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      08-02-2011, 07:38 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate@IND View Post
German labor and we pay in Euros
Exactly why you don't buy something like this from Europe. The dollar sucks right now. It very simple piece to build and any decent fabricator in the USA can make this for a small fraction of the price. In fact you could probably find one similar from jegs or summit racing etc. and simply weld a couple mounting points and hose adapters and have a complete piece for under $500. No need to pay euros for a simple aluminum radiator.
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      08-02-2011, 07:54 PM   #24
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Exactly why you don't buy something like this from Europe. The dollar sucks right now. It very simple piece to build and any decent fabricator in the USA can make this for a small fraction of the price. In fact you could probably find one similar from jegs or summit racing etc. and simply weld a couple mounting points and hose adapters and have a complete piece for under $500. No need to pay euros for a simple aluminum radiator.
agreed
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      08-02-2011, 08:13 PM   #25
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Doesn't the ESS have a self contained oil supply?
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      08-02-2011, 08:29 PM   #26
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Doesn't the ESS have a self contained oil supply?
This is an oil cooler for the motor, not the supercharger. Any type of forced induction will increase oil temps.
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      08-03-2011, 12:27 AM   #27
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Is there a suggested shop in Los Angeles that you could recommend?
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      08-03-2011, 12:50 AM   #28
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This is an oil cooler for the motor, not the supercharger. Any type of forced induction will increase oil temps.
I understand that but was wondering if the blower shares the oil with the car's oil.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      08-03-2011, 01:48 AM   #29
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without SC its hard to have oil temps above 110 °C

even on the Nürburgring, with 28°C degree outside temperature its hard to be higher

never the less, its sounds interesting and I will call them, maybe its cheaper for me as a German ;-)

cheers
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      08-03-2011, 09:50 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
I understand that but was wondering if the blower shares the oil with the car's oil.
yes.


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Originally Posted by Simrokkzz View Post
without SC its hard to have oil temps above 110 °C

even on the Nürburgring, with 28°C degree outside temperature its hard to be higher

never the less, its sounds interesting and I will call them, maybe its cheaper for me as a German ;-)

cheers
At many tracks here in US at summer time, temps get as high as 40°C.
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      08-03-2011, 09:55 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VictorH View Post
That's nice, but seriously, there's no one in the US who could make the same thing for 1/2 the price?

There are lots of companies here in US that can make it for half the price.



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Originally Posted by Andrew@IND View Post
We just finished snapping some comparison shots and will have those up shortly. Wait until you see this beast next to the factory unit.

http://parts.ind-distribution.com/pr...ry=view&no=692


And why does IND website say that the cooler is made by IND?? Not cool at all. No wonder the mark up is so high.
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      08-03-2011, 10:05 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
I understand that but was wondering if the blower shares the oil with the car's oil.
the oil for the Vortech V3 supercharger used in the ESS kits is self contained. There is no need for external cooling. The VT2 kits, however, do use a water intercooler for cooling the engine's intake manifold (i.e. to cool the incoming air, not the oil for the supercharger).
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      08-03-2011, 10:06 AM   #33
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I'm gonna have to pick one of these up soon.
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      08-03-2011, 10:06 AM   #34
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I apologize for the confusion, but that IND image you reference is a default image we use when we are producing a manufacturer logo for our site. If you reference the text in the description you will see that we mention it is made by Motorsport24 DBA M24 multiple times. Once again we apologize for the confusion and those who do business with us and know us personally can attest to the fact that we would NEVER falsely market a product.

Below is the description on our website as well as in this thread:

"M24 Oil Cooler

German competition components manufacturer Motorsport24 has created a unique oil cooling solution for the E9x M3. Their oversized oil cooler is a direct fit in any E9x M3 and is hand built in their state of the art facility in the small town of Kalefeld Germany. The cooler is substantially larger than the factory cooler, and has been tested to be effective on courses like the Nurburgring, Hockenheimring, and the Motorsport Arena Oschersleben to produce as much as a 50 degree Fahrenheit drop in oil temperature!"
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      08-03-2011, 10:44 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J08M3 View Post
Exactly why you don't buy something like this from Europe. The dollar sucks right now. It very simple piece to build and any decent fabricator in the USA can make this for a small fraction of the price. In fact you could probably find one similar from jegs or summit racing etc. and simply weld a couple mounting points and hose adapters and have a complete piece for under $500. No need to pay euros for a simple aluminum radiator.
I definitely appreciate your point, and can agree also with the desire to do the job yourself. You're showing quite a bit of initiative by offering to get an off the shelf cooler from Jegs or Summit and adapting it to the E9x M3, and I am definitely looking forward to your DIY about the project. Great idea!

As a counterpoint, here's an example of an oil cooler built in the US using off the shelf parts as you suggested:

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-40...ooler-kit.aspx

The kit is for an E46 M3, and sells for $1,054. The cooler is an off the shelf Fluidyne unit. Turner does supply you with the appropriate lines and fittings to adapt the cooler to the M3, as the fittings on the cooler are not a direct fit to the M3 cooler lines. Turner also tells you that custom brackets must be fabricated to fit the cooler to the car.

By comparison, the M24 oil cooler includes machined aluminum blocks that allow for use of the original BMW oil cooler lines. The blocks must be designed in CAD by an engineer, test units must be made, then finally the blocks have to be machined from a block of aluminum billet and finish welded to the M24 cooler core.

The end tanks are also hand made, and are unique to the M24 cooler. By creating their own end tanks, M24 was able to produce a cooler that not only replicates factory oil flow characteristics inside the cooler, but also fits exactly within the factory sizing constraints.

From there, instead of sending you a generic core and telling you to make your own brackets, M24 created brackets that are designed to use the factory fastners and even the factory bushings. Here also these are not a generic bracket but rather a machined piece. That means the original bracket has to be measured first, then a new bracket must be designed specifically to the new M24 core. The bracket has to be drawn in CAD, and again machined from aluminum. The bracket is then hand-welded to the hand-welded end tanks that are already on the cooling core.

In order to weld the cooler line blocks and brackets to the cooling core, a jig must be made to ensure correct fit each time the product is built. The jig must again be designed in CAD and built from steel or aluminum. Once the jig is made you can actually build the cooler with good dimensional precision.

This process adds to the cost of the cooler, but also enhances the quality. Aftermarket cooler lines are not needed because the blocks on the cooler are designed specifically to fit with the E9x M3's factory cooler lines. You're not left to make the brackets on your own, because the M24 cooler comes with sturdy brackets that interface with the OEM mounting points and OEM bushings.

Of course companies like Setrab, Fluidyne, and others have economy of scale on their side. Similarly to Turner's $1,000 cooler kit, many companies use overseas manufacturing, and are not selling a low volume item like an E9x M3 specific cooler. The Fluidyne core seen on Turner's website is sold as a general application product with thousands of units produced per year, which reduces the manufacturing cost substantially. Additionally, there is no guarantee that the coolers seen on Jegs or Summit are made entirely in the US. Overseas manufacturing also allows for lower production costs.

Unfortunately, IND as a company has always tried our best to stay away from "generic fit" products, or products built overseas. It's not possible to do so every time, but if we have a choice between a specifically designed product built in Germany and a generic piece that's meant to fit many cars, we will choose the specifically designed, German built product every time.

Additionally, I do feel that certain companies have a passion for BMW specifically, and we choose to work more with those companies. This is the reason why IND prefers to help our clients obtain Eisenmann or Akrapovic exhausts over say, Magnaflow, Billy Boat, or even Corsa. Similarly to a "Jegs catalog" oil cooler solution, companies like Magnaflow, Borla, Billy Boat, and other American exhaust manufacturers do offer exhaust system solutions for BMW cars, but we've found that the passion is simply not evident in those products. Simply put, B&B, Magnaflow, etc... don't care about BMW enthusiasts or the E9x M3, and IND prefers to work with people who do.

It's for this reason that I personally would choose a hand built product created by a company with a passion for BMW, rather than an item that is available from a Jegs or Summit catalog.

Different strokes for different folks! In any case, sorry for the long winded response, and best of luck to you on your oil cooler project!


Quote:
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Is there a suggested shop in Los Angeles that you could recommend?
There are many shops in Los Angeles, but I'd recommend working with "AutoTalent" for install services.
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      08-03-2011, 10:45 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brosef View Post
the oil for the Vortech V3 supercharger used in the ESS kits is self contained. There is no need for external cooling. The VT2 kits, however, do use a water intercooler for cooling the engine's intake manifold (i.e. to cool the incoming air, not the oil for the supercharger).
This is correct. Our supercharger systems were designed to run a self contained oil system which is not shared with the motor. This allows for less work during installation and lower engine oil temps during operation.
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      08-03-2011, 10:50 AM   #37
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Great looking product IND! Thanks for finding it, doing research on it, testing it, using your money to import them so that we in the states can buy them, etc. For people who think they can do all the R&D, fabrication, testing, shipping, etc for less for a plug and play unit, step up and put your $$ where your mouth is! But don't fault a business for selling something at a profit. That's what businesses are supposed to do! You'd be mad if you worked all day and then your boss gave you a high five instead of a paycheck!
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      08-03-2011, 11:15 AM   #38
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Great looking product IND! Thanks for finding it, doing research on it, testing it, using your money to import them so that we in the states can buy them, etc. For people who think they can do all the R&D, fabrication, testing, shipping, etc for less for a plug and play unit, step up and put your $$ where your mouth is! But don't fault a business for selling something at a profit. That's what businesses are supposed to do! You'd be mad if you worked all day and then your boss gave you a high five instead of a paycheck!
I'm not faulting them at all, also not suggesting everyone here goes into the business of fabricating parts to sell. I'm simply saying you can easily make your own, for less money, and pay in dollars instead of importing from Germany and paying Euros. You definitely don't need CAD or testing to build one for yourself, that is only necessary if you plan to mass produce these. There's no rocket science to building a one off aluminum radiator for your car, no computers necessary for this. You bring your car to someone who is good at metal work and let them take measurements and go to town.
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      08-03-2011, 11:19 AM   #39
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Definitely true! I absolutely applaud those who choose to go the DIY route, and am looking forward to seeing some of those DIY oil coolers in action.
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      08-03-2011, 11:23 AM   #40
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Definitely true! I absolutely applaud those who choose to go the DIY route, and am looking forward to seeing some of those DIY oil coolers in action.
Yhea would be nice... But I have a feeling some of these guys are all talk no show
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      08-03-2011, 12:08 PM   #41
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I'm not faulting them at all, also not suggesting everyone here goes into the business of fabricating parts to sell. I'm simply saying you can easily make your own, for less money, and pay in dollars instead of importing from Germany and paying Euros. You definitely don't need CAD or testing to build one for yourself, that is only necessary if you plan to mass produce these. There's no rocket science to building a one off aluminum radiator for your car, no computers necessary for this. You bring your car to someone who is good at metal work and let them take measurements and go to town.
^^


Im surprised this is the first direct fit oil cooler for M3.
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      08-03-2011, 01:32 PM   #42
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Yhea would be nice... But I have a feeling some of these guys are all talk no show
I never said I was going to make one I have no need. But do have metal fabricating experience so was just commenting on price. Tough to keep an oil radiator affordable after importing it from Europe and still be able to make some profit.
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      08-04-2011, 07:21 AM   #43
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Additionally, I do feel that certain companies have a passion for BMW specifically, and we choose to work more with those companies. This is the reason why IND prefers to help our clients obtain Eisenmann or Akrapovic exhausts over say, Magnaflow, Billy Boat, or even Corsa. Similarly to a "Jegs catalog" oil cooler solution, companies like Magnaflow, Borla, Billy Boat, and other American exhaust manufacturers do offer exhaust system solutions for BMW cars, but we've found that the passion is simply not evident in those products. Simply put, B&B, Magnaflow, etc... don't care about BMW enthusiasts or the E9x M3, and IND prefers to work with people who do.

It's for this reason that I personally would choose a hand built product created by a company with a passion for BMW, rather than an item that is available from a Jegs or Summit catalog.
This is the only part I disagree with you. I'm in 100% agreement with your point about the exhaust since the sound of the car is very noticeable and it takes a ton of research and development to come up with a muffler that can be mass produced, fit perfect, add (or at least not lose) HP, eliminate drone, and produce a great sounding tone. This is the reason I've bought products like Eisenmann from IND before. But an oil cooler is not so complicated, and where is M24 getting their cores from? There's no magic to an aluminum radiator core. The skills come into play on the measuring and building the brackets and mounting points. I agree it's a lot of work if you want to start mass producing these and selling them as bolt-on kits, and your expecting low volume sales in the end. Of course it'll be expensive, and again the dollar sucks right now compared to Euro. That's why I think it's not the most efficient route for the client to take on this type of product.
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      08-06-2011, 01:28 AM   #44
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Is there a suggested shop in Los Angeles that you could recommend?
No but I do know of one in Carson...
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