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      04-22-2007, 06:09 PM   #45
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Continued

Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
You make some good points in you "real but false" statement. But following you argument it seems that having a manual transmission and enjoying the "essence" of driving (speed, line, braking, traction....) are mutually exclusive. That's not the case. Call me oldstyle but for decades people drove cars with manuals and did also enjoy all the points you made. I fully agree with you that having a DCT or SMG makes it easier for the driver to focus on the other points...but there are people (not meaning myself) who can combine all that points and are able to "handle" a manual transmission in a perfect way at the same time. So all in all I can't follow your "verdict" that a manual is a real but false driver envolvement, as I already said it doesn't make it easier (especially combined with all the points you stated), but that's also the charm of having a manual...With a sequential gearbox everybody can make a quick shift but if you make a good quick UP- or DOWN-shift with a manual, you can be somewhat proud of yourself...

Best regards and to each their own,
southlight
Good points also. Always a pleasure to discuss and debate with you as well!

On your point of mutual exclusivity: Clearly they are not mutually exclusive but they do in many ways interfere with each other. Humans have a limited capacity for multi-tasking. Just as a thought experiment no one could control two cars at the same time on a track, could they (of course assuming one could be in two places at the same time first...)? It just takes too much mental and physical "bandwidth". Given this limitation we all have why not clear as much bandwidth as possible to make more room for those things a mechanism and computer can not do? Sure there are amazing drivers who seem to easily drive perfectly and control a MT. I guess I would argue they could realize an even higer potential with an automated manual. That is why they are used in F1!

Performance wise I think most of us agree that DCT will be the clear winner. It is just so puzzling then why in such a performance oriented car folks are so stuck on the MT idea. Many of those obsessed with every 1/10th second of 0-60 or 1/4mi still seem insistent on rowing thier own gears. This is such a clear contradiction. It is a very interesting debate with informed and uninformed, emotional and scientific thinkers on both sides. In the end 99% of folks will really enjoy their choice and that is what is most important.
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      04-22-2007, 06:45 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Performance wise I think most of us agree that DCT will be the clear winner. It is just so puzzling then why in such a performance oriented car folks are so stuck on the MT idea. Many of those obsessed with every 1/10th second of 0-60 or 1/4mi still seem insistent on rowing thier own gears. This is such a clear contradiction. It is a very interesting debate with informed and uninformed, emotional and scientific thinkers on both sides. In the end 99% of folks will really enjoy their choice and that is what is most important.
Exactly, everyone will enjoy their choice, so don't chastise the folks that love extreme performance and opt for manual.
I can sign off right now that I won't be able to shift in 4ms or whatever it ends up being, but damnit, I will feel like the king of the world rowing those gears.
I have modded my Maxima to the available limit, bolt-ons, because I want go as fast as possible, and I rock an auto. Just didn't get the 6-speed.
Being performance oriented isn't just about utlizing a tranny that shifts ms faster.
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      04-22-2007, 06:54 PM   #47
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Chastise

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Originally Posted by Epacy View Post
Exactly, everyone will enjoy their choice, so don't chastise the folks that love extreme performance and opt for manual.
I can sign off right now that I won't be able to shift in 4ms or whatever it ends up being, but damnit, I will feel like the king of the world rowing those gears.
I have modded my Maxima to the available limit, bolt-ons, because I want go as fast as possible, and I rock an auto. Just didn't get the 6-speed.
Being performance oriented isn't just about utlizing a tranny that shifts ms faster.
I didn't really "chastise" these folks. I only pointed out that most of them are behaving in a very contradictory fasion with reagrds to ultimate performance.
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      04-22-2007, 07:41 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I didn't really "chastise" these folks. I only pointed out that most of them are behaving in a very contradictory fasion with reagrds to ultimate performance.
i have to agree with this comment. most of the comments left in support of the manual transmission have left me scratching my temple in confusion. at the end of the day, if you want to sacrifice performance in the name of rowing your own gears, more power to you. but of course the trade of is just that: a substantial sacrifice of performance.
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      04-22-2007, 08:06 PM   #49
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a substantial sacrifice of performance.
?? Your definition of substantial is under review.
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      04-22-2007, 08:59 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epacy View Post
?? Your definition of substantial is under review.
my definition of substantial is the real one. my friend webster agrees. for your viewing ease i'll post it here:

1 a : consisting of or relating to substance b : not imaginary or illusory : REAL, TRUE c : IMPORTANT, ESSENTIAL
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      04-22-2007, 09:05 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
my definition of substantial is the real one. my friend webster agrees. for your viewing ease i'll post it here:

1 a : consisting of or relating to substance b : not imaginary or illusory : REAL, TRUE c : IMPORTANT, ESSENTIAL
Think again. You are overstating.
Too bad your friend Webster doesn't acquaint you with grammar.
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      04-22-2007, 09:34 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epacy View Post
Think again. You are overstating.
Too bad your friend Webster doesn't acquaint you with grammar.

epacy, do you have an attitude problem that you'd like to advertise for us? or is it just that you can't handle when your OPINION isn't acknowledged as fact? maybe you should re-familiarize yourself with the general purpose of these forums: to engage in discussion, not to proselytize.

on the subject of definitions though, maybe you need to re-familiarize yourself with the definition of "overstating" given that my last post was a word for word cut and paste of webster dictionary's primary definition of substantial, with no embellishments.

if you have any more childish quips you'd like to offer, feel free to to bombard me in private messages rather than post your banal off-topic rants in a public forum.
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Last edited by esquire; 04-22-2007 at 11:35 PM.
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      04-22-2007, 09:43 PM   #53
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I would say 0.1 sec is substantial when you are comparing performance cars. If a manual shift takes 0.4 sec, and DSG 0.004 sec, you are gaining 0.3996 sec every shift. If that is not 'substantial' I don't know what is?

I agree it seems contradictory for someone who wants a performance car (someone who cares about 0-60,0-100) to also prefer a manual transmission. By choosing a MT, you are basically sacrificing performance/time. A 400hp DSG would be just as fast as a 420hp MT.
Another way to look at it is that a 420hp M3 with DSG will be as fast as another car with 440hp and a MT (assuming same weight,etc).
By choosing DSG, you are basically getting a faster car for your money. Think about it...
This all ignores the 'fun factor' of a MT. If it is more fun to you, then you should def buy it.

I still maintain that the insistence on a manual transmission is a surrogate (artificial) interest/activity. We do not have to hunt for our food, water, basic needs anymore. People need something to strive for and to challenge themselves. Some people strive for endless money, others workout until they become arnold. Neither one will make a person happy, but they do it because they have control over it and it is a challenge (gives a person satisfaction when accomplished, althought temporary). Althought irrational, people want to row their gears because it gives them something to do and something to accomplish/feel satisfied about when they do it well. When computers take over the world, people begin to lose control over things and, as a result, feel bored, detached, powerless, etc.

I contend that you may feel satisfied/accomplished rowing gears perfectly, but it will only be temporary. Soon, someone will blow by you with a DSG... It is then that you will realize how pointless it is to be using an ancient transmission.

I say you make sharp driving the replacement goal and let the DSG mess with shifting. The reason we like MT, is because we are not always on a track, and the MT makes repeated straight-line acceleration more fun (or as some call it, 'involving').

I think the reason the decision is tough is because it gets at the root of humankind's attainment of happiness. If shifting provides happiness, then getting DSG will force you to find other ways to achieve success/happiness. Maybe it is better, focused driving...
Maybe it is another activity all together...
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      04-22-2007, 11:23 PM   #54
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Quote:
I would say 0.1 sec is substantial when you are comparing performance cars. If a manual shift takes 0.4 sec, and DSG 0.004 sec, you are gaining 0.3996 sec every shift. If that is not 'substantial' I don't know what is?...
There are so many things wrong with that statement that it made for a funny interlude for the hunting caveman and pleasure seeking baby boomers. The numbers are wrong, but more importantly, that would be a true statement if shifting was independent of all other factors that impact driving. That could happen if and only if you are in your garage and shift gears with a stopwatch. But then again, you still have to live with yourself and the gentle clicks and soft touches of the paddles. I have to admit, there is a substantial gain associated with DSG but it is limited to estrogen levels and melancholy.
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      04-23-2007, 12:48 AM   #55
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A DSG M3 will come with Gear Paddle Shifters on the steering wheel?
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      04-23-2007, 01:07 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveRa View Post
There are so many things wrong with that statement
Sources are saying 8 milliseconds for DSG... (4 tenths for MT)
So you disagree that 0.392 sec is meaningless?? per shift???

Your car is coasting/decelerating for that entire time, while DSG has already shifted and is ACCELERATING again!!

I'm not a physicist, but the difference between a car decelerating for 0.392 sec (MT) vs. a car accelerating for 0.392 sec (DSG) is undoubtedly 'significant.'

Lets take a car with a 0-60 of 4.5 sec and linear acceleration (which it is not but is easy to demonstrate)
In 0.392 sec, this car has accelerated 5.22 mph. roughly [(60mph/4.5sec)*0.392]
Thats right, in the time you were shifting your MT, the DSG has allowed the other car to increase its speed by 5 mph!!!

Once you have shifted, you will have already lost several feet, and your opponent will be moving at a faster rate than you. (AKA he will continue to distance himself from you, even after you have shifted!!)
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      04-23-2007, 01:26 AM   #57
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great point..thats why i am going with dsg
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      04-23-2007, 06:51 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Good points also. Always a pleasure to discuss and debate with you as well!

On your point of mutual exclusivity: Clearly they are not mutually exclusive but they do in many ways interfere with each other. Humans have a limited capacity for multi-tasking. Just as a thought experiment no one could control two cars at the same time on a track, could they (of course assuming one could be in two places at the same time first...)? It just takes too much mental and physical "bandwidth". Given this limitation we all have why not clear as much bandwidth as possible to make more room for those things a mechanism and computer can not do? Sure there are amazing drivers who seem to easily drive perfectly and control a MT. I guess I would argue they could realize an even higer potential with an automated manual. That is why they are used in F1!

Performance wise I think most of us agree that DCT will be the clear winner. It is just so puzzling then why in such a performance oriented car folks are so stuck on the MT idea. Many of those obsessed with every 1/10th second of 0-60 or 1/4mi still seem insistent on rowing thier own gears. This is such a clear contradiction. It is a very interesting debate with informed and uninformed, emotional and scientific thinkers on both sides. In the end 99% of folks will really enjoy their choice and that is what is most important.
F1 is a good example: M. Schumacher (like him or hate him - not my point) has been able to have the "car" in perfect control aswell as doing manual shifts (if I remember right there hasn't been automated transmissions in F1 at the time schumacher started). Todays DCTs are used in F1 and the result is not that the drivers are reaching a higher potential, the result is that moderate drivers are able to drive such a car. But we're talking 'bout average drivers and for them (yes, You're right) the DCT opens the possibility to reach a higher level. Anyway to me it's real fun to row my gears and one possible explanation may be that I'm not always willing to reach highest levels of driving in the M3. It's a DD and so most of time I'm happy with a 1-second shift; when it's weekend and I'm rushing through an alpine ass I'm also happy with a 0,5 s shift. Finally I'm afraid that the MT's are endangered so I want to get an MT as long as it's still available...Anytime in the future there will only be DCT's and then I will be happy with that...

Best regards, south
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      04-23-2007, 07:50 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
epacy, do you have an attitude problem that you'd like to advertise for us? or is it just that you can't handle when your OPINION isn't acknowledged as fact? maybe you should re-familiarize yourself with the general purpose of these forums: to engage in discussion, not to proselytize.

on the subject of definitions though, maybe you need to re-familiarize yourself with the definition of "overstating" given that my last post was a word for word cut and paste of webster dictionary's primary definition of substantial, with no embellishments.

if you have any more childish quips you'd like to offer, feel free to to bombard me in private messages rather than post your banal off-topic rants in a public forum.
So, you would call your antics "engaging in discussion"?
Again, you are not following. I wasn't referring to your definition as "overstating". It was your comment I was referring to.
Wouldn't your message be deemed a "childish quip" and "off-topic"?
My post about substantial performance was off-topic? What thread are you reading??
Please don't act like you are taking the high-road. You are the one who turned nasty.
What's next?
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      04-23-2007, 07:56 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
my definition of substantial is the real one. my friend webster agrees. for your viewing ease i'll post it here:

1 a : consisting of or relating to substance b : not imaginary or illusory : REAL, TRUE c : IMPORTANT, ESSENTIAL
No doubt the difference is REAL and TRUE. But depending on the driver and the intended use of the car, it may not be IMPORTANT or ESSENTIAL.
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      04-23-2007, 04:15 PM   #61
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Excellent insight

Quote:
Originally Posted by chitown08 View Post
I would say 0.1 sec is substantial when you are comparing performance cars. If a manual shift takes 0.4 sec, and DSG 0.004 sec, you are gaining 0.3996 sec every shift. If that is not 'substantial' I don't know what is?

I agree it seems contradictory for someone who wants a performance car (someone who cares about 0-60,0-100) to also prefer a manual transmission. By choosing a MT, you are basically sacrificing performance/time. A 400hp DSG would be just as fast as a 420hp MT.
Another way to look at it is that a 420hp M3 with DSG will be as fast as another car with 440hp and a MT (assuming same weight,etc).
By choosing DSG, you are basically getting a faster car for your money. Think about it...
This all ignores the 'fun factor' of a MT. If it is more fun to you, then you should def buy it.

I still maintain that the insistence on a manual transmission is a surrogate (artificial) interest/activity. We do not have to hunt for our food, water, basic needs anymore. People need something to strive for and to challenge themselves. Some people strive for endless money, others workout until they become arnold. Neither one will make a person happy, but they do it because they have control over it and it is a challenge (gives a person satisfaction when accomplished, althought temporary). Althought irrational, people want to row their gears because it gives them something to do and something to accomplish/feel satisfied about when they do it well. When computers take over the world, people begin to lose control over things and, as a result, feel bored, detached, powerless, etc.

I contend that you may feel satisfied/accomplished rowing gears perfectly, but it will only be temporary. Soon, someone will blow by you with a DSG... It is then that you will realize how pointless it is to be using an ancient transmission.

I say you make sharp driving the replacement goal and let the DSG mess with shifting. The reason we like MT, is because we are not always on a track, and the MT makes repeated straight-line acceleration more fun (or as some call it, 'involving').

I think the reason the decision is tough is because it gets at the root of humankind's attainment of happiness. If shifting provides happiness, then getting DSG will force you to find other ways to achieve success/happiness. Maybe it is better, focused driving...
Maybe it is another activity all together...
Excellent points all around especially the paragraph, "I still maintain...". You took the thoughts and words right out of my mouth in a way I could not quite state them. We are certainly on the exact same wavelength.
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      04-23-2007, 04:42 PM   #62
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The DSG sounds very interesting...will it be a option for a extra cost or does it come standard?
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      04-23-2007, 05:23 PM   #63
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Comes standard. Also in the package - pink Channel rims, aggressive Anna Kournikova stopwatch and tasteful pedicure.
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      04-23-2007, 05:45 PM   #64
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Comes standard. Also in the package - pink Channel rims, aggressive Anna Kournikova stopwatch and tasteful pedicure.
my girlfriend is gonna be all over that
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      04-23-2007, 09:09 PM   #65
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i thought it was an option, I thought I saw it in as an option that was 3000 pounds(money wise) extra
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      04-24-2007, 01:10 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Excellent points all around especially the paragraph, "I still maintain...". You took the thoughts and words right out of my mouth in a way I could not quite state them. We are certainly on the exact same wavelength.
Gracias. Rowing gears is like doing math by hand. If you're good at it and fast at it, you undoubtedly have skill. But when Excel comes along and does it for you, do you insist upon doing it by hand still? No. That would be ridiculous.
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