BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General BMW News and Cars Discussion
 
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      07-27-2011, 07:35 AM   #45
Matski
Captain
Matski's Avatar
England
13
Rep
643
Posts

 
Drives: A slow BMW
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: England

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HBspeed View Post
Do you really think if I could show up to my local BMW dealership tomorrow and order an M3 CSL or 1M CSL I would give a hoot what else is sitting on the lot?

You just made the same fallacy in logic that happens almost every time someone defends BMW for making M SUV's. You conveniently made the jump in reasoning that I am unhappy with BMW on the independent basis of them making M SUV's when that was never said.

What I did say was that people like me (sorry for insinuating you think the same) are upset that BMW is focusing on such endeavors as M SUV's, Z/X series crossovers, or whatever to the detriment of their enthusiast or hardcore products. The most "hardcore" car BMW sells in the United States is a sporty GT (M3) or a near sports car with a unsatisfying engine (1M).

Last time I checked Audi has the R8, Mercedes has the SLS and the Black Series, and Porsche has more hardcore cayman/boxster/911 variants than I can name here. What does BMW have?
Well, you did imply that any news of 'sporty SUV's' is equivalent to spitting in our faces, so I'm pretty sure you are dissatisfied with BMW for making them, but besides that I didn't mention any current or future X M product directley anyway, so that's not the assumption I made...

You, and plenty of other users seem to imply BMW have changed, lost their way, or don't offer what they once did.. pretty much any thread about new X products, FWD products, or BMW-i is rife such statements, that then seems to be used by many as justification for buying a comptitors product --- which makes absolutley ZERO sense to me, I felt your post implied that too, apologies if thats not what you meant.

On the other hand - I totally agree, it would be nice to have a fully fledged supercar, the argument about whether or not it really makes sense for BMW to do it now doesn't really belong here - but in simple terms, they are not loosing that many customers, enthusiasts or not, to the R8 or SLS... and let's not write off the M6 before it's even been unveiled.

I think your greivence shouldn't necessarily be levelled against new products such as these wierd X's.... more at the fact the GTS wasn't made available to the U.S. and the fact that other rapid growth markets are coming in to focus more (Russia and China) - and it seems they do want big heavy thunderous SUV's.
__________________
3/15 to i8, and everything in between (yep, even including the F26 and F45)
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2011, 08:10 AM   #46
mshab356
Go ///M or go home
mshab356's Avatar
United_States
7
Rep
745
Posts

 
Drives: a ///Monster
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Northern VA

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HBspeed View Post
What about the enthusiast or hardcore segment? You know the one where you offer an E92 M3 CSL or a 1M CSL for the United States.

You know that there is a market out there for a BMW M3 CSL and 1M CSL.

Why cater to enthusiasts as the brand once did, when you can instead develop strange ugly 2 door sporting SUV's for non-enthusiasts.

I'm really struggling to see any near future M product I can be even remotely looking forward to this side of the next generation M3 in what 3 years? In the next 3 years BMW is going to loose a lot of enthusiasts like me while BMW twiddles their thumbs and not give us the CSL cars of the current generation M cars for the meantime.
Blame the US's stupid crash safety requirements. It costs millions of dollars to redesign the crash safety requirements in cars from European standards to US standards. Thus, spending that money to sell such a small amount of vehicles (under 1000 probably) is not worth it from a financial perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by HBspeed View Post
What about the enthusiast or hardcore segment? You know the one where you offer an E92 M3 CSL or a 1M CSL for the United States.

You know that there is a market out there for a BMW M3 CSL and 1M CSL.

Why cater to enthusiasts as the brand once did, when you can instead develop strange ugly 2 door sporting SUV's for non-enthusiasts.

I'm really struggling to see any near future M product I can be even remotely looking forward to this side of the next generation M3 in what 3 years? In the next 3 years BMW is going to loose a lot of enthusiasts like me while BMW twiddles their thumbs and not give us the CSL cars of the current generation M cars for the meantime.
Because enthusiasts are 1% of the population. Everyone else is an average joe.
You nailed it. We are 1% of BMW's customers. That means, the other 99% of customers are what they are really thinking about more than us 1% because we alone cannot bring them the sales necessary to survive and expand. That's the job of the other 99%, and the more they're pleased and persuaded to buy new BMW products, the more BMW can fund projects like M3/1M CSL/CRT and others.
__________________
GONE 2011.5 SG E92 ///M3 6MT | CF kidney grills | IND SG painted side grills w/ tinted lenses | Painted bumper reflectors | TMS 90mm stud kit | Rear fog light mod | Active Autowerke exhaust |

Appreciate 0
      07-27-2011, 08:39 AM   #47
Frosty
Lieutenant Colonel
Frosty's Avatar
27
Rep
1,909
Posts

 
Drives: Ordered my E92 (7/10/06)
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Northern NJ

iTrader: (0)

...I dont know if I can get behind this.... ~Frost

__________________
.................................................. ....................
335i Coupe (6MT) (2007: 9/06 build, pre ordered, only owner): Space Grey / Black Leatherette / Grey Poplar trim / ZCW / ZSP / BMW assist w/ bluetooth / power rear shade / navi with iDrive / comfort access keyless entry /+homelink mirror/ 185,000+miles (Nov-25-2014)
.................................................. ......................
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2011, 08:41 AM   #48
Frosty
Lieutenant Colonel
Frosty's Avatar
27
Rep
1,909
Posts

 
Drives: Ordered my E92 (7/10/06)
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Northern NJ

iTrader: (0)

__________________
.................................................. ....................
335i Coupe (6MT) (2007: 9/06 build, pre ordered, only owner): Space Grey / Black Leatherette / Grey Poplar trim / ZCW / ZSP / BMW assist w/ bluetooth / power rear shade / navi with iDrive / comfort access keyless entry /+homelink mirror/ 185,000+miles (Nov-25-2014)
.................................................. ......................
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2011, 08:41 AM   #49
SCOTT26
Brigadier General
SCOTT26's Avatar
311
Rep
3,241
Posts

 
Drives: Frozen Dark Silver 30 Jahre
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: WORLDWIDE

iTrader: (0)

If you all want a Supercar? Come back on Friday and you will see what the Supercar of the future will be like. Especially in this era of sustainability.
__________________
Electrified
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2011, 08:50 AM   #50
Frosty
Lieutenant Colonel
Frosty's Avatar
27
Rep
1,909
Posts

 
Drives: Ordered my E92 (7/10/06)
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Northern NJ

iTrader: (0)

.....most who want a 'Supercar' would never buy one, I love seeing R8's as art... buy I wont buy one.

BMW is focusing on 'Sustainability", 'Efficiency" and a far reaching eco friendly premium VISION that will outlive all of us on this forum. As long as they do not continue to buy up other manufactures and become a VW, BWM (3rd best brand on the planet I believe) will be a powerhouse. Allowing it to create cars with 1-series and i-cars profits that will satisfy us all~Frost
__________________
.................................................. ....................
335i Coupe (6MT) (2007: 9/06 build, pre ordered, only owner): Space Grey / Black Leatherette / Grey Poplar trim / ZCW / ZSP / BMW assist w/ bluetooth / power rear shade / navi with iDrive / comfort access keyless entry /+homelink mirror/ 185,000+miles (Nov-25-2014)
.................................................. ......................
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2011, 08:59 AM   #51
esqu1re
Lieutenant Colonel
esqu1re's Avatar
23
Rep
1,858
Posts

 
Drives: M Coupe
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: East Coast

iTrader: (0)

I forgot they had that concept back in the day. I can definitely see a lot of that design in the old Z4 coupe. Cool post.
__________________


///M Coupe: RPI Scoop, OE Strut, CDV, Volk RE30, SS Brake Lines, Stromung Exhaust
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2011, 09:22 AM   #52
SCOTT26
Brigadier General
SCOTT26's Avatar
311
Rep
3,241
Posts

 
Drives: Frozen Dark Silver 30 Jahre
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: WORLDWIDE

iTrader: (0)

The problem is ,regarding CSL and GTS for the North American market is not only legislation and federalisation issues.
But also that US customers will not take a stripped out BMW devoid of luxury equipment. There is not enough customers to justify such a model.

I keep on repeating this.

As for the Xcoupe? It will not follow the design language from 2001. And if approved will be after 2015. The Range Rover Evoque comes first but the The litmus test for the Xcoupe making production is seeing how well the Porsche Cajun fares on the market.
Cajun is a 3dr Coupe in the same proposal as the Xcoupe.

If the Cajun does well , then the Xcoupe will come because it will be an entirely new segment , one that BMW could use to it's advantage.
__________________
Electrified
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2011, 09:45 AM   #53
Imola.ZHP
No car payments...
Imola.ZHP's Avatar
United_States
22
Rep
2,016
Posts

 
Drives: 2003 BMW 330i ZHP
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Mud Island, TN

iTrader: (0)

Send a message via AIM to Imola.ZHP Send a message via MSN to Imola.ZHP Send a message via Yahoo to Imola.ZHP
Obviously BMW is doing something right.

The days of cranking out 100,000 model T's is over people. The market now (and moreso in the future) is going to be all about niche vehicles. So, the more "fragmented" your lineup is, the more (overall) you will sell.

Get over it "enthusiasts" selling more and more "fragmented" vehicles helps to keep more pure "enthusiasts" cars in production as well. Especially with tightening fuel economy requirements.
__________________

Marcus
-- 330i ZHP
-- Build Date 03/03/03
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2011, 10:00 AM   #54
Augenbrauezug
Captain
Augenbrauezug's Avatar
16
Rep
657
Posts

 
Drives: mk6 GTI
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Denton

iTrader: (1)

I'd buy an x4 tomorrow. I love the x6 and x6m [don't hate until you've at least driven the damn thing!], but they are pricy.
__________________
Bimmer-less ATM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayKay335i View Post
Straight PIITB. Then eat dumplings.
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2011, 10:03 AM   #55
JasonCSU
Colonel
United_States
32
Rep
2,161
Posts

 
Drives: '08 135i, '03 WRX
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Denver, CO

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2003 Subaru WRX  [0.00]
1988 BMW 325is  [0.00]
2008 BMW 135i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJBimmer View Post
+1 ... I even felt this way when the X6 and X1 were introduced. The X6 shouldn't exist/should replace the X5. The X3 should embody the ideas of the X6 but in the 3-series spirit/size and the X1 is retarded.
How exactly is the X1 retarded when BMW can't build them fast enough to meet demand? The sales have proved that people want a small, nimble, SUV.
__________________
Delivered in Munich, broken in on the Nurburgring.
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2011, 10:12 AM   #56
Matski
Captain
Matski's Avatar
England
13
Rep
643
Posts

 
Drives: A slow BMW
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: England

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
The problem is ,regarding CSL and GTS for the North American market is not only legislation and federalisation issues.
But also that US customers will not take a stripped out BMW devoid of luxury equipment. There is not enough customers to justify such a model.

I keep on repeating this.
Well, if people truly want a track day toy I guess the M3 GT4 is always an option. From BMW-Motorsports website it looks like they've homolgated the GTS's Rear spoiler and front splitter on the GT4, and it only weights 1430kg....

Shame it costs 125,000 and is not street legal!
__________________
3/15 to i8, and everything in between (yep, even including the F26 and F45)
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2011, 10:16 AM   #57
JasonCSU
Colonel
United_States
32
Rep
2,161
Posts

 
Drives: '08 135i, '03 WRX
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Denver, CO

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2003 Subaru WRX  [0.00]
1988 BMW 325is  [0.00]
2008 BMW 135i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by erhanh View Post
They haven't made a mini-van yet. If you look what Scott says, the second BMW sees a "premium" mini-van market, they will make it. And be assured, they will make an M version of it as well.
Mercedes has already done that with their R class and subsequent AMG version of it.
__________________
Delivered in Munich, broken in on the Nurburgring.
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2011, 10:38 AM   #58
Faust
Private First Class
1
Rep
128
Posts

 
Drives: Vauxhall Calibra
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: London

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
If you all want a Supercar? Come back on Friday and you will see what the Supercar of the future will be like. Especially in this era of sustainability.
An i8/M1 successor to be shown? Shall we start drooling???!!!
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2011, 10:55 AM   #59
My E90
Captain
United_States
9
Rep
759
Posts

 
Drives: '13 E92 M3 6MT SSII
Join Date: May 2007
Location: South Floorida

iTrader: (2)

I like the idea of the X4, but the X-Coupe... not so much.

With all the new models and ideas coming out of BMW in the near future, I just hope that the company has the resources to continue making a great product while keeping an eye on the enthusiasts. Thank you for bring the 1M to market. This is proof that BMW hasn't forgotten its roots.
__________________
'13 M3 E92 SSII | 6MT | ZCP | ZPP | EPS | NAV | MPE | ED & PCD
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2011, 11:57 AM   #60
mshab356
Go ///M or go home
mshab356's Avatar
United_States
7
Rep
745
Posts

 
Drives: a ///Monster
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Northern VA

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Augenbrauezug View Post
I'd buy an x4 tomorrow. I love the x6 and x6m [don't hate until you've at least driven the damn thing!], but they are pricy.
THIS x 10000000000000000

Everyone bashes on the X6 and X6M because they are boxy, heavy, whatever. When you drive one, you'll completely change your mind. I felt the same when my father traded his 997 Turbo for one (a freaking Porsche!!! let alone a turbo model). I told him he was crazy for switching to that funky looking X6M. Then I drove it. That thing pulls just as hard as his Turbo did. Unbelievable car to drive, lots of fun (especially for an SAV)!! Moral: don't judge a book by its cover (nor a vehicle by its weight)

And as for this "supercar" coming on Friday... (about damn time they came out with a new M1/equivalent)
__________________
GONE 2011.5 SG E92 ///M3 6MT | CF kidney grills | IND SG painted side grills w/ tinted lenses | Painted bumper reflectors | TMS 90mm stud kit | Rear fog light mod | Active Autowerke exhaust |

Appreciate 0
      07-27-2011, 12:37 PM   #61
Erhan
Colonel
Erhan's Avatar
United_States
37
Rep
2,466
Posts

 
Drives: Cooper S
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Seattle

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonCSU View Post
Mercedes has already done that with their R class and subsequent AMG version of it.
True that. But Mercedes is also making SLS, and AMG Black cars, and they even did SLR... And they bring these in US too.. I always say, BMW can built any car they want, but any badge to any car they want. Just among the boring, ugly, fat cars just make 1 or 2 hard core sports car. It doesn't have to have a V12 engine. Just something like Z4MC... That's all I want. 1 sports car out of their 20 luxury boats.
__________________
2011 MINI Cooper S
previous cars: E92 M3, Z4MC, Z4 Roadster, E36 328 Sedan
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2011, 12:38 PM   #62
Erhan
Colonel
Erhan's Avatar
United_States
37
Rep
2,466
Posts

 
Drives: Cooper S
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Seattle

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mshab356 View Post
Blame the US's stupid crash safety requirements. It costs millions of dollars to redesign the crash safety requirements in cars from European standards to US standards. Thus, spending that money to sell such a small amount of vehicles (under 1000 probably) is not worth it from a financial perspective.
How does other companies do it?
__________________
2011 MINI Cooper S
previous cars: E92 M3, Z4MC, Z4 Roadster, E36 328 Sedan
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2011, 01:06 PM   #63
Matski
Captain
Matski's Avatar
England
13
Rep
643
Posts

 
Drives: A slow BMW
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: England

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
If you all want a Supercar? Come back on Friday and you will see what the Supercar of the future will be like. Especially in this era of sustainability.
I assume you mean this...

From www.bmwgroup.com

http://www.thomson-webcast.net/de/di...77&language=en
__________________
3/15 to i8, and everything in between (yep, even including the F26 and F45)
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2011, 01:12 PM   #64
Keto
Lieutenant Colonel
Keto's Avatar
United_States
21
Rep
1,585
Posts

 
Drives: F80 M3
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: WHO DAT NATION

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2015 BMW M3  [5.00]
Just got back from European delivery. Saw a few X5's on the roads of Germany/Italy/Austria, but many many many more X6's. Including a X6M. Weird. Perhaps the USA BMW enthusiast market is not the (mainland) Europe enthusiast market. Easiest example of this: Tons of Europeans driving sport wagons -- enthusiast wagons. Couldn't sell those here.

BMW doesn't listen to the forums because the forums are misleading. I remember when reading about the take rate of manual transmissions in the USA a BMW engineer lamented that the USA whines about needing manuals but doesn't buy them.

Dollars speak louder than forum posts.
__________________
2015 SO/SO MT M3 :: Exec : Lighting : Adaptive : HK : CF trim : Full leather : DAP : Black 19's : sunshade
Crystalline tint 40%/70% on windshield : M performance mirrors, spoiler, splitters, lip : RKP diffuser : Fully dechromed
Bavsound Stage 1 : V1 Savvy hardwired : Self-coded, will code locally for beer or food

Last edited by Keto; 07-27-2011 at 01:12 PM. Reason: spelling
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2011, 01:30 PM   #65
Matski
Captain
Matski's Avatar
England
13
Rep
643
Posts

 
Drives: A slow BMW
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: England

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by erhanh View Post
How does other companies do it?
Daimler AG's €97,000,000,000 vs BMW AG's €60,000,000,000 in revenue is probably a good place to start....


Actually, reading through both Daimler and BMW 2010 financial reports is fascinating... I may post more later!

Edit:

I took the following sales numbers from the BMW 2010 annual report... then sorted them by total sales...

Draw your own conclusions...


Edit 2: Sorry, I thought this might be relevant here just in case people were thinking that BMW was venturing into new 'pointless' segments or 'answering the question nobody asked'
__________________
3/15 to i8, and everything in between (yep, even including the F26 and F45)

Last edited by Matski; 07-27-2011 at 01:55 PM.
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2011, 02:13 PM   #66
JasonCSU
Colonel
United_States
32
Rep
2,161
Posts

 
Drives: '08 135i, '03 WRX
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Denver, CO

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2003 Subaru WRX  [0.00]
1988 BMW 325is  [0.00]
2008 BMW 135i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matski View Post
Interesting info. I bet most people wouldn't have thought the X6 had the same percentage of sales than the 3 series coupe.
__________________
Delivered in Munich, broken in on the Nurburgring.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:31 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST