSG?

Just my take. MT is fun tho...
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      04-24-2007, 09:45 AM   #69
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I've never driven an SMG before but I'd like to try... see what its like compared to a manual...
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      04-24-2007, 01:28 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chitown08 View Post
Haha. Are you seriously implying that DSG is for 'women?'

I sense that you prefer MT, but no need to call the others' women... haha. I personally haven't decided. The fun factor of MT is a real consideration. But I wouldn't take it that far. I'm sure you use other technology to assist in your daily life. At this point, it is impossible that you don't. Unless you build a fire to cook your food, wash your clothes in a nearby river, and do math by hand, then you have succumbed to technology in every other aspect of your life. Why resist DSG?

Just my take. MT is fun tho...
nicely put...
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      04-24-2007, 02:18 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by juzef View Post
I've been riled up about getting an M3 for years. I've still got a year and a half to reflect since that's when my lease is up (06 330i). I wonder if I'll go through with it. I know there's other sources of fun in this world. Why am I fixated on getting an M3? Something to ponder about till my lease is up.

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I agree completely. I have a few years to go before buying this thing becomes a possibility for me. The fact that I already read this forum to keep up with news clearly demonstrates that I'm riled up as well. haha. I often wonder whether or not I will actually buy this car when the time comes. My parents never spent more than $20k on a car. But there is just something that is so fun about driving a nice car. For me, I think it is the g forces created during hard acceleration or cornering. Its like a roller coaster that you control. I guess you just have to put a price tag on that feeling. Hopefully the MSRP will be justifiable and that the car will deliver the rush you hope it will.

There are alotttt of other things you could do with that amount of money tho...

Back on topic. If DSG diminishes the amount of fun, then following this logic, it would defeat the purpose of buying the car in the first place. You'd end up spending all that money for a car that does not deliver the fun you hoped for. Then you will regret your purchase. I will reserve judgment until I test drive both.

I personally don't care which is 0.2 sec faster, MT or DSG. I will pick the one that is the most fun to drive. If the DSG's 0.2 sec advantage causes it to be more fun, then it will be DSG. If not, manual for me.
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      04-24-2007, 03:14 PM   #72
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Paddles on Ferrari Enzo and still looks like playing PS3.

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      04-25-2007, 01:51 AM   #73
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Good points also. Always a pleasure to discuss and debate with you as well!

On your point of mutual exclusivity: Clearly they are not mutually exclusive but they do in many ways interfere with each other. Humans have a limited capacity for multi-tasking. Just as a thought experiment no one could control two cars at the same time on a track, could they (of course assuming one could be in two places at the same time first...)? It just takes too much mental and physical "bandwidth". Given this limitation we all have why not clear as much bandwidth as possible to make more room for those things a mechanism and computer can not do? Sure there are amazing drivers who seem to easily drive perfectly and control a MT. I guess I would argue they could realize an even higer potential with an automated manual. That is why they are used in F1!

Performance wise I think most of us agree that DCT will be the clear winner. It is just so puzzling then why in such a performance oriented car folks are so stuck on the MT idea. Many of those obsessed with every 1/10th second of 0-60 or 1/4mi still seem insistent on rowing thier own gears. This is such a clear contradiction. It is a very interesting debate with informed and uninformed, emotional and scientific thinkers on both sides. In the end 99% of folks will really enjoy their choice and that is what is most important.
Which one I would choose depends on what type of driving I am doing. In the daily stop and go traffic I think everyone wants no third pedal. In normal driving I am happy to drive manual for the extra mechanical feel and involvement in otherwise mundane driving. In backroads driving I still like to row my own gears, since it makes the whole experience more challenging plus offers more mechanical involvement. On the track (where I compete in time trials), every last 0.1 counts, so I would take the SMG/DSG, etc to give me the competitive advantage.

So the solution is for someone to invent a system where you have a third pedal and gear lever to shift when you want, but when you don't push a button to switch to paddle-shifting DSG.

Perfect!
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      04-25-2007, 02:17 AM   #74
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that is a good solution. i'd pay the extra money for the parallel second tranny. but i'm betting the weight penalty would be significant.
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      04-25-2007, 05:11 PM   #75
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according to this source posted before: the SMG will not cost extra...however DSG is another story..

http://www.leftlanenews.com/2007-bmw...ng-leaked.html

--------
hmm just noticed the date on the comments...looks like the M is gonna cost ya hah

Last edited by FifthStreetz; 04-25-2007 at 05:30 PM.
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      04-27-2007, 11:30 PM   #76
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Isn't it interesting how we can act like children when it comes to cars, even worse, transmission choices. Does it somehow prove how intelligent we are. Why are we trying to sell our preference to someone else? What is the pay off? I am not aware of a commission. Responding to this proves I need more diversity in my life. Though it's great entertainment for neurotics.
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      04-28-2007, 03:23 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by ruff View Post
Isn't it interesting how we can act like children when it comes to cars, even worse, transmission choices. Does it somehow prove how intelligent we are. Why are we trying to sell our preference to someone else? What is the pay off? I am not aware of a commission. Responding to this proves I need more diversity in my life. Though it's great entertainment for neurotics.
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      04-28-2007, 02:46 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by ruff View Post
Isn't it interesting how we can act like children when it comes to cars, even worse, transmission choices. Does it somehow prove how intelligent we are. Why are we trying to sell our preference to someone else? What is the pay off? I am not aware of a commission. Responding to this proves I need more diversity in my life. Though it's great entertainment for neurotics.
Don't rain on our debate.

You like MT.

I like to hear people's opinions before I make mine.

I argued in this thread and I don't even have a preference. It's simply humorous to me, the resistance of MT lovers to adopt DSG, even tho they adopt technology in every other facet of their daily lives. Nobody would opt for a BMW 8track over cd/mp3 stereo.... IT'S INFERIOR!

If you read this thread, there was not much selling of a preference, but rather debate surrounding the inconsistency of the MT loyalist philosophy.
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      04-28-2007, 05:27 PM   #79
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Isn't it interesting how we can act like children when it comes to cars, even worse, transmission choices. Does it somehow prove how intelligent we are. Why are we trying to sell our preference to someone else? What is the pay off? I am not aware of a commission. Responding to this proves I need more diversity in my life. Though it's great entertainment for neurotics.


actually, i get paid a commission.
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      04-28-2007, 05:46 PM   #80
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actually, i get paid a commission.
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      04-28-2007, 09:30 PM   #81
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Don't rain on our debate.

You like MT.

I like to hear people's opinions before I make mine.

I argued in this thread and I don't even have a preference. It's simply humorous to me, the resistance of MT lovers to adopt DSG, even tho they adopt technology in every other facet of their daily lives. Nobody would opt for a BMW 8track over cd/mp3 stereo.... IT'S INFERIOR!

If you read this thread, there was not much selling of a preference, but rather debate surrounding the inconsistency of the MT loyalist philosophy.
I appreciate your response. You make good points. I am not trying to rain on anybody's debate. I like debate. I just think it's comical that people try to convince others of whats best for them rather than just provide good information - It's a car not a religion. This thread has been very informative. I have learned a lot of good information from you and others. That's why I read it. I know in the U.S., 0-60 seems to mean everything. It is important, but if that is what is most important, a Vette for similar money, would be the smartest choice by a land slide, especially the Z06. It's a no brainer. Sadly the overweight E92 M3 will get obliterated by the old Z06 on the drag strip and the track. Yes it is an MT and so is the GT3. You're right, I like MTs. Maybe I am old fashion. I wouldn't own a cell phone if you gave me one and paid the bill. Technology has greatly improved our standard of living, but doesn't always make me happier. By the way, I am probably 50 50 on whether or not I would get DSG. Keep the great information coming.
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      04-28-2007, 10:10 PM   #82
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I appreciate your response. You make good points. I am not trying to rain on anybody's debate. I like debate. I just think it's comical that people try to convince others of whats best for them rather than just provide good information - It's a car not a religion. This thread has been very informative. I have learned a lot of good information from you and others. That's why I read it. I know in the U.S., 0-60 seems to mean everything. It is important, but if that is what is most important, a Vette for similar money, would be the smartest choice by a land slide, especially the Z06. It's a no brainer. Sadly the overweight E92 M3 will get obliterated by the old Z06 on the drag strip and the track. Yes it is an MT and so is the GT3. You're right, I like MTs. Maybe I am old fashion. I wouldn't own a cell phone if you gave me one and paid the bill. Technology has greatly improved our standard of living, but doesn't always make me happier. By the way, I am probably 50 50 on whether or not I would get DSG. Keep the great information coming.
All good points.
Convincing others what they should like is pointless, agreed.

Cmon, if I bought you a cell phone, you still wouldn't use it??... But they're so handy, and useful in emergencies, and no real cons to offset all the pros. Gotta adopt that technology...

Technology does not make us happier. That is what I have argued throughout. The fatal flaw in my DSG adoption argument is that by adopting DSG, it is possible that your happiness actually decreases. When you adopt other technology such as a calculator, a toaster, a washing machine, or an oven, your happiness is not diminished in any way. This is a fundamental difference. Nobody misses doing math by hand, washing clothes in a river, or making a fire to cook food. (well i like fire, but i digress). However, it is clear that ppl will miss rowing gears...

The "you adopt every other technology, why not DSG?" argument is definitely trumphed by the happiness argument. period.

But in one of my posts, I argued whether or not rowing gears actually makes you happy. Or if it is a fake sense of happiness that you will not care about on your death bed - A pointless challenge that provides temporary feelings of accomplishment when done well. Who knows. Its open to interpretation.

Still, if MT provides any marginal satisfaction, even if miniscule, why not do it... I'm undecided as you are.
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      04-28-2007, 10:45 PM   #83
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All good points.
Convincing others what they should like is pointless, agreed.

Cmon, if I bought you a cell phone, you still wouldn't use it??... But they're so handy, and useful in emergencies, and no real cons to offset all the pros. Gotta adopt that technology...

You make great points all of them. I still wouldn't want a cell phone even if you bought me one. Why do I want to be bothered by a call. It can wait 99% of the time. I don't even answer the phone at home. Our society seemed to do just fine through the ages when no one had a cell phones

Technology does not make us happier. That is what I have argued throughout. The fatal flaw in my DSG adoption argument is that by adopting DSG, it is possible that your happiness actually decreases. When you adopt other technology such as a calculator, a toaster, a washing machine, or an oven, your happiness is not diminished in any way. This is a fundamental difference. Nobody misses doing math by hand, washing clothes in a river, or making a fire to cook food. (well i like fire, but i digress). However, it is clear that ppl will miss rowing gears...

The "you adopt every other technology, why not DSG?" argument is definitely trumphed by the happiness argument. period.

But in one of my posts, I argued whether or not rowing gears actually makes you happy. Or if it is a fake sense of happiness that you will not care about on your death bed - A pointless challenge that provides temporary feelings of accomplishment when done well. Who knows. Its open to interpretation.

Still, if MT provides any marginal satisfaction, even if miniscule, why not do it... I'm undecided as you are.


Odd things bring me satisfaction, such as doing a triatholon and racing (pedal)road bikes. So rowing gears is a nice work out in it's own right.
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      04-28-2007, 10:51 PM   #84
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All good points.
Convincing others what they should like is pointless, agreed.

Cmon, if I bought you a cell phone, you still wouldn't use it??... But they're so handy, and useful in emergencies, and no real cons to offset all the pros. Gotta adopt that technology...

Technology does not make us happier. That is what I have argued throughout. The fatal flaw in my DSG adoption argument is that by adopting DSG, it is possible that your happiness actually decreases. When you adopt other technology such as a calculator, a toaster, a washing machine, or an oven, your happiness is not diminished in any way. This is a fundamental difference. Nobody misses doing math by hand, washing clothes in a river, or making a fire to cook food. (well i like fire, but i digress). However, it is clear that ppl will miss rowing gears...

The "you adopt every other technology, why not DSG?" argument is definitely trumphed by the happiness argument. period.

But in one of my posts, I argued whether or not rowing gears actually makes you happy. Or if it is a fake sense of happiness that you will not care about on your death bed - A pointless challenge that provides temporary feelings of accomplishment when done well. Who knows. Its open to interpretation.

Still, if MT provides any marginal satisfaction, even if miniscule, why not do it... I'm undecided as you are.
As You can see I messed up the quote. I am not computer literate enough to figure out how to do the quotes the right way.
I was trying to say: You make great points all of them. I still wouldn't want a cell phone even if you bought me one. Why do I want to be bothered by a call. It can wait 99% of the time. I don't even answer the phone at home. Our society seemed to do just fine through the ages when no one had a cell phones
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      04-29-2007, 12:28 AM   #85
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As You can see I messed up the quote. I am not computer literate enough to figure out how to do the quotes the right way.
I was trying to say: You make great points all of them. I still wouldn't want a cell phone even if you bought me one. Why do I want to be bothered by a call. It can wait 99% of the time. I don't even answer the phone at home. Our society seemed to do just fine through the ages when no one had a cell phones
Haha, thats what my dad says. (even he finally got one recently) That is only one side however. And you can ignore your cell phone just like your home phone. (The button is even explicitly labeled "ignore")
On the other hand, you can make calls whenever, wherever. (emergencies) Basically, the cell phone can do everything the home phone can do, and some. At least keep one in the glovebox so that when you crash your M3 you can call for help...

I doubt I will ever have a landline.
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      04-29-2007, 12:30 PM   #86
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My situation is different than most. I plan on keeping the car forever. Can't stomach the depreciation hit of almost 50% of the cars worth by the end of warranty. Although an out an out of warranty M3 is going to be insanely expensive, it won't be anything like the depreciation. One concern about DSG I mentioned earlier is reliability and cost of repair. Another concern n is that If I buy an early DSG car it will be a test mule for BMW and secondly in 10 years they will most likely have improved it substantially. With an MT car I know they have perfected it for past 50 years and there really isn't room for improvement. Once the DSG comes out, I will be looking to see if it is standard or an option, how much if an option. What the mpg difference between the two transmissions and how much faster is the DSG car particularly in the quarter mile. Finally I will be looking at reviews of both transmissions and finding out how smooth the DSG is in automatic mode. The SMG really suffered in this area. I am almost certain I won't be be given the opportunity to test drive both transmissions, which may be the most important thing of all.
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      04-29-2007, 03:19 PM   #87
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...One concern about DSG I mentioned earlier is reliability and cost of repair. Another concern n is that If I buy an early DSG car it will be a test mule for BMW and secondly in 10 years they will most likely have improved it substantially. With an MT car I know they have perfected it for past 50 years and there really isn't room for improvement. ...
Don't forget about software! Most of the difference between a MT and automated manual is simply software! Rev matching, how good the automatic mode is, etc., etc. are all greatly influenced by the quality of the software. Although not done often, don't forget that the software can be upgraded as well, both by BMW and by the aftermarket. With MT you simply have to upgrade the bio-computer: your skills.
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      04-29-2007, 10:33 PM   #88
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With an MT car I know they have perfected it for past 50 years and there really isn't room for improvement.
Well, you'd think so, but I'm not all that impressed with the shift quality on my MT E46 M3. An ACS short shifter and CDV deletion helped, but I've felt much slicker transmissions before. Pretty notchy and easy to hit wrong gear if you're in a hurry--and I've been driving Mts for 43 years.
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