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      08-14-2011, 08:31 AM   #23
gthal
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Originally Posted by ThunderMoose View Post
I still think "substantially" is a bit too strong to describe the difference, even if it is a DCT vs MT thing.
True... it is absolutley noticeable but I agree that "substantially" stronger is a bit of an exaggeration.
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      08-14-2011, 08:40 AM   #24
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I think it comes down to two major things.

1. DCT, faster, extra gear but also has the ability to continue to the forward movement while shifting, that feeling makes a significant different. this is probably what you are feeling

2. latest firmware update, I think the later your DCT M3 has been made and updated, the better it is going to perform. DCT is one of the BEST transmissions out there, it just had a few kinks in early production years.
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      08-14-2011, 08:45 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nine View Post
1. DCT, faster, extra gear but also has the ability to continue to the forward movement while shifting, that feeling makes a significant different. this is probably what you are feeling
Exactly, The DCT not only keeps the forward movement but the first few gears are also shorter making it feel more eager to rev. I also just got a 2011 DCT coming from an 08 sedan, it is the gearing and shifting that makes it (feel)faster. Also the difference in noise you might be hearing may be because of the euro air filter.
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      08-14-2011, 09:02 AM   #26
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C&D got the 0-60 numbers "substantially" lower with the 2011 with DCT:

"Recent testing by Car and Driver magazine has shown that the 2011 M3 equipped with an M-DCT transmission accelerated from 0-60 mph in 3.9 seconds and went on to record a 12.4 second quarter mile time.[26] This is almost half a second quicker than 2008-2010 M3 models with the same engine and transmission."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M3

http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezfl...af8a28559a.pdf

I believe it's tweaks to the DCT software that enabled it to go 0.4s faster which by the way is VERY significant. It was C&D's report that sealed the decision on my 2011 m3.

At onelapofamerica.com this year I walked a modified Camaro at the gainsville drag strip.
http://www.youtube.com/4sevens#p/u/60/HqQJCHUebLc
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      08-14-2011, 09:18 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4sevens.com View Post
C&D got the 0-60 numbers "substantially" lower with the 2011 with DCT:

"Recent testing by Car and Driver magazine has shown that the 2011 M3 equipped with an M-DCT transmission accelerated from 0-60 mph in 3.9 seconds and went on to record a 12.4 second quarter mile time.[26] This is almost half a second quicker than 2008-2010 M3 models with the same engine and transmission."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M3

http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezfl...af8a28559a.pdf

I believe it's tweaks to the DCT software that enabled it to go 0.4s faster which by the way is VERY significant. It was C&D's report that sealed the decision on my 2011 m3.

At onelapofamerica.com this year I walked a modified Camaro at the gainsville drag strip.
http://www.youtube.com/4sevens#p/u/60/HqQJCHUebLc
So much for the substantiality posturing

Ok, I'm just tweaking everyone. Hell, I could not tell you the .4 second difference when driving if my life depended on it!

I can tell you my 011 M3 with ZCP feels substantially faster than my X5 Diesel
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      08-14-2011, 09:23 AM   #28
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I can see why bmw would quietly tweak the m3 without releasing new specs. This would anger many early m3 owners. Imagine you spend 75k on a 2010, then 3 months later the 2011's come out with 30 more hp and better specs all around. I for one would be furious. This happens with quite a few brands and models. Look at the difference between a 2008 997 carrera and a 2009. Back in 2005, my buddy bought a brand new bmw 330i sedan with a NA 3.0 liter inline six that produced 225hp and a low torque figure (214lb-ft) then a few months later the twin turbo six appears with 300 hp and 300tq. This infuriated my friend. He wrote several complaints to bmw and was trying to get them to buy the car back from him.
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      08-14-2011, 09:27 AM   #29
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Quote:
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I can see why bmw would quietly tweak the m3 without releasing new specs. This would anger many early m3 owners. Imagine you spend 75k on a 2010, then 3 months later the 2011's come out with 30 more hp and better specs all around. I for one would be furious. This happens with quite a few brands and models. Look at the difference between a 2008 997 carrera and a 2009. Back in 2005, my buddy bought a brand new bmw 330i sedan with a NA 3.0 liter inline six that produced 225hp and a low torque figure (214lb-ft) then a few months later the twin turbo six appears with 300 hp and 300tq. This infuriated my friend. He wrote several complaints to bmw and was trying to get them to buy the car back from him.
The real reason was because the rs4 outdid the m3 in 0-60, so they "refined" the DCT software. Another problem is every 08-10 DCT owner going to the dealership asking for a reflash. LOL I know for a fact that DCT is not so easy to flash as the controller board is mounted to the DCT. (reference esstuning's dct flash service)
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      08-14-2011, 09:32 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
For the "sound" of the engine, I also noticed that it seemed louder. At the first HPDE of the season, my car had a much more distinct intake/exhaust note. One of the flag guys is the head BMW tech for the local dealership. He is convinced that BMW did something to the cars to increase intake/exhaust sound as he has noticed the difference of several M3s. The other M3 guys also commented that my car sounded very different than the other e9x M3s there on the front straight at WOT. I originally thought maybe I had something wrong with the car (maybe a small exhaust leak) but I have now heard others make similar comments on their 2011s so maybe there was a tweak to the sound?
I didn't own the prior years, but I test drove 3 different M3s before ordering mine. The exhaust note on mine sounds louder than the other years, especially when the Sport button is on. Who knows why...
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      08-14-2011, 09:34 AM   #31
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I thought I read somewhere that they did evolve the steering with the competition package

Maybe someone can comment who knows for sure.
I'm not too sure if there is a difference with steering on the ZCP's - but I do know the steering assist varies with speed. Now there is a track mode where assist is minimized for more feedback on the track.

I do know the EDC in the ZCP is different - the dampening is dynamically changed depending on yaw rate and speed. It does this both on comfort setting as well as sport setting - which actually is annoying on track because you can notice it change it's dampening mid-corner.

Here's proof from the guy who contributed to the M's handling:
http://www.m-power.com/_open/b/edito...d=2086&lang=en

I think for street and occasional weekend tracking the dynamic EDC is fine but if you're racing, you don't want the car to get so smart that it changes your setup mid-race. I guess you can get used to it but then it's another thing to think about when you're focusing on driving the car at it's limit.

From what I understand ZCP (competition package) is lowered springs, wider wheels, dynamic edc... anything else?

I did read somewhere that the ZCP did shave some seconds off the nurburgring compared to non zcp. Just the wider rims and lower CG would have done that without the dynamic edc.
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      08-14-2011, 09:49 AM   #32
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DCT feels faster than 6mt to me. Keeping the stock tire sizes makes my M3 feel faster out of the gate than the popular 255/275 upsize to me also.
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      08-14-2011, 12:26 PM   #33
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I would say how you feel is worth the price of admission to the 11 M3.
I have been driving a 911 turbo and compared to my 10 M3 there is a substantial difference too. The price of admission parallels the feeling tho.
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      08-14-2011, 12:28 PM   #34
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If you think C&D is objective then it's not merely about how it feels - whether you feel it's faster or it's the same - the facts show it's faster 0-60. By nearly half a second.
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      08-14-2011, 12:34 PM   #35
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Who cares really? As long as you ENJOY driving the car, that's all that matters. I have a late 2011 with 6MT. I drove and loved the DCT, but wanted a three pedal car for the enjoyment it provides me. There are days I wish I had a DCT, but if I had a DCT, there would be days I wished I had a 6MT. The bottom line is, the car is tremendously fun to drive for me, as is, and would be so with DCT or 6MT, or if it was non-ZCP, or if it was an early '08 model, etc.

If I was racing it in a series, then that's obviously different. But for a daily driver, with track days here and there, really, who cares? It's fun to drive, and no, there isn't more power out of the engine for 2011, just refinements in areas that proved to be problematic in earlier models, and that's that.
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      08-14-2011, 12:36 PM   #36
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Who cares really? As long as you ENJOY driving the car, that's all that matters. I have a late 2011 with 6MT. I drove and loved the DCT, but wanted a three pedal car for the enjoyment it provides me. There are days I wish I had a DCT, but if I had a DCT, there would be days I wished I had a 6MT. The bottom line is, the car is tremendously fun to drive for me, as is, and would be so with DCT or 6MT, or if it was non-ZCP, or if it was an early '08 model, etc.

If I was racing it in a series, then that's obviously different. But for a daily driver, with track days here and there, really, who cares? It's fun to drive, and no, there isn't more power out of the engine for 2011, just refinements in areas that proved to be problematic in earlier models, and that's that.
+1... it's all about having what you enjoy.
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      08-14-2011, 12:42 PM   #37
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Quote:
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+1... it's all about having what you enjoy.
And I agree to that to a certain degree.

That this for an example... You're enjoying your newly purchased 2011 and you're just having a blast, then someone brings up the fact that the M3's arch nemesis the rs4 outperforms your car. That surely lessens your "enjoyment" But then later you find out that the M3 got a little bump in the 0-60 time and outdoes the rs4 just by a time margin, suddenly a smile comes back to your face - especially after talking to a buddy who just recently picked up the rs4 for the fact that it'll outdo the m3.

Enjoyment has various facets and shades. Sometimes it's all in the details that you may or may not even experience first hand...
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      08-14-2011, 12:55 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
I had the exact same impression going from a 2010 6MT to a 2011 DCT. So, not a 2008 to 2011 comparison but a 2010 to 2011 one but with the same impression.

The issue I think is the DCT. Not only does it make the car faster because of shifting, I have read that the gearing has changed. This could also be a big part of what you are feeling... the DCT gearing does, IMO, make the car feel more torquey and fast and revs more quickly but very likely just because of gearing. So, unlike what others might think, I do NOT believe you are experiencing a placebo effect but simply noticing the faster shifting of the DCT (vs 6MT) and the more aggressive gearing (torque to the wheels).

So, the engine is the same but the transmission makes the car feel very different. I would expect that if you compared a 2008 6MT and 2008 DCT you would have the same/similar impression.

On the handling/ZCP issue, it is hard to say if I notice any real difference... maybe slightly but only very slightly if at all. What you might be feeling is the stiffness of a new suspension versus a 3 year old suspension IMO.

For the "sound" of the engine, I also noticed that it seemed louder. At the first HPDE of the season, my car had a much more distinct intake/exhaust note. One of the flag guys is the head BMW tech for the local dealership. He is convinced that BMW did something to the cars to increase intake/exhaust sound as he has noticed the difference of several M3s. The other M3 guys also commented that my car sounded very different than the other e9x M3s there on the front straight at WOT. I originally thought maybe I had something wrong with the car (maybe a small exhaust leak) but I have now heard others make similar comments on their 2011s so maybe there was a tweak to the sound?
I turned in my 2009 e90 DCT for a 2011 6sp e90. The exhaust sound is definitely louder in the 2011. There is no difference in power, though I'm sure the DCT is slightly quicker in a straight line.

My Dinan suspension and Dinan alignment specs made much more of a difference than the comp package would have. Alignment and tire pressures are going to make more difference than anything else.
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      08-14-2011, 01:06 PM   #39
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I'm trading in my 2010 E90 DCT in 6 weeks time for a 2011 E90 DCT -this will be one of the last E90's to be produced as i believe production ends in October - so in effect i am swapping exactly like for like. If my 2011 feels any different i will post up!
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      08-14-2011, 02:21 PM   #40
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You think the 2011s are fast?
Wait till you see the 2012s!
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      08-14-2011, 02:49 PM   #41
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Quote:
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I'm trading in my 2010 E90 DCT in 6 weeks time for a 2011 E90 DCT -this will be one of the last E90's to be produced as i believe production ends in October - so in effect i am swapping exactly like for like. If my 2011 feels any different i will post up!
Just curious, why the swap?
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      08-14-2011, 03:34 PM   #42
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I wonder why there are no plublishes nurburgring times for a competition packed m3.
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      08-14-2011, 03:40 PM   #43
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You could attribute the "eagerness" to the shorter final drive in the DCT
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      08-14-2011, 03:51 PM   #44
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Enjoyment has various facets and shades. Sometimes it's all in the details that you may or may not even experience first hand...
Honestly, I'd say to each his own on that subject. But my opinion is that if you're (not you, but "you" as in anyone) buying the car simply for the details, or the figures that you'll neither likely be able to reproduce or even experience, then you're never going to get pure enjoyment out of the car, and you're going spend your time always trying to justify you car to yourself and to others. There's always going to be something newer and faster and better. ALWAYS. If you want outright speed, get a GT-R. Or get a ZR1 (low mileage used ones are at the M3's price range). Or Supercharge the M3. Or whatever. My point is that if the claims on what the car can do or why it's so good is what matters to one, then they should be prepared to pony up a lot of cash as they will constantly have to get the newer car or model that's coming out. Better to just measure twice and buy once and enjoy what you have because you justified its impact on you, emotionally and to some extent functionally, prior to making the purchase.
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