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      07-17-2011, 11:26 PM   #1
Tonifyd
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Sealant fail..???

So I was bored...
Decided to go all out with a detail.

Even tho i swissvaxed the car about a month ago, I wasn\'t happy with the results so I decided id do it all over..

I don\'t have much experience, so I thought I\'d explore this weekend.

The process i chose was

1 Wash
2 Dry
3 Clay
4 Wash
5 Dry
6 Sealant
7 Wax.

After the sun set, I stopped at 6.
But fuck me. Now the car has microscratches in the same form that I applied the sealant. Wtf did I do wrong??
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      07-18-2011, 03:26 AM   #2
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What kind of sealant were you using?

You didn't polish after claying your car? I was always under the impression that clay causes micro-marring and that you should follow up with polish.
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      07-18-2011, 04:13 AM   #3
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Sealant doesn't make the scratches go away. Claying the car often can introduce slight marring and that is why you should always follow up claying with a polish using a buffer. When the paint is in great shape from the polish, you can THEN seal it.
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      07-18-2011, 04:20 AM   #4
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Ok so here is the full story.

First off some background info.

The car's full front has a clear bra.
The car has been treated with swissvax bleau weiss about a month ago (applied by me, which was the first time I ever waxed), but I didn't like the shine, and thought I must have done something wrong, so I decided to redo it today with a few more added steps.

Plans for today were:
Wash-Dry-Clay(new step)-Wash-sealant(new step)-wax

Given the fact that this car is only about 2 months old, and it has been clayed as a new car detail, the clay barely changed color.

I think this was entirely my fault.

Apparantly I applied too much pressure to apply the sealant.

I messed this up, by just using a microfiber towel, and applied it with my index finger with firm pressure. After doing a part of a panel, I looked at the towel point I was pressing with my finger, and it would be dark, so I moved to a different section of the towel. This should have been a huge alarm in my head, but I guess I wasn't thinking straight..

One thing I don't get is, if the clay didn't pick much up, why would the towel turn so dirty??

Another thing I noticed after the damage has been done, was that on the bottle (DUH) the instructions read to do it thinly, but no pressure, and two coats, by letting the first sit for 15 minutes, buff off, then apply the second 20 minutes later.

The guy at the store didn't mention this, and demonstrated with a micofiber towel, and his finger..

The sealant was Chemical Guys jet seal.



Well, what's done has been done, so now to fix...

Fortunately the front end with the clear bra did not show any scratches at all. I experimented with the trunk lid, where the damaged seems to be the most prominant.

The first three pictures show the damage.

Picture #4: Chemical guys ONE (waterless wash, clay, polish, seal wax all in one) was applied. As you can see a lot of the scratches has been hidden, and also gave the smoothest touch.

Pic #5: This was some paste wax they gave to me for free. Adam's something.. No change has been noticed.

Pic #6: Swissvax bleau weiss applied. I was suprised to see a great diminishing of the scratches, but under careful inspection, it's still visible. Also, this probably didn't get rid of the scratches, but just hid it under the wax.

Pic #7: swissvax cleaner fluid reapplied, then swissvax bleau weiss reapplied.

Judging by the outcome, it seems that reapplying cleaner fluid, then just reapplying swissvax gave the best results.

So here are my questions..

1. Considering that the cleaner fluid + swissvax gave the best results, should I even bother with the sealant?
->I ask this because supposedly sealant + wax gives a better shine, and lasts longer...? But then again since i'm using swissvax, should I just stick with one brand and their method without adding the sealant..???

2. Would the cleaner fluid reapplied get rid of the sealant on other panels?
3. Is it safe to reapply cleaner fluid only a month later from first application?
In their manual it said not to apply more than once a year...
4. I have driven about 80 miles after this. Should I use a quick detailer to get rid of the dust first? Rewash? Just do it?

Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks..
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      07-18-2011, 09:53 AM   #5
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As gthal said, waxes and "[s]ealant doesn't make the scratches go away". To get those slight scratches off the trunk, I would suggest that you use a fine polish (my personal preference is Menzerna PO85RD). First wash, clay, then use the polish. Once polished, wipe it down, then do a layer of wax. If you're going to use polish, I would recommend washing the car completely, rather than using quick detailer.

Using both wax and sealant is somewhat redundant, though there are some folks who do it. I would wax first before using a sealant, as wax will bond better with the car's clear coat over a layer of sealant.

Also, check out some of the detailing that FMINUS has documented in this forum. He uses a lot of Swissvax and I think his process and product selection will give you a good idea of what steps you should be taking to get the best out of Bleau Weiss.
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      07-18-2011, 11:29 AM   #6
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Wow what a mess! Sorry. Ok 1st go over to autopia and read everything you can about polishing and car detailing. 2nd you need a random orbit polisher PC, flex etc. Thats going to need some serious polishing to remove the marring and swirls on black. No offense but judging from what you've done so far I would bring the car to good detailer to remove the marring and swirls, and you just do maintenance wash, wax and or seal it from there. Talk to him/her so you learn what your doing, black can be tricky to keep swirl free. You also need to learn a good two bucket washing method, I bet a lot of that marring was induced both by improper washing/drying technique and the claying. As to the microfiber towel turning dark when you applied the sealant I doubt you are getting paint transfer. Did you go over any rubber trim by accident that could stain the towel? Properly washed and clayed car shouldn't have any thing left on the surface for the towel to pick up. Look at this post for an idea of what's involved in a proper detail. http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=558779

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      07-18-2011, 12:41 PM   #7
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Where you messed up is using a MF to apply the sealant. It was the MF, not the sealant that created the marring. Always use foam, foam absorbs the pressure and doesn't create marring. Foam apps are extremely cheap at any auto and online store.
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      07-18-2011, 12:58 PM   #8
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I don't have an orbital, I've never polished, and I can't afford a detail job right now.

The cleaner fluid supposedly gets rid of minor scratches, and it seemed to have done its job here.

Is it ok to use the cleaner fluid that frequently when it says dont use more than once a year?
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      07-18-2011, 02:25 PM   #9
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Sorry, I didn't realize you had Swissvax cleaner fluid, I had assumed you meant you were using something like a wax stripper. Swissvax cleaner fluid is essentially a polish (http://www.autoobsessed.com/shop/swi...ong-p-951.html), it comes in strong and medium. Correct me if i'm wrong, but shouldn't this be used before you apply the wax? The cleaner fluid may have marred your wax job. Also, if you have the heavy version, you may need to follow up with a finer polish.

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      07-18-2011, 03:15 PM   #10
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Sealant haze is what you're looking at. Glad to see the big issue here is something very fixable.

You're using intense lighting on a recently sealed car that you worked on later in the day. Sealants and waxes alike tend to look better after setting for a few days and especially after the first wash. Getting excess product / solvents removed should leave a slightly tighter finish that you'll find acceptable. Wait until the next time you wash her and have a second look. I'm willing to bet the "streaking" you're seeing will have gone away. Any little scratches are a whole other issue of course, but the main streaking / haze you're seeing shouldn't be an issue from here on out unless you apply another coat.

To reduce this from happening, make sure to apply as thin as humanly possible, allow plenty of time prior to "buffing" off the set sealant, and wait plenty of time prior to moving the car out into the sun. Even in the event you can't / don't do these things, after the first wash you should be good to go.

Happy detailing!
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      07-18-2011, 03:31 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuttGrunt View Post
Sealant haze is what you're looking at. Glad to see the big issue here is something very fixable.

You're using intense lighting on a recently sealed car that you worked on later in the day. Sealants and waxes alike tend to look better after setting for a few days and especially after the first wash. Getting excess product / solvents removed should leave a slightly tighter finish that you'll find acceptable. Wait until the next time you wash her and have a second look. I'm willing to bet the "streaking" you're seeing will have gone away. Any little scratches are a whole other issue of course, but the main streaking / haze you're seeing shouldn't be an issue from here on out unless you apply another coat.

To reduce this from happening, make sure to apply as thin as humanly possible, allow plenty of time prior to "buffing" off the set sealant, and wait plenty of time prior to moving the car out into the sun. Even in the event you can't / don't do these things, after the first wash you should be good to go.

Happy detailing!
Wow. That's a relief.. so it's not scratches, but just haze? And the picture shown above with the cleanerfluid used after the sealant haze(scratches) was just removing the sealant to make it looks haze(scratch) free?

In that case, what would be the next step I should take?

According to Jetseal 109, it says that I should apply two coats of sealant first.

I only have a single coat on I put yesterday, and stopped becaused of how it looked.

My plan was to apply the sealant, then the wax, but in your opinion, should I be doing this?

The cleaner fluid and wax that I have is cleaner fluid normal, and swissvax bleau weiss. In their process they do not mention any sealants, and only these two products should be used. If that's the case, should I even be bothering with the sealant?

That's why I was wondering if I should just use the cleaner fluid to take everything off, then just re apply the wax and be done with it..

My other concern is using the cleaner fluid too frequently. The swissvax manual says don't apply the cleaner fluid more than once a year. The car is only 3 months old, and I applied it the first month.
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      07-18-2011, 08:06 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuttGrunt View Post
Sealant haze is what you're looking at. Glad to see the big issue here is something very fixable.

You're using intense lighting on a recently sealed car that you worked on later in the day. Sealants and waxes alike tend to look better after setting for a few days and especially after the first wash. Getting excess product / solvents removed should leave a slightly tighter finish that you'll find acceptable. Wait until the next time you wash her and have a second look. I'm willing to bet the "streaking" you're seeing will have gone away. Any little scratches are a whole other issue of course, but the main streaking / haze you're seeing shouldn't be an issue from here on out unless you apply another coat.

To reduce this from happening, make sure to apply as thin as humanly possible, allow plenty of time prior to "buffing" off the set sealant, and wait plenty of time prior to moving the car out into the sun. Even in the event you can't / don't do these things, after the first wash you should be good to go.

Happy detailing!

You missed the part where he mentioned he applied with a Microfiber with firm pressure from 2 fingers :/ Hate to say it, but it's likely to be marring OP.
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      07-18-2011, 09:04 PM   #13
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bring it over one day and Ill help you get things right...hit me up
enviousdetailing@gmail.com Im in Huntington Beach

what you are seeing from the HAZE is exactly what Marc said

if you have scratches, its form the MF as a sealant CANNOT scratch the finish since it doesnt contain any abrasive properties, so it has to be from the application media. Autozone sells the foam applicators for like 75 cents or something like that, just go pick up one/two

you can try all the different wazes you want, but unless you polish the car, you are not really going to see a HUGE difference in the color. compounds remove defects, polishes remove light defects and boost the shine, depth, wetness from the paint, and wax is your protection
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      07-18-2011, 09:20 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonifyd View Post
Wow. That's a relief.. so it's not scratches, but just haze? And the picture shown above with the cleanerfluid used after the sealant haze(scratches) was just removing the sealant to make it looks haze(scratch) free?

In that case, what would be the next step I should take?

According to Jetseal 109, it says that I should apply two coats of sealant first.

I only have a single coat on I put yesterday, and stopped becaused of how it looked.

My plan was to apply the sealant, then the wax, but in your opinion, should I be doing this?

The cleaner fluid and wax that I have is cleaner fluid normal, and swissvax bleau weiss. In their process they do not mention any sealants, and only these two products should be used. If that's the case, should I even be bothering with the sealant?

That's why I was wondering if I should just use the cleaner fluid to take everything off, then just re apply the wax and be done with it..

My other concern is using the cleaner fluid too frequently. The swissvax manual says don't apply the cleaner fluid more than once a year. The car is only 3 months old, and I applied it the first month.
I do see a few scratches poking through, but the majority of what you're looking at is haze from the sealant (the way the light follows the direction of the wiping and such). Chances are the cleaner fluid was removing some or all of the sealant to take away haze. You could equally accomplish this by using alcohol or glass cleaner and I'm willing to bet you'll see something similar.

The next step is to take a second and CHILL. It's not the end of the world and it just happened recently and you already know it's not truly permanent. Wash your car as normal (using correct products / methods of course) and you'll find the finish to be much improved.

CG says to apply two layers to make sure you have proper even coverage without a bunch of low areas. In the same way Zaino markets: they make sure people do as much as possible to get good durability so that you speak highly of the product and your experience with it. Wait a couple of washes and apply another layer and you'll notice a similar result: especially on Jet Black which shows EVERYTHING.

My opinion? Use what you want. I know that not what people want to hear: they like to think a pro is going to share the Touch of Midas that gives them some magic result: you're time and energy in caring for your baby is what gives you the results you're looking for. Want to put wax over the 109? Go for it! JetSeal is a nice slick sealant and using your favorite 'nuba over it isn't a bad idea.

Yes you can use a sealant. Do you really think a big flashy brand like Swissvax is going to talk much about competing brands or products? No no no: they're going to tell you to use SV products exclusively for the best results possible. Part of that is they can't guarantee the quality or performance of any other product. Don't worry about the cleaner fluid: apply the wax directly over the JetSeal109.

I have no idea why SV says to only use the product once a year: probably to make you think it's results last a long time (to have you think it's a super-special product?). No idea. Don't worry about it so much. If you just want wax on your car, just use wax. If you just want sealant, just use sealant. If you want both, knock yourself out. I'd recommend using only one method for awhile so that when you make any changes, you can better assess if you truly like that protection style more or less.

Last but not least, as you're in SoCal, hit up Eric from Envious Detailing. Very knowledgeable and well respected in the detailing community across the country. Having a quality close-by professional available to give you their opinion is quite valuable as you can imagine.

Quote:
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You missed the part where he mentioned he applied with a Microfiber with firm pressure from 2 fingers :/ Hate to say it, but it's likely to be marring OP.
Oh I caught that, but the majority of what you can see if due to harsh bright light at an angle on a fresh layer of sealant. Notice there aren't any obvious pressure points being shown: you can't tell where the two fingers applied pressure. I'm not saying there's no marring, I'm just saying I can't see any obvious marring from application, and rather see normal streaking.
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      07-18-2011, 09:52 PM   #15
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Thanks everyone for your input.

My follow up questions to your input:

1. If I were to wax over the sealant that currently shows the haze, would the haze still go away even with a coat of wax on top of it?
2. If I were to just go the swissvax way without the sealant, should I use the cleaner fluid to get rid of all the sealant on the car?
3. Would it be a bad idea to do a few panels (maybe left/right) with one method, and the other half a different method??
4. While I was experimenting with the products I have, I tried reapplying the sealant with a MF sponge instead, and it seemed to apply a bit easier, and I took off most of the pressure I did with my finger. After a wipe, there was no haze. So maybe it was just the method I chose that caused the hazing to be that much more prominant?
5. If I were to wax over the sealant, should I still follow jetseal 109's instructions and do two coats?
6. As of now, it's been a full day already, so if I were to do ANY of these methods, do I need a full wash again, or will a quick detail spray be enough?
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      07-19-2011, 02:35 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonifyd View Post
Thanks everyone for your input.

My follow up questions to your input:

1. If I were to wax over the sealant that currently shows the haze, would the haze still go away even with a coat of wax on top of it?
2. If I were to just go the swissvax way without the sealant, should I use the cleaner fluid to get rid of all the sealant on the car?
3. Would it be a bad idea to do a few panels (maybe left/right) with one method, and the other half a different method??
4. While I was experimenting with the products I have, I tried reapplying the sealant with a MF sponge instead, and it seemed to apply a bit easier, and I took off most of the pressure I did with my finger. After a wipe, there was no haze. So maybe it was just the method I chose that caused the hazing to be that much more prominant?
5. If I were to wax over the sealant, should I still follow jetseal 109's instructions and do two coats?
6. As of now, it's been a full day already, so if I were to do ANY of these methods, do I need a full wash again, or will a quick detail spray be enough?
I tried doing the Swissvax over a sealant like Powerlock before. It doesn't work out well. Typically I get similar longevity from 2 coats of Swissvax as I do with 2 coats of Powerlock so depending on how lazy I am (Swissvax takes a lot more prep work so put on because in my experience, the cleaner fluid makes a big difference in the final result), I'll just do one or the other but never both.
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      07-19-2011, 02:46 PM   #17
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Quote:
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I tried doing the Swissvax over a sealant like Powerlock before. It doesn't work out well. Typically I get similar longevity from 2 coats of Swissvax as I do with 2 coats of Powerlock so depending on how lazy I am (Swissvax takes a lot more prep work so put on because in my experience, the cleaner fluid makes a big difference in the final result), I'll just do one or the other but never both.
could you please elaborate on how it did not work well?

When you say two coats of siwssvax, do you just apply one layer, buff out, then apply the next layer right after?

doesn't the sealant add more protection and shine?
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      07-19-2011, 03:09 PM   #18
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Quote:
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could you please elaborate on how it did not work well?

When you say two coats of siwssvax, do you just apply one layer, buff out, then apply the next layer right after?

doesn't the sealant add more protection and shine?
With other sealants and waxes, yes. The sealants typically last longer than carnauba waxes but in general, do not give the same amount of depth and shine so people were trying to get the best of both worlds by combining them. I have tried applying Blau Weiss over Powerlock and it seemed like the Blau Weiss just wouldn't cure. I just couldn't get rid of the hazing even after giving it 6-12 hours of cure time (Swissvax suggests 3 hours curing and then another wipe down to remove hazing). It seemed like I was just smearing the uncured wax around. I have asked others in my area who have tried it with other sealants and they had the same results with Swissvax.

When I apply 2 layers, I usually apply one, wipe off, wait at least 3 hours, and then apply the second and wipe off. After wiping off the second coat, wait at least 3 hours, and then wipe off any hazing visible.

Enivronment could play a huge role in how this all works out. I live in a high humidity climate so cure times tend to be longer. I don't get anywhere near the one year that is suggested by Swisswax because of the harsh environment (high humidity, UV, and salt year round). My car is parked outside during the day so it get the direct sun for about 10 hours a day. I also wash weekly so that affects longevity quite a bit.
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      07-19-2011, 09:45 PM   #19
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try wiping the car down with distilled water and a MF towel about an hour after wiping off the sealant from the car.

My process for some help:

polish car
wipe off polish
chemical guys ezcream car
wipe off CGEZC
apply BFWD (sealant)
vacuum interior
condition leather
apply 303 to interior
clean door jambs with QD
apply tire dressing
FINALLY wipe off the sealant for the first time. This amount of work between first applying to the car and wiping it off allows a good amount of cure time for it to bond to the paint. Once I wipe it off, Ill hit the exhaust tips, clean the glass inside and out, load up the car with my supplies, and then recheck the car. Sometimes the sealant will haze or sweat so I will re-wipe the car with a MF. Ive tried to wipe it with a QD in the past, but it seems to "overload" the paint with oils. A glass cleaner wipe down would be ok to use sparingly as well as too much and it will act like alcohol and strip the wax. ( I used it the other day before opticoat application, worked better than IPA as it didnt look like it was drying out the paint on a jet black mercedes)
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      07-19-2011, 09:48 PM   #20
Tonifyd
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OK.

just finished with cleaner fluid and wiped everything clean. No more sealant on the car, and the haze that I showed you earlier is now all gone.

I'm just gonna stick with swissvax for now, and conclude that my dislike of the result last time was because of my mistake. I'll apply the wax tonight, let it sit in the sun for a few hours tomorrow, then go home, wipe down the haze again, then take some pics.
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      07-20-2011, 09:13 AM   #21
MuttGrunt
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So you stripped it off?

Should have left it and just washed it and it would have been fine. Now you'll have to deal with the same thing from a carnuaba plus the added headache of using a high carnauba content wax that'll likely sweat on your black car - even days later. The biggest issue here I see is you're looking for some magical easy way out that gives you perfect results instantly. It doesn't work like that. Learning to work with the great products you have an are using will be of a much bigger benefit.

My same advice I gave you for the JetSeal now applies to the wax you're going to use. It's going to look better a week later after you wash it. There's no way around that.
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      07-20-2011, 07:20 PM   #22
Richie Carbone
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Let me get this straight:

You own a 58K+ car and didn't have the cash to pay a professional to do it right?

If that's the case it seems you are over extending yourself.

There's a reason why people don't perform their own brain surgey.
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