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      08-07-2011, 08:12 PM   #45
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Just tryin to point out that indeed BMW is adding more than 100 jobs right NOW in Spartanburg, where I believe that the Unions have no control.
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      08-07-2011, 08:21 PM   #46
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Based on what I pay in property taxes, I should get the use of at least three union teachers in the summer to do work around my house, etc. Fair is fair... we need a full year's work out of those overpaid slackers.
Seriously? Your head is totally up it, dude.
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      08-07-2011, 08:35 PM   #47
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Interesting that the fact sheet says the parts distribution facility will reopen the next day with - wait for it - American workers. So, this isn't at all about what it says it's about. The jobs aren't leaving America. It's about operating an American distribution facility without Teamsters. Let's be honest about the discussion here, gents. The family with 8 kids could still work there if they wanted to.

No doubt the new workers will work for lower wages with lesser benefits. And not knowing what either group makes or what the local market is in CA, I'm not going to comment on that.
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      08-07-2011, 08:41 PM   #48
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Just tryin to point out that indeed BMW is adding more than 100 jobs right NOW in Spartanburg, where I believe that the Unions have no control.
I guess that, to me, that is more of an attack on the union than the American worker.
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      08-07-2011, 09:48 PM   #49
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Unions served their purpose in the early 20th century, but they cannot exist in a competitive environment. They breed laziness. Unions destroyed the steel industry in America, they've practically killed the airlines (Pan-Am, Eastern), the railroads are down to a few plus subsidized, complete waste like AMTRAK, and now they're working on polishing off what's left of the auto industry (only Obama forcing the wealthiest factory workers in the world onto the backs of the American taxpayer, has spared the auto industry from a near complete disappearance in America - Thank you, comrade Obama). Sooner or later, unions will become a thing of the past, and people are going to have to get back to work for those feather-bedded, over-indulgent wages and 25 paid vacation days.
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      08-08-2011, 08:21 AM   #50
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Unions and businesses keep each others' greed in check. When the pendulum swings too far, the greedy get crushed. Where ethical businesses care about their workers and provide reasonable wages, benefits and work rules, unions become irrelevant and cease to exist. Unfortunately there is still a need for unions in some circumstances because unbridled greed still exists among too many business leaders.
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      08-08-2011, 09:01 AM   #51
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Here in Ontario ... FORD is closing a assembly plant completely by the end of this month.

First one is here 10,000 jobs lost ----> Click here for the story

Second one here 1,500 jobs lost ----> Click here for the story

I know form people that worked at these plants that Ford Workers actually sabotaged the assembly line (just before a strike) and relief workers had to correct all these sabotage like actions.

There are always 2 sites to a story as far as I am concerned.

Yes economic times we are in right now at this moment stink and this I think is just the tip of the ice berg, there is mort to come.

As far as BMW is concerned I am not defending them at all, in fact I speak from personal experience that quality is been going down hill over the years. I blame it on the top management (not only at BMW) in organizations where the top management is replaced by Accountants and those people have only one thing in mind to reduce costs at all costs so braze yourself for more of the same to come.

Perhaps we soon have to go back to bicycles and horse and buggies ... who knows ... my $0.02 cents anyway
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      08-08-2011, 09:03 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by dhoggm3 View Post
Unions and businesses keep each others' greed in check. When the pendulum swings too far, the greedy get crushed. Where ethical businesses care about their workers and provide reasonable wages, benefits and work rules, unions become irrelevant and cease to exist. Unfortunately there is still a need for unions in some circumstances because unbridled greed still exists among too many business leaders.
I liked how you started, but then you said " and cease to exist", have you ever seen a Union go quietly?

My biggest problem is the "union mentality", it's often costed organizations and even economys, I also wish that Union workers would understand that business have down turns, they have down years, they can't always afford to up wages or benefits.

PS, I wrote about 3 long paragraphs before deleting..

If you take a look at the Verizon strikes, I promise that the issue is not Verizon's fault, It's that State Governments can no longer afford to pay Verizon because they are all BROKE, this trickles down to the Unions, and the Union then says Verizon is attacking the Union, or the "workers".

AT&T jut purchased T-Mobile, and is now larger than Verizon, does the Union care? NO. It wants to milk Verizon until it is dead, we've seen this ugly ugly cycle in the past, costing many corporations their lives. All Verizon wants is for Union employees get the same benefits as all the other workers, it's so frustrating to see Union workers get more than the other workers only because they can leverage a strike. Unions are no longer partners of their organizations, they are no longer supporters of their companies. Rather they are viruses that will eventually be cleaned out in the most capitalistic of processes.

Union workers only have one place to look, the union bosses. Greed does swing both ways, over the last 20 years, it's swung too far towards the Unions. In the US we are entitled to nothing, we have to earn it all...the American way.
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      08-08-2011, 09:30 AM   #53
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Unions have abused their powers so much, it's hard not to see the move towards 'union' busting, it's really not against the people it's against entitlement issues that many unions have. Just this morning, it's another union issue with Verizon.

The US, not just the private sector are going to be severing ties with Unions over the next couple of years as they are no longer necessary, rather they cause more harm then help. I've heard horror stories from project managers unable to 'talk' to union members because it wasn't apart of their negotiated contract - while they were on the SAME contract. The government has many laws to protect 'service' employees, and set prevailing wages. Unions, union dues are simply inefficient.

System is broken, there is a LOT more to the story then just BMW flipping a switch and removing good workers, BMW is a lot smarter than that.
i'm an IBEW member which is currently on strike against verizon. i have no entitlement issues, my company wants to throw out our contract, take away sick days, 2 holidays, pay cuts, and out source jobs overseas. this is not a struggling company, it is just another american company cost shifting. This is a company that made 24.5 billion dollars last year, paid zero in taxes but still got a refund of 12.5 billion dollars.

as far as the talking to the manager comment, work on this side of the fence and you will understand. my manager misfiled my work absence paper work so i had to refill the same paper work 5 times because of his inability to do his job. it was not a benign action as i was faced with severe job actions an possible termination, all while out sick because my doctor thought i had a brain tumor.

unions keep us from working in hazardous conditions, in which i have lost co-workers in tragic deaths due to negligence. you try and tell a little girl why her dad sat in a bucket truck burning while rescue crews sat idle due to the electrical hazard that was created by an unskilled contract worker. Joseph Allard only died after weeks of suffering from 3rd degree burns and lost appendages.
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      08-08-2011, 10:18 AM   #54
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i'm an IBEW member which is currently on strike against verizon. i have no entitlement issues, my company wants to throw out our contract, take away sick days, 2 holidays, pay cuts, and out source jobs overseas. this is not a struggling company, it is just another american company cost shifting. This is a company that made 24.5 billion dollars last year, paid zero in taxes but still got a refund of 12.5 billion dollars.

as far as the talking to the manager comment, work on this side of the fence and you will understand. my manager misfiled my work absence paper work so i had to refill the same paper work 5 times because of his inability to do his job. it was not a benign action as i was faced with severe job actions an possible termination, all while out sick because my doctor thought i had a brain tumor.

unions keep us from working in hazardous conditions, in which i have lost co-workers in tragic deaths due to negligence. you try and tell a little girl why her dad sat in a bucket truck burning while rescue crews sat idle due to the electrical hazard that was created by an unskilled contract worker. Joseph Allard only died after weeks of suffering from 3rd degree burns and lost appendages.
Do you acknowledget that Verizon has lost it's market share, or lead? You say it's not a 'struggling' company, this is always a 'union' arguement, that the 'corporation' can afford it. I promise you, even the largest powerhouse companies are having lots of issues in this economy. All the while their CEOs are making big money, I'm not going to dispute that in many companies there equity issues. But that is capitalism.

I'm always troubled by this demonization of contract workers, contract workers are often in transition to become unionized, I'm not sure why they all of a sudden become evil, is it because they are taking union jobs? This type of competition occurs all day, everyday in the non-unionized world.

You are obviously closer to the Verizon situation then I am, if there are hazardous conditions the Department of Labor and the Law should kick in, Unions are not encharge of enforcing laws.

A blurb from what is being reported, which is very different from your post -
Quote:
This time around, Verizon wants workers to contribute more for health insurance, including paying monthly premiums for the first time, while the unions say their members can’t accept the financial burden, given the current economy.

“We’re looking to bring our union more in line with what the rest of the workers pay,” said Rich Young, a Verizon spokesman, adding that about 135,000 of Verizon’s about 196,000 employees already contribute to health-insurance premiums. The company also wants to increase co-payments and deductibles for union workers.

“Some of our health-care proposals offer health-care plans for as little as $100 a month,” Young said.

Ron Collins, the CWA’s chief of staff, last month called the proposal a “radical change.” Verizon is a profitable company that pays senior executives well and isn’t in danger of going out of business, said Bob Master, a legislative and political director for the CWA.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...ll-strike.html

This is the cycle right here, union points the finger at the corporation and says, you have the money, spend it. But in my opinion, that is a naive arguement, especially when a company is publicly traded, and liquidity, cash on hand, and speculation are valuation points which directly impact the company. By even going on these strikes, you are basically slapping the hand that feeds you, the Union always forgets that the company is who it's working for, the company doesn't work for the union.

Regarding the issues that you have had, why not leave Verizon - find a better company? In other industries, companys are creating perks to draw new employees, there is a solid compentition to make the workplace fun, or a comfortable place to work. Why work for a company that you don't respect, or want to work for?

If it is a lack of education, there are many grants and certification programs that open doors...I'm confused why people stay at these 'horrible' jobs, or that if they are so clearly breaking the law, why is the DOL not involved.
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      08-08-2011, 10:25 AM   #55
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Oh noes, a business trying to make profit.

If you don't like the working conditions, go find another job. If you can't find a job, create one. If you are working for minimum wage, you already fail. If you have 8 kids, maybe Mr. Jesus should have told you that you can't afford it.
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      08-08-2011, 10:47 AM   #56
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Oh noes, a business trying to make profit.

If you don't like the working conditions, go find another job. If you can't find a job, create one. If you are working for minimum wage, you already fail. If you have 8 kids, maybe Mr. Jesus should have told you that you can't afford it.
read this whole thread, a lot of good posts and valid points.

all comes down to......greed.

^ good post right here too lol.

8 kids, what are you smoking? stop breeding!
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      08-08-2011, 11:13 AM   #57
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I completely agree that the unions need to go. My wife works for a company with union and non-union workers. It is always a pain to get a union worker to do something. They complain if god forbid there's a meeting that goes 10mins past 5pm. "Its not part of my work contract" seems to be the mentality. Heck, they couldn't even fire an incompetent employee that is constantly late, whines just about on anything, leaves early, has below average productivity...etc. Been told countless times to improve. All those behaviors would of hv been enough for firing that person. But since he is part of a union, there are protocals and "procedures". Two years later, they finally were able to fire him. Gave him 4 extra weeks of pay on top of what he is entitled to. And guess what? He is now suing the co. Makes no sense.
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      08-08-2011, 11:20 AM   #58
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Do you acknowledget that Verizon has lost it's market share, or lead? You say it's not a 'struggling' company, this is always a 'union' arguement, that the 'corporation' can afford it. I promise you, even the largest powerhouse companies are having lots of issues in this economy. All the while their CEOs are making big money, I'm not going to dispute that in many companies there equity issues. But that is capitalism.
wireless has supported the bastard child wire line division for sometime but has just become profitable again due to FiOS, which was funded through the pension of their non-union managers. so again it is not struggling. i could go on and on about why the wire line side was losing business but that again would just be a union worker pointing the finger at management decisions.

Quote:
I'm always troubled by this demonization of contract workers, contract workers are often in transition to become unionized, I'm not sure why they all of a sudden become evil, is it because they are taking union jobs? This type of competition occurs all day, everyday in the non-unionized world.
don't be they will always be perceived as hacks, its unfortunate but true. i have spent countless man hours fixing their "work"

Quote:
You are obviously closer to the Verizon situation then I am, if there are hazardous conditions the Department of Labor and the Law should kick in, Unions are not encharge of enforcing laws.
also true but when the managers are forcing you out during a snow storm that has already accumulated over 18 inches of snow and is a hazardous driving condition the DOL will only be reactive not proactive. this wont save lives. Google Worcester ice storm i was one of the workers putting everyone back in service, but only after the condition reached a point where i could safely gaff poles.

Quote:
This is the cycle right here, union points the finger at the corporation and says, you have the money, spend it. But in my opinion, that is a naive arguement, especially when a company is publicly traded, and liquidity, cash on hand, and speculation are valuation points which directly impact the company. By even going on these strikes, you are basically slapping the hand that feeds you, the Union always forgets that the company is who it's working for, the company doesn't work for the union.
i know this very well as my stock and 401k is taking a dive right now.

Quote:
Regarding the issues that you have had, why not leave Verizon - find a better company? In other industries, companys are creating perks to draw new employees, there is a solid compentition to make the workplace fun, or a comfortable place to work. Why work for a company that you don't respect, or want to work for?

If it is a lack of education, there are many grants and certification programs that open doors...I'm confused why people stay at these 'horrible' jobs, or that if they are so clearly breaking the law, why is the DOL not involved.
i love what i do, i am a ten year lineman, private high school, college educated, but wouldn't trade my hooks for a desk any day of the year. my co-workers are family, the managers come and go. my customers appreciate what i sacrifice after tragedy hits. this strike isn't something we wanted to do but the company was proposing a billion dollars worth of cuts for 45k employees. we were all aware that concessions were going to be made but not this great. none of at the IBEW and CWA wanted to do this to our customers but we all hope they can support us, and put this strike to an end quickly. with out the public's support we are lost. many people have stopped to thank us for making a stand but i fear that most Americans are tainted by the perception of the fat, lazy, entitled, and uneducated union worker.

FYI the company had the ability to extend the existing contract one more year but i guess our new CEO lowell McAdams decided to make a grand entrance. a contract extension would have given us a 2.75% raise.
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      08-08-2011, 11:39 AM   #59
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Let's not forget our dipshit Speaker, and our dipshit teabaggers.
There are not too many bright people in Washington anymore, although Paul Ryan is my favorite.

But the guy from Chicago takes the cake in my book.
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      08-08-2011, 11:40 AM   #60
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+1

The Democratic Party contributes to the Unions. The Union Bosses then force the Union Employees to vote for the Democratic Contender completing the self-licking ice cream cone.

Why are all the union bosses rich while their members are barely making it?

Why is all the President and Congress all rich while the rest of us barely make it?

Money, Power, and re-election is all they want and we pick sides and fight over THEM.......
Look at what the UAW took out of the GM deal...I mean if you enjoy throwing up in your mouth.
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      08-08-2011, 11:42 AM   #61
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Yup, looks like an all-out bloody assault on the American worker:

BMW to Hire at Spartanburg County Plant
Posted on August 3, 2011 by mcraft

BMW announced plans to hire 100 new professionals for jobs at its Spartanburg County facility, according to a news release from the S.C. Department of Commerce.

The jobs will include roles such as engineers, IT professionals and production management associates, according to BMW.

The company also announced a new workforce recruitment program and a $5 million family health center for employees, retirees and their covered dependents.

The BMW Scholars Program aims to recruit students interested in a career in skilled manufacturing. BMW will partner with Spartanburg Community College, Greenville Technical College and Tri-County Technical College.

The program will provide tuition and book assistance to student participants, allow them to attend classes full-time and work at the plant up to 20 hours a week.

Find more information about BMW Scholars here.

For more details about the jobs and to apply for the positions, visit http://www.bmwusfactory.com/ or BMWís careers page.
Hahahaha - nicely done.
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      08-08-2011, 03:42 PM   #62
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If unions wanted to do something useful in this day and age they should go start offices in China, Veitnam, India, Taiwan, etc... and help these people to get fair labor rates and conditions. These places are the reasons jobs are leaving North America. Why pay an American $20 an hour to do something when you can pay a Vietnamese kid in a tiger cage $10 month to do it? Why worry about satisfying OSHA when the government will turn a blind eye to few dead workers a year?
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      08-08-2011, 04:39 PM   #63
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Sad. Unions have rules , and usually most of those rules make it really hard for employer, and laying off is nothing unusual.

And the reason we have unions is because corporations would rather abuse employees than provide them a living wage if left to their own devices.
It called free markets. If you don't like your employer you find someone else that Is willing to pay you what you think you desire. Union are the problem not the employees.
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      08-08-2011, 06:48 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Nine View Post
Unions have abused their powers so much, it's hard not to see the move towards 'union' busting, it's really not against the people it's against entitlement issues that many unions have. Just this morning, it's another union issue with Verizon.

The US, not just the private sector are going to be severing ties with Unions over the next couple of years as they are no longer necessary, rather they cause more harm then help. I've heard horror stories from project managers unable to 'talk' to union members because it wasn't apart of their negotiated contract - while they were on the SAME contract. The government has many laws to protect 'service' employees, and set prevailing wages. Unions, union dues are simply inefficient.

System is broken, there is a LOT more to the story then just BMW flipping a switch and removing good workers, BMW is a lot smarter than that.
Totally agree. Here in Charleston, the National Labor Relations Board is suing Boeing ( on behalf of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers Union) because they built a second facility here to build the 787. NLRB is suing because Boeing took jobs away from Washington State by moving here ................. WTF, "if" the NLRB were to win, then Unions and the NLRB will effectively be able to dictate to private companies where they can choose to do business and build their facilities. This is crazy.
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      08-08-2011, 06:55 PM   #65
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Unions served their purpose in the early 20th century, but they cannot exist in a competitive environment. They breed laziness. Unions destroyed the steel industry in America, they've practically killed the airlines (Pan-Am, Eastern), the railroads are down to a few plus subsidized, complete waste like AMTRAK, and now they're working on polishing off what's left of the auto industry (only Obama forcing the wealthiest factory workers in the world onto the backs of the American taxpayer, has spared the auto industry from a near complete disappearance in America - Thank you, comrade Obama). Sooner or later, unions will become a thing of the past, and people are going to have to get back to work for those feather-bedded, over-indulgent wages and 25 paid vacation days.
"Thank you, comrade Obama"
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      08-15-2011, 06:29 PM   #66
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It called free markets.
There is no such thing as a "free market". That is just an ideology. ALL markets are manipulated.
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