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      04-17-2007, 06:24 PM   #1
swiss_cornholio
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Waiting lists in Europe???

I read a lot about waiting lists (especially from Americans) and deposits. Here in Switzerland it goes more like: "M3? Just wait for the brochure, then we discuss the details and then you order. Deposit? If you don't choose too strange options, we don't need that."
Are the dealers in the US just smarter than those in Europe or do we get enough Ms in Europe so there's no need for a waiting list?
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      04-18-2007, 10:13 AM   #2
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American and Cars demand both ways

Quote:
Originally Posted by swiss_cornholio View Post
I read a lot about waiting lists (especially from Americans) and deposits. Here in Switzerland it goes more like: "M3? Just wait for the brochure, then we discuss the details and then you order. Deposit? If you don't choose too strange options, we don't need that."
Are the dealers in the US just smarter than those in Europe or do we get enough Ms in Europe so there's no need for a waiting list?
I believe there are two factors that play heavily into this

1. The US Price of a comparable BMW at todays exchange rate is so much cheaper in the US. Europeans dont normally buy American Made cars, so
Americans have no real domestic compettitor to BMW (Cadillac Maybe)
The Japanese cars are mass producred and even the performance versions are normally available in reasonable numbers fairly soon after launch.
My 335Cab with all but Nav was $47,9 USD or 35,200K Euros the same car on the German website is 66K Euros with vat. 100% same options, I get Military/
Diplomatic discounts but 5K USD is not going to effect it much
THATS NEARLY HALF PRICE !

2. BMW NA and GMBH have worked hard to make sure the market has not become saturated by the M-3, Pent up demand allows for people to step down to a 335 and BMW has kept their numbers up. Americans assume it is also in short supply in Europe, We on a net forum know better however the
Magazine reading American does not. It is next to impossible to export a
M-3 Euro spec to the states with our differing safety and Emission standards.
It makes no economic sense.

The Other Way
3. Americans can buy X-5s at huge discounts to the Germans and German dealers allocations are often 9 Months out The same with the ML350 from Mercedes. They have lists shared with Audi of known vehicle brokers in the US and part of their sales aggreements often include you may not export clauses. The Dealers are SEVERELY Penalized whena vehicle Like the X-5 or ML-350 show up in Italy, Russia, Korea or anywhere else. The Rest of the World will pay dearly for the Well made SUV, It has become a status symbol.

MB of North America will not sell me an ML on the Diplomat military program
It is 56 percent of what a German Pays for one and 40 Percent of what an Italian pays (find that ODD)

With the exchange rate it is quite profitable to send these SUVS to Europe, Pay the import fees and the VAT, convert to pass TUV and sell on the Market
here. Now if they catch you end up on a broker list and MB, BMW and AUDI will make you life miserable with special legal departments to do just that.

THe Warranty is still valid in the Europe but it goes from 4/50Miles US
in BMWs to 2 yr Unlimited in Europe

Its a game of supply and demand, to Europeans, Luxury SUVS have become status hot selling Vehicles.
The M-3 is a Hot US market car, now if the Us imposed tariffs and the M-3 became $110K to equal the British market would it sell as many
Probably not............................................... .....................
THe Same Corvette I can buy new at $43K USD with a very good warranty
would cost $105K USD in the UK

As a BMW/Porsche/MB/Reman car enthusiast I Like it this way

As an American, I see we are putting our own car companies
out of business buy not charging tariffs

I can order a Vette and have it in 6 weeks, you can have a BMW in about the same time anywhere in Europe, except an X-5

If a Corvette was $43K USD or Around $3OK Euros would it sell ?
Even if you added 19 percent VAT it would be a hit because it would be chaper than any Car and about what a VW Beetle Convertable costs !
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      04-18-2007, 10:59 AM   #3
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I wasn't even going for the ridiculous price difference (we overpay 50% so that every American bum can afford a European luxury car)...

I was actually more interested in why some dealers would get their customers to get on a "list" and pay a deposit for a car of which not even the specs are out (they are now, but it already started before).
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      04-18-2007, 12:45 PM   #4
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Difference

Quote:
Originally Posted by swiss_cornholio View Post
I wasn't even going for the ridiculous price difference (we overpay 50% so that every American bum can afford a European luxury car)...

I was actually more interested in why some dealers would get their customers to get on a "list" and pay a deposit for a car of which not even the specs are out (they are now, but it already started before).
I resemble that remark about being an American Bum !

In the US, performance cars are a status symbol, as well and in the Seventies and Early eighties, the demand got so bad that Honda
initially, then Toyota dealers were preselling cars, they would take
a deposit (Refundable normally of around $1000) and call you when they could get one in

This just kept going, and dealers of high end sports cars, like Porsche BMW and Audi would fly journalists over and let them test the car Way before the final American Specs were released. Then the Media then started with rumors of new cars, often that a New M3, or the Boxster, or the special edition cars like the 911RS would be built and speculators and enthusists would put money down to #1 on the list. Example in 99 I put $1000 down to be the first to own the S-2000 Honda at MSRP (sticker price) at three different dealers

When the S-2000 came out dealers were selling for $5000 or $10000 over
MSRP to get one. I Had the number one spot at three dealers and 2 were no
problem in selling at sticker, I kept one sold the other for $6000 profit over
sticker

The last dealer said my signed aggreement wasnt at MSRP and offered me his first one at $10,000 USD dollars over.

I had a lawyer on retainer and put him on it, this one went all the hay to the head of Honda (many of whom faced bribery charges from some deals they
did in the eighties)

Honda said, and this is true of any car dealer aggreement in the US,
that the MSRP in the United States stands for Manufactures Suggested
Retail Pricing and the dealers could set whatever price they desired

Our attourney filed a motion to Halt the dealer from selling the cars and
the Judge upheld it. The papers were served and the dealer ignored and sold the car at 10,000 Over MSRP. About a week after this happened the dealer finally had sense enough to listen to his legal council. For ignoring the motion
he offered us $5000 of his profit. We decided we wanted him to produce the car that was sold out from under-us. we had the VIN. The Judge agreed and asked both of us to propose a settlement...... Seemed to go well

He didnt want to do much negotiating so we met again with the Judge
and we agreed to non-binding arbitration.

Long story short, He ended up producing my original deposit, the entire profit he made on the vehicle with interest based on T-Bills and would sell me any Honda I wanted for his cost Invoice less all holdbacks and incentives. Got a check for $13K and some change.

THIS happens all the time in the US, last year with the Shelby Cobra
and Z-06 Corvette. This year in the US its the New Special Shelby cobra
the M-3, the R-8 Audi and I heard of some special edition Evo thats rumored.

I have a friend who is the owner of a Porsche/ BMW/ Audi and Volkswagen
store that in 1999-2000 when VW showed a 12 cylinder sports car, I cannot remember the concept name, His dealership took 20 deposits of a Grand for right to buy the first one at Msrp. since he would only get one a year, and it ending up not being made (can you say Lamborgini instead) he had the deposits for 1-2 Years before people asked for them back. Multiply this times
the amount of concept cars and rumored cars and it easily got to be $200K
in an account earning interest.

Crazy game Americans play it I know some awfully shrewd Swiss who If I owered them a deal that they new they could make money on like this I would have the money overnight.

Probably too much detail but hope it helps
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      04-18-2007, 10:40 PM   #5
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Ohhh the Vdub 12 cylinder is the infamous W12. man that was a sweet concept. i loved it in PGR3 it was my baby such a stable platform to race off of. Thats just a game anyway what credit does it really have lol.

Mike
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      04-19-2007, 09:44 AM   #6
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that waiting list that is out is only for the "dealer"
and there is no official waiting list to BMW NA until productions tarts
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      04-19-2007, 02:11 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swiss_cornholio View Post
I was actually more interested in why some dealers would get their customers to get on a "list" and pay a deposit for a car of which not even the specs are out (they are now, but it already started before).
Because if they don't then there will be no way to know who gets the first ones. The only other way to do it would be to form a line outside the dealership the day the order banks open, like they are selling Wii's or PS3's on launch day or something. That works fine for generation X and Y gamers, but not for people buying a $60k car.

(Although personally I'd be fine waiting in line, but I think most people would be pissed )
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      04-20-2007, 04:09 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swiss_cornholio View Post
I wasn't even going for the ridiculous price difference (we overpay 50% so that every American bum can afford a European luxury car)...

I was actually more interested in why some dealers would get their customers to get on a "list" and pay a deposit for a car of which not even the specs are out (they are now, but it already started before).
LOL @ Americans only being able to afford European Luxury cars because you pay twice as much.

Who's the tool now?
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      04-20-2007, 06:31 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmund1948 View Post
As an American, I see we are putting our own car companies out of business buy not charging tariffs
You could also say foreign governments are putting american car companies out of business by CHARGING tariffs, couldn't you?

You seem to know alot about international differences in car pricing - your post was interesting reading.

I have heard people say stuff like "BMW's are like chevy's in Europe/Germany"
AKA - even the cops drive them, they are not viewed as a 'status symbol' or priced prohibitively expensive. Basically, arguing that americans are being scammed into believing that BMW's are special (and paying out the a$$ for them), when really they are nothing.

I obviously found this impossible to believe for obvious reasons, and posts such as yours paint a much different picture.

It seems more like the price in Europe/UK would mean that BMW's are much more exclusive there than they are in the US, where they can be had for half price.

More clarification appreciated.
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      04-21-2007, 04:38 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chitown08 View Post

I have heard people say stuff like "BMW's are like chevy's in Europe/Germany"
AKA - even the cops drive them, they are not viewed as a 'status symbol' or priced prohibitively expensive. Basically, arguing that americans are being scammed into believing that BMW's are special (and paying out the a$$ for them), when really they are nothing.

I obviously found this impossible to believe for obvious reasons, and posts such as yours paint a much different picture.

It seems more like the price in Europe/UK would mean that BMW's are much more exclusive there than they are in the US, where they can be had for half price.

More clarification appreciated.

Yes, cops do drive them over here. And the non-M models aren't exclusive. So why do we pay 30-50% more? Because we don't have a choice! BMW (and others) evened out price differences within Europe, i.e. it's not cheaper buying it in the country next to yours. Why is it cheaper in the US? Because they wouldn't sell that many over there otherwise. Now BWM needs to have an average revenue of X% per car; if they sell it below that in one country, they have to sell it above that in another. That's how I came to the conclusion that Europeans pay for the discount Americans get.
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      04-21-2007, 07:32 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swiss_cornholio View Post
I wasn't even going for the ridiculous price difference (we overpay 50% so that every American bum can afford a European luxury car)...

I was actually more interested in why some dealers would get their customers to get on a "list" and pay a deposit for a car of which not even the specs are out (they are now, but it already started before).
Switzerland is a rich country, so don't try to cry poor to anyone.
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      04-21-2007, 01:13 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swiss_cornholio View Post
I wasn't even going for the ridiculous price difference (we overpay 50% so that every American bum can afford a European luxury car)...

I was actually more interested in why some dealers would get their customers to get on a "list" and pay a deposit for a car of which not even the specs are out (they are now, but it already started before).
First: American bum - afford? This American bum doesn't need your subsidy to buy a European luxury car - but obviously if it comes my way I'm not going to turn it down.

Second: My dealer didn't "get" me on the waiting list for the M3. I asked to be included and as a courtesy (good business practice), he included me. This obviously gives me first dibs when the car becomes available. Sure, my salesperson could have shrugged me off and told me to come back at the appropriate time. He certainly doesn't need my order to make a sale when the M3 finally arrives. But, if he wants my loyalty (my repeat business and customer referrals), he will treat me with the respect I deserve as a valued customer.
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      04-21-2007, 02:37 PM   #13
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You mean you would pay $100K USD for an M3

Quote:
Originally Posted by carnuts3 View Post
First: American bum - afford? This American bum doesn't need your subsidy to buy a European luxury car - but obviously if it comes my way I'm not going to turn it down.

Second: My dealer didn't "get" me on the waiting list for the M3. I asked to be included and as a courtesy (good business practice), he included me. This obviously gives me first dibs when the car becomes available. Sure, my salesperson could have shrugged me off and told me to come back at the appropriate time. He certainly doesn't need my order to make a sale when the M3 finally arrives. But, if he wants my loyalty (my repeat business and customer referrals), he will treat me with the respect I deserve as a valued customer.
I am an American, but hey I would no way pay $100,000 plus options in USD for an M3, if thats the case that price.

I am sorry but $100K $110 K with options would kep a lot of people from standing in line to buy the car especially in America

Maybe why I like being an American, ok I am in Germany. and If Germans
could by an American Product cheaper than I could, I would be pissed.
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      04-21-2007, 03:24 PM   #14
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I'm confused, can someone please clear this up:

What accounts for the high price of a BMW in Europe? Is it tax & tariffs (AKA the governments fault) or is it BMW's pricing decision?

Also, if they are so expensive then how can they be so common, unless everyone is rich compared to the US. (AKA everyone makes double what Americans make, given the same cost of living, therefore it is just as easy to buy the car even tho it costs double)

I don't understand this phenomenon. where you at gmund
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      04-21-2007, 04:13 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chitown08 View Post
I'm confused, can someone please clear this up:

What accounts for the high price of a BMW in Europe? Is it tax & tariffs (AKA the governments fault) or is it BMW's pricing decision?

Also, if they are so expensive then how can they be so common, unless everyone is rich compared to the US. (AKA everyone makes double what Americans make, given the same cost of living, therefore it is just as easy to buy the car even tho it costs double)

I don't understand this phenomenon. where you at gmund
It's entirely BMW's decision. In Switzerland we don't have any special taxes on cars and VAT is only 7.6%.

About perception of BMWs over here:
1 & 3 series: common
5,6,7,M: luxury

average salary in Switzerland: ~$50k/year
graduate job salary: $80k-120k/year
Now I don't think this is the double of comparable jobs in the US. And as the cost of living are much higher here, there is definitely not more money left to spend on cars.
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      04-21-2007, 05:09 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swiss_cornholio View Post
About perception of BMWs over here:
1 & 3 series: common
5,6,7,M: luxury
Well, from this it sounds similar to the US, just because 3 series is the cheapest it is relatively 'common'. At least compared to more expensive 5,6,7,M.

However, doesn't the 3 series cost double what it does in the US. So how is it possible that a car with that price tag in Europe is 'common'.

For instance, if the 328i was $60k in the US, no one would buy it. And if that is how much it costs in Europe then how could it possibly be common? And why would anyone buy it?

thanks swiss
still confused tho.
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      04-21-2007, 05:46 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chitown08 View Post
Well, from this it sounds similar to the US, just because 3 series is the cheapest it is relatively 'common'. At least compared to more expensive 5,6,7,M.

However, doesn't the 3 series cost double what it does in the US. So how is it possible that a car with that price tag in Europe is 'common'.

For instance, if the 328i was $60k in the US, no one would buy it. And if that is how much it costs in Europe then how could it possibly be common? And why would anyone buy it?

thanks swiss
still confused tho.
A 325i E90 is about $40k. That's still not cheap but affordable for many people. An E92 M3 will be $88k, and that's why not "everyone"
will get one...

And remember: We let our cops drive the 5 series! :-)
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      04-21-2007, 09:19 PM   #18
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'cos of the relatively week dollar, most luxury cars here in Nigeria are brought in privately from the US. Our official BMW/Landrover dealer's cars (who sources from/through Europe) end up being up to 80% more expensive than the privates. Private impotation from the US is now big business
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      04-21-2007, 09:37 PM   #19
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America is such a wonderful country. I'll be able to buy an M3 in about 1.5 years for $65K while others are talking about 6 digit price tags.

I do wish we were getting a better investment on all the money we've thrown at the Iraqis - our gas should be about 1 dollar per gallon instead of 3 per gallon when we spend about a billion dollars per month on the middle east.
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      04-21-2007, 09:48 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerisolphaln View Post
America is such a wonderful country. I'll be able to buy an M3 in about 1.5 years for $65K while others are talking about 6 digit price tags.

I do wish we were getting a better investment on all the money we've thrown at the Iraqis - our gas should be about 1 dollar per gallon instead of 3 per gallon when we spend about a billion dollars per month on the middle east.
Iraq: That would be going into the politucs of what America is doing there. Please let'snot go down that discussion path
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      04-22-2007, 02:42 AM   #21
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Europeans versus Americans BMWs and status

Quote:
Originally Posted by swiss_cornholio View Post
A 325i E90 is about $40k. That's still not cheap but affordable for many people. An E92 M3 will be $88k, and that's why not "everyone" will get one...

And remember: We let our cops drive the 5 series! :-)
Switzerland is indeed one of the richest countries in the world, I
absolutely love it, Almost Married a Swiss Girl. Then I did

The biggest factor is the exchange rate (Read carefully

2001/2002 1 Dollar= 1.20 Euro
2006/2007 1 Euro = 1.36 Dollars

What does a 48 percent difference tell you ?

First
Europeans have many choices in cars we do not, Gm only offers
the Cadillac line, and the Corvette over here. Most Europeans do not trade cars as often as Americans and any upper middle class Europeans, are taxed to the point that we Americans cannot believe.

Swiss Man, I Think a 330 in Switzerland is the 328 in the US equipped
the same is Swiss 68K CHK (Swiss Francs) or US $55 thousand USD
The same car in the US is $32,995. Same equipment

I am going to post some facts on Germany, but most are true for all EU or European countries.

Americans can take a Mortgage out to buy a house and
the Interest and Property taxes are deductable off their
personal income tax

The Europeans cannot deduct the Interest or property taxes off their personal income taxes

BMW offers in Germany a 4 cylinder 2 liter gas motor E90 Sedan 318I with a 6 spd radio coth interior,manual ac heating and 16" wheels for 29K Euros or
40K USD (ok includes VAT tax )
A Toyota Camry has a nicer interior than this model and is US $19K with
more equipment.

In Europe the Value added tax VAT on items purchased is 19 percent an
is included in the price in some States you may have 8-9 Percent at the most

The Europeans pay about 6 Euro a Gallon for Premium fuel thats $ 8.15 a gallon converted

Americans pay $3.25 a gallon on average for Premium or 2.39 Euros

Most Europeans Do not put the badge on their new car, so you cant
tell if you are passing a Diesel, a 318 or 335 unless you can count exhausts
To confuse even more you can order a 140 HP Diesel with the M Sport package ? Looks like the same as a car that costs twice as much ?

THe 3 Series is the Bread and butter car for BMW, along with the 1 Series

THe entry Level BMW is the 1 series which is quite a car
The 335/M is pretty High end for most Europeans the 5 series, the 6 and the 7 are for the more well off

The current trend for the the upper class is the High end SUVs
A Cayenne X-5 and the New ML are the Trendy cars here.

GM sells quite a few Opels which they do not send to the US,
including a 2 seet metal top convertable

French cars are also very available

Ford the focus and other Models we never see.

A Jeep here is 50K Euro a PT Cruiser 40K Euro

A Corvette is 80K Euros a Z06 125K Euros

PICKem-Up trucks Are almost non existant, they drive Vans

I hope this gives a more accurate picture of what the autos cost
in Europe, companies like Kia, Hyundai, Toyota, Honda and Mazda
are getting a bigger share of the market, but tarriffs keep the on
level with European manufactures.

Living in Europe is way more expensive than anywhere in the States in many ways, after taxes little is left for automobiles.

Out of class mobility is rare here, if your family has money, you will likely end up in the same class as your family,

THe exchange rate has killed the Americans spending advantage in Europe
in the late 90s-2002 I used to come here and pay $50 USD for a decent hotel with a bath and breakfast in a small hotel in Salzberg or even in most of Switzerland now Its $120 for the same place at the same time.

Americans are lucky we pay very little in taxes compared to the Europeans

Now a European can vacation in the States for a fraction of what it costs in Europe, I know several well educated europeans who take virtually empy suitcases and then shop at our outlet malls and dept stores in the states
They launder their clothes, once and have saved so much on premium brand
clothes they more than paid for their plane fare.

Its a crazy word we live in, and it has become flatter, I went to Romania and Bulgaria in 03 and bought a piece of land in a ski area for $10K USD, I sold 1/2 of it this January and it more than paid for an M3. Alas we always have
the regrets,in 99 a 3 bedroom house in Croatia, clear title, 50 feet from the adriatic with beach frontage for $35K USD now worth $300K A used BMW
E-30 in good shape with inspection is $1000

I see more BMWs on my way to work than anywhere I have been in the US
Most are 3 series, some 5s and 1s.

Ok so much for brevity



Hope this paints a better picture








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      04-22-2007, 10:11 PM   #22
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Chicago

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That was fascinating. seriously.

But I still don't get how if BMW's are so expensive in Europe, (and if anything cost of living is higher there), then how can there possibly be so many 3 series driving around...

I think the answer is that German tariffs cause imported cars such as US Chevy, or Japanese Toyota to become equal in price to BMW? As a result, a German will be choosing between a $40kUSD Camry vs. a $40kUSD 3 series?

Is that right?
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