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      07-08-2011, 09:40 AM   #67
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      07-08-2011, 09:48 AM   #68
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x3m = perfect wife's car.
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      07-08-2011, 10:15 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matski View Post
Well, technically the car that is robbing the M badge of its exclusivity is the M3 as it's by far the biggest seller. I have yet to see either an X5 or X6M on the road.

Personally, I don't mind the idea of X3M or X1M, I'm sure they'd both be a hoot to drive, so long as the money is re-invested in producing a bonkers version of the M6
I think in England/Europe, people are more practical than say US/Canada. From my trip earlier this year, I didn't see much SUV's, or big cars. People still buy their BMW's and Mercedes, but they're diesel 3er's and 5er's, C/E-Class. Here In Toronto, I've seen quite a few X5/X6M's. So unless there's a mysterious diesel M car, I doubt you'll see any increases of these M cars.

But in terms of M SAV/SUV's, I think if there were one you could look at and say it makes the most sense, it would be the X3 and maybe X1 (I haven't seen or driven one so I can't comment on the feel of it). Sure the X3 has grown a bit in size but it's not as big as the X5. The X3 looks like the perfect balance of performance and utility.
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      07-08-2011, 10:15 AM   #70
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X1M is a great car too
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      07-08-2011, 10:24 AM   #71
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BMW is ruining the ///M brand.
Well it's their brand and they can do what they want with it. BMW is business not an idea.
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      07-08-2011, 11:21 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jblack4083 View Post
This is funny because at the beginning of his post he clarified that BMW is going to use these "volume sellers" as a means to an end. In order to get cars like an M3 CSL, M3 CRT, 1M / M2, and other "special" editions that won't really produce any profit for the M division, BMW needs to have these cars that go against the philosophy but make a lot of money. Everyone knows the X5M and X6M are not track cars but in a sense souped up SUVs. I'd rather the M division be profitable AND able to kick out competition killer cars with innovative concepts than to not have M SAVs. As sad as it sounds...

If you people ran BMW M the division would go broke within 1 year... You guys have no idea what it takes to run a business.
Yes, this is really the same reason that Porsche decided to produce the Cayenne.
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      07-08-2011, 11:30 AM   #73
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You beat me to it!
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      07-08-2011, 11:32 AM   #74
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By the advent of M-One and M-Two . BMW M will have a strategic advantage over the competition because BMW will be in mass volume production of CFRP.
Currently the focus is on BMWi and the start-up for the sub-brand.

Projections put forward estimate that M-One and M-Two could use CFRP more extensivesly than our competitors because it will be entirely cost-effective to do so.
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      07-08-2011, 11:42 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
By the advent of M-One and M-Two . BMW M will have a strategic advantage over the competition because BMW will be in mass volume production of CFRP.
Currently the focus is on BMWi and the start-up for the sub-brand.

Projections put forward estimate that M-One and M-Two could use CFRP more extensivesly than our competitors because it will be entirely cost-effective to do so.
Thanks Scott. Is BMW ready to talk about repairs to CFRP and how that process will compare to something like Audi's ASF repair challenges and a single repair facility in the US? Perhaps this is better addressed in a different thread?
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      07-08-2011, 12:16 PM   #76
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So an X3M and an ///M3 will officially have the same engine? AND YOU ARE GOING TO GIVE IT TO THE X VERSION FIRST, not the ///M3?!?!?! HAHAHAH.....this is so entertaining. Why? Because of the ridiculousness of it, like the way you cannot turn away from a bad reality show. The members of the cast think people are laughing with them, when in reality, they are laughing AT THEM. Lets go over the core tenants of BMW ///M as little as 10 years ago that they have dumped:

1) "Nien" to the concept of having a FI engine.
2) High Revving Engines: saying something is does not make it so. Sorry, 7,200 on the new ///M5 is not high revving. Just like slapping an ///M3 badge on the back of an Accord does not make it faster.
3) "You can not build one engine to fit all cars"----straight from BMW when they took shots at Merc and their AMG division.

It's a complete and utter joke what they have done to the ///M line. Its not different then any other line. Its just another AMG, SRT, TRD, or S knockoff. Yup, they are just like everyone else: slap some badges, a big engine and some suspension and let her rip. I could even deal with the ///M5 going FI, because in reality, a high strung car is not what people buying that type of car want, they need it to be able to be an executive sedan at times. So I get that; why I think the comparison to the e39 ///M5 is spot on as that masterpiece was a lot less high strung then the e60. But to continue to take one engine to fit multiple cars? They are tearing the souls out of the cars, and whoreing out the brand for the new and ultimate tenant:

1) Make money, regardless of what it takes.

Funning thing about brand marketing, once you have a strong brand you can use it to sell anything. However, if you dilute that brand, and associate it with things not as great as those used to build the brand, in the long run the brand will begin to suffer IRREPARABLE damage as what it was formerly associated with is forgotten.

What made the ///M line so special was beyond specs, beyond the numbers, similar to what makes Porsche and Ferrari special. No, I'm not comparing, just pointing out that its what made ///Ms special. When you get rid of that "soul" and that "individuality" you destroy what makes the "line" of cars special. Take away Derek Jeter's "intangibles" and he is not the player everyone, even Yankee haters, have come to know him to be.

BMW is forcing ///M to dump the "intangibles" and I for one hope that BMW falls flat on its face just so the whole lot of us who HELP BUILD BWM TO WHAT IT IS TODAY can laugh and say "we told you so......you can't say we didn't tell you." Corporate greed is associated with ruining people's lives at times, our economy and environment, but its harder to see the other casualty of greed: the transformation of great companies into average ones.

Cheers,
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Last edited by e46e92love; 07-08-2011 at 12:23 PM.
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      07-08-2011, 12:28 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert_Fox View Post
X3M and X1M? The sound of that makes some people cringe, but then again way back, long ago, in a time where BMW didn't make SAV's, the thought of any non-car BMW was blasphemy. You cant make everyone happy, but you should always try to make your shareholders satisfied. If selling these vehicles will generate more profits, then this will very well make some people happy to the point they are deaf to those complaining. I suppose more the merrier, atleast everyone can find a BMW they like??
I come from the investment baking world, and this comment sums up why the markets are beyond volatile, why too many companies "FAIL" and commit "FRAUD". The bottom line is not the only line.....how many times do we all have to learn that the hard way

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      07-08-2011, 12:32 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jblack4083 View Post
This is funny because at the beginning of his post he clarified that BMW is going to use these "volume sellers" as a means to an end. In order to get cars like an M3 CSL, M3 CRT, 1M / M2, and other "special" editions that won't really produce any profit for the M division, BMW needs to have these cars that go against the philosophy but make a lot of money. Everyone knows the X5M and X6M are not track cars but in a sense souped up SUVs. I'd rather the M division be profitable AND able to kick out competition killer cars with innovative concepts than to not have M SAVs. As sad as it sounds...

If you people ran BMW M the division would go broke within 1 year... You guys have no idea what it takes to run a business.
///M had no issues running a profit when they just did ///M3 & ///M5, and my bet is with a 1M, M3 & M5, they would make plenty of money.

Finally, be careful of the judgmenet you pass on what it does and does not take to run a business. I have colleagues worth 9 figures from their businesses who stick to core tenants, and don't leave them to make an extra buck because of the LONG TERM damage they know it can have on their brand and company's reputation, which at this point, is as important the biggest contributor to ever growing leads and sales.

Cheers,
e46e92
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      07-08-2011, 12:37 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blipit View Post
Of course M-division is standalone. But if you think BMW doesn't pump money into to it, then you are sorely mistaken.

M-division survived almost 40 years without the need for M-suvs and watering down of the brand.

Its funny you guys are eating this marketing BS right up.
+1....thank you.

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      07-08-2011, 01:04 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
So an X3M and an ///M3 will officially have the same engine? AND YOU ARE GOING TO GIVE IT TO THE X VERSION FIRST, not the ///M3?!?!?! HAHAHAH.....
Sure, they did it with the X5/6M, its the same engine with a couple tweaks in the new M5, its their new way of testing the engine on SUVs before putting them in the hard core markets of the M3/M5. If buying the future M3 you should be happy BMW is doing this, you will be getting an engine that has already been tested in the wild and improved on like the M5 is.

I think people are just mad because with AWD the X3M will probably tie the new M3 in most real world stop light starts, the AWD will just put the power to the road easier and if there is any trace of wet it will blow away the M3, plus you never know what kind of enhancements the X3M driver might have made to a tri-turbo engine, could easily get 500 HP safely. and no M3 driver wants to be beaten by a big X3,
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      07-08-2011, 01:34 PM   #81
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Sure, they did it with the X5/6M, its the same engine with a couple tweaks in the new M5, its their new way of testing the engine on SUVs before putting them in the hard core markets of the M3/M5. If buying the future M3 you should be happy BMW is doing this, you will be getting an engine that has already been tested in the wild and improved on like the M5 is.

I think people are just mad because with AWD the X3M will probably tie the new M3 in most real world stop light starts, the AWD will just put the power to the road easier and if there is any trace of wet it will blow away the M3, plus you never know what kind of enhancements the X3M driver might have made to a tri-turbo engine, could easily get 500 HP safely. and no M3 driver wants to be beaten by a big X3,
I see M3 4WD happening near future. AKA M3X vs X3M LOL!
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      07-08-2011, 02:04 PM   #82
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Of course BMW are only more than happy with the X5 and X6 M because they have opened the door in new markets for BMW.
This is coming from someone working at BMW. M=Marketing. Can anyone disagree?
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      07-08-2011, 02:05 PM   #83
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LOL, No sh*t.

What other M-car besides the M3 could sell more units than the X5M/X6M in that time frame?

E60 M5 was no longer being produced.
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      07-08-2011, 02:17 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
///M had no issues running a profit when they just did ///M3 & ///M5, and my bet is with a 1M, M3 & M5, they would make plenty of money.

Finally, be careful of the judgmenet you pass on what it does and does not take to run a business. I have colleagues worth 9 figures from their businesses who stick to core tenants, and don't leave them to make an extra buck because of the LONG TERM damage they know it can have on their brand and company's reputation, which at this point, is as important the biggest contributor to ever growing leads and sales.

Cheers,
e46e92
After reading all your posts I wouldn't be surprised if you said "making money doesn't matter" . I don't understand why people who would never buy an ///M SAV are so concerned with the ///M SAVs and BMW's marketing decisions.

At the end of the day they're going to make an amazing car that you love which will probably be the ///M3. Is that not enough for you? Are we afraid that our "status" of owning an ///M car is going to decrease? Regardless of whatever BMW ///M does you will still have that car whether they use "volume seller" cars to fund the new technology in it or not.

My point is... As long as they have a product in their range that suits you perfectly, you have no reason to be so upset over their other products. They're always going to make cars that get nothing but amazing reviews and kill the competition even if they also have cars in their lineup that go against their traditional philosophies.
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      07-08-2011, 02:26 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Jblack4083 View Post
After reading all your posts I wouldn't be surprised if you said "making money doesn't matter" . I don't understand why people who would never buy an ///M SAV are so concerned with the ///M SAVs and BMW's marketing decisions.

At the end of the day they're going to make an amazing car that you love which will probably be the ///M3. Is that not enough for you?
Are we afraid that our "status" of owning an ///M car is going to decrease? Regardless of whatever BMW ///M does you will still have that car whether they use "volume seller" cars to fund the new technology in it or not.

My point is... As long as they have a product in their range that suits you perfectly, you have no reason to be so upset over their other products. They're always going to make cars that get nothing but amazing reviews and kill the competition even if they also have cars in their lineup that go against their traditional philosophies.
Don't agree. Sure they can make any car they want. They can put M badge on a pencil sharpener if they want. But they're not only making M SUVs. The whole company's attitude towards the M brand is shifting from what M used to be to what AMG is now. That, is the problem.
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      07-08-2011, 04:14 PM   #86
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Its understandable to have an affinity for the brand, as we all do. Of course you would want to see it stick by certain principles.

But still... If they produce the perfect car for you, how can you be upset. If these ///M SAVs are just a means to an end, sign me up. At least ill be sure that whatever profits they score off the volume sellers can help a halo car be available to me.
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      07-08-2011, 04:16 PM   #87
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Scott,

If your boys at BMW M are going to make M SAVs, then at least make them special.

I look at the X6M and X5M and see tacky bolt-on body cladding.

The wheels look small.

The seats do not look sporting or like from an M car...completely flat.

The engines and brakes belong in cars that weigh 1,000 lb less.

...and the worst part...the transmission. Do we get a 6 speed manual? Nope. How about a 7 speed DSG? Nope. Okay, at least the new 8 speed automatic? NO??!! We get the old 6 speed automatic for a $100k cutting edge vehicle?

I like the rumors about a 450 hp triturbo M3 and 340 hp biturbo M2. New M2 sketches look awful...stick with the 1M look please.

How about something more interesting than M SAVs? How about a 400 hp M340d performance Diesel? Or a 80 mi/gal 116de Diesel-electric hybrid?





Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
X Marks the Spot. BMW X3M and BMW X1M.

"X" Marks the Spot.

The BMW X3M and BMW X1M.

BMW M always encourages debate. And there is no other form of debate than BMW M's inclusion of a BMW X5M and BMW X6M. M SAV's? . The idea that the scared M division could bring out something as blasthemous as a High Performance SAV was unthinkable , even after the dust has settled - The debate continues.

Because BMW went back on their philosophy and their word enthusiasts become notably upset.

But, as former head of M Dr. Kay Segler - explained "No Dogmas" that also covers the SAV/SAC , Turbo charging etc,etc,etc.

Of course BMW are only more than happy with the X5 and X6 M because they have opened the door in new markets for BMW.

In BMW's terms for M Division - BMW X5M and BMW X6M are considered to be "volume sellers". Why?

Given BMW M sales per model is in the early thousands, X5M and X6M are secondary to the BMW M3 Coupe in global sales. BMW X5M and BMW X6M have also allowed BMW to gain a foothold in key strategic markets such as China, Russia and the Middle-East where both concepts are highly popular. In China for example X6M is sought by younger customers and in some cases sales are mainly of the female demographic. This has led BMW M to be considered as a "Youthfull" brand in China as a majority of M customers start from an early age, compared to other key markets where the figures are for the majority - forty-plus.

Given the response to M products in China. The region is earmaked for continuous growth, more specific "M" dealerships such as like Munich Motors in Singapore to enhance the appeal of the BMW sub-brand. One such model is the recently spied X6 High Performance model. Which will receive a power boost and some technical changes to the standard car but not be overly crazy in the power department as it is crazy enough.

This X6M is all about furthering the appeal of the X6M so some visual changes occur, new wheels and most significantly some weight reduction with minor body panels and interior parts.

Given that X6 (technically) is a Coupe, albeit a Sport Activity Coupe. The car could hypothetically be called CSL. You could say for the BMW X6M - The best is about to come.

Now that BMW want BMWM to be more of a sub-brand following BMWi in products and in some cases in key markets separate sales networks the expansion begins to support that idea.

Given that not everybody can afford the BMW X5M and BMW X6M. BMW are keen to stretch the M SAV line with two models to become "Volume Sellers" moreso than the X5 and X6.


Step forward the BMW X3M and BMW X1M.

The old adage "Anything is Possible" can be applied to BMW M as they have stated that any BMW becoming an M model is possible which is why given the popularity of the SAV's that BMW have given M the go-ahead to bring forth both Premium Mid-size and Premium Compact High Performance SAV's.

BMW X3M

What would be the benefits of the X3M to say, the X5M?

Weight for example... The difference between the X3 and X5M is 1,397 , Now that BMW M are expanding on a theme of lightness not only what is above the body but below the body. The target against the X5M is to be around 1200 pounds lighter. The new range of engines BMW have developed are designed to be very light and the engine for the X3M will not be so different. X3M will spearhead the introduction of a high tech six cylinder turbo-charged powerplant which to say the media rumours are exact. This engine will also find it's way into the next generation M3 family albeit with higher power output. Although the M3 will not receive the X3M's automatic transmission.

The aerodynamic packet of the X3M is not too disfamiliar from the M-Sport but receives are more curved aeropacket similar to the BMW M5 the central intake is very shallow but surrounded by larger twin brake vents. Wheelarches at the front and rear use the character of the X3 to add some mass to the flanks whilst at the rear a central diffuser surrounds the quad exhausts. The rear bumpers also include smaller vents at each corner which is more visual to help break up the larger bumper of the car.

Inside the additional M elements are expected - figure hugging sports seats and a unique combination of color and trim.

BMW X1M

The BMW X1 is currently europe's best selling SA, not only is it selling as fast as it is built. Customers are still on waiting lists and US customers have to wait until 2012 in North America because the X1 been postponed because of the demand for the X1 in Europe. BMW launched the X1 in Europe in November 2009. BMW are rapidly approaching the 200,000 unit of X1 which goes to show the popularity of the new X1.

An M variant of the X1 has always been considered when and if the car's establishment period (which is two years from market launch) has borne success. Now that the car has been established BMW are moving forward not only on the X1M but also the next generation of BMW X1.

The X1M will be a short production model of around two years but is expected to be the trailblazer for the successor to the BMW 1er M coupe. The BMW M2.

Now that the plaudits and enthusiasts have nothing but great things to say about the 1M Coupe - The next generation has been given more time and more budget where the jury is still out whether the M2 can recapture that essence of the 1M with more money and time behind it?

Like the BMW X3M and the next M3, X1M will be the foundation for the next M2 which with the M3 resorting to Six Cylinders. The BMW M2 moves down to four cylinders but will still be the most powerful engine ahead of the 135i/235i.

The X1 has been tested with the N54 found within the 1M, but with emission legislations in some countries bringing it's lifecycle to a close , BMW M have been working on the latest BMW twin power turbo four cylinder which has been tested in a X1.

Senior BMW executives drove a prototype X1 which were an old Vermillion Red and Marakesh Brown press car but heavily modified. The lower part of the front aerodynamic package was removed , the track was wider and at the rear stood two large exhausts, inside the fairly standard interior had no decorative transmission tunnel - The shifter was there but you could see the inner workings of the transmission. The four cylinder is in experimental stage and has a slightly higher output of the 1M and about as exact as the E46 M3. (343BHP). Again BMW are holding back on power mainly for the reasons of affordability and of course M2 will be the entry BMW M model but there will be opportunity to progress the car further.

In terms of design of the X1M only sketches are available but the X1's notably apparent side sculptureallows great inspiration for the design team. The wheelarches at the front bulge out in a similair fashion to how BMW achieved the front end look for the 1M. The back also follows the same idea it gives a more pumped up look and adds scope to the wheel arches.

The areodynamics packet takes it's ideas from the 1M especially at the front , although not entirely in-your-face aggressive but, recognisable as an M.

BMW X4
Originally planned to be based off the F25 , X4 ran into some problems regarding packaging that it became less viable , interior space became compromised. what has happened now is that BMW have a new modular platform that will underpin the next generation X5 and X6 and will also be used for the next generation X3. After the X5 and X6 are launched the platform will be the underpinnings for the BMW X4 - This will allow X4 to become an even more individual model from the X3 in overall appearance.


BMW X2
Whilst the X4 is compromised using the F20/F25/F30 modular architecture. This proposed model is not. BMW X2 will if given the go-ahead BMW's Range Rover Evoque and Porsche Cajun Challenger.
It is basically a modernised version of the BMW Xcoupe Concept from 2001. 3drs only as will the Evoque will offer and the Cajun. The X2 takes place of the X4 for the time being. But is more of a coupe in the vein of the original concept rather than a dynamic SUV. But more attuned to the 3dr Coupe of the Cajun. Could be interesting...

Of course the debate continues but in order for BMW M to expand it's direction as a sub-brand it needs models like the BMW X3M and BMW X1M to continue to provide the means to do so. The BMW X-M's have their supporters and their detractors. But you cannot deny that the High Performance SAV's have been good for the BMW M Division bottom line and it's integration into new markets.
With X3M and X1M it is about offering the best high performance mid-sized and compact SAV on the market. The potential is there for both the X1M and X3M .
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      07-08-2011, 05:27 PM   #88
kc_skyrider
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"But I paid too much for my M3, it's bad enough a 1er with $2,000 in mods can smoke my car but now everyone can have an M"....
Grow up the R&D from other platforms will only further the M3 the only thing watering down the M brand is the over 40's guys that buy it for the name and never really drive it. The worst thing about AMG are all the retirees coasting down the passing lane in one. I dislike mitsubishi and subaru, but if BMW Motorsport innovated at the same pace that brought the impreza and lancer to the level of STI and EVO then the M1 would be taking out 977's and the M3 would be close behind zondas. In summary, good for them.
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