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      07-07-2011, 03:16 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sameh View Post
Guys, I'm not the most tech savvy guy here but whenever E9x weight issue comes up (too frequently I say) I always wonder, why do you mostly look at the weight as opposed to
Track records
Power/wt ratio
Overall performance

Usain Bolt is heavier than Florence Griffith-Joyner but faster. E9x is heavier than E36 but faster, so what's the big deal. Why would you compare the weight of a V8 to a V6 to start with?
Would any of you complain if BMW gave us a new M3 that is 100lb heavier than E92 but V10 and 600HP??
I don't get it
I understand that you would want to have the same car lighter to extract more power/wt and end up with faster time but then where does it end, remove all seats but driverís, donít order EDC, NAV, AC, power seat, etc but how many of us on that forum would buy such a car? Go drive a Lotus if thatís what youíre looking for.
Actually I would complain. Weight is the enemy of any performance characteristic of a car - acceleration, braking, turning, fuel economy. The higher the weight of the car will mean you need larger brakes, wider tires, bigger radiators (to cool the bigger engine), and on and on... Give me a 2500lb (I can dream, lol) car with 300hp over a 5000lb car with 500hp.

So much time and money goes into developing systems to cope with larger, heavier, more powerful cars - those resources would be much better devoted to making the cars lighter (but still incorporating necessary safety features and conveniences that most car buyers want.) The problem is that for most people "lighter" is not going to sell cars to the average slob out there. Marketing folks all want to quote higher horsepower and faster acceleration because that is what sells most people. I think this will change over time as gas prices stay high (and probably continue to go up). If BMW were smart it would lead the way on mainstreaming the benefits of lighter weight (both inside and outside of M Division.) Their pursuit of CFRP technologies seems to be going in the right direction.
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      07-07-2011, 03:19 PM   #24
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Some say heavy cars on the track are slower but top gear track record shows that bugatti is faster than Ariel Atom
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      07-07-2011, 03:36 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by christopherchenm View Post
Some say heavy cars on the track are slower but top gear track record shows that bugatti is faster than Ariel Atom
Ever hear about power to weight ratio? It takes 1000hp for the $1M Veyron to best the $50-$60k Ariel Atom which by the way is incidentally more fun to drive around the track.
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      07-07-2011, 03:39 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by christopherchenm View Post
Some say heavy cars on the track are slower but top gear track record shows that bugatti is faster than Ariel Atom
Yes but that's like comparing apples to hotdogs...
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      07-07-2011, 03:40 PM   #27
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id still have the veyron
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      07-07-2011, 03:43 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by checkmate View Post
Ever hear about power to weight ratio? It takes 1000hp for the $1M Veyron to best the $50-$60k Ariel Atom which by the way is incidentally more fun to drive around the track.
Yes i know but the track time proves that , i just cant understand. Bugatti weights 4,486 lb while the Ariel Atom weights only 1300lb . Look at the top gear track time. Heavier the car is, more traction you got

1:15.1 – Ariel Atom 500
1:16.8 – Bugatti Veyron SS
1:17.1 – Gumpert Apollo
1:17.3 – Ascari A10
1:17.6 – Koenigsegg CCX (with Top Gear Wing)
1:17.7 – Noble M600 (cold)
1:17.8 – Pagani Zonda Roadster F Clubsport
1:17.9 – Caterham Seven R500 (cold tyres)
1:18.3 – Bugatti Veyron
1:18.4 – Pagani Zonda F
1:18.9 – Maserati MC12
1:19.0 – Lamborghini Murciťlago LP670-4 SuperVeloce
1:19.0 – Enzo Ferrari
1:19.1 – Ferrari 458 Italia
1:19.5 – Lamborghini Gallardo LP560-4
1:19.5 – Porsche 997 GT2
1:19.5 – Ariel Atom 2 300
1:19.7 – Nissan GT-R
1:19.7 – Ferrari 430 Scuderia
1:19.8 – Lamborghini Murciťlago LP640
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      07-07-2011, 03:47 PM   #29
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Engineering and active suspensions and electronic this and that can help compensate for weight (but also add weight themselves). See the portly GT-R and EVO X as an example. With that said, the same technology in a lighter car will be nimbler. Downside is driving feel and excitement as you let the computer do a lot of the driving. Depends what you care about. That extra 10 mph to 60, that extra 0.05G of lateral grip, or driving feel. Obviously, I'm speaking in generalities, but you get the point.
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      07-07-2011, 03:51 PM   #30
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Well this got off-topic.
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      07-07-2011, 05:00 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoobe View Post
Keep in mind all cars are far heavier now than they were. Most of that is due to saftey standards, some of it is due to increased wheelbase (length and width), more tech toys, computers and the associated wiring, sound insulation, air bag modules, etc.

But expect to see some trending to lighter cars with the introduction of carbon plastics which have the strength of steel, lightness of plastic, and can actually be easily repaired unlike carbon fiber. Also expect more aluminum construction.
Market and governmental demands make for larger and heavier cars, and since the M cars are based on standard platforms, they suffer from the same problem.

The only cars that seem to be able to get around this are the exotics - and the Vettes, of course.

However, we're already starting to see new models shedding a bit of weight compared to their immediate forbears, mostly due to metallurgy. I say thumbs up!

Bruce

Last edited by bruce.augenstein@comcast.; 07-07-2011 at 05:21 PM.
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      07-07-2011, 05:18 PM   #32
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bigger dick.
end thread
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      07-07-2011, 05:19 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sameh View Post
Guys, I'm not the most tech savvy guy here but whenever E9x weight issue comes up (too frequently I say) I always wonder, why do you mostly look at the weight as opposed to
Track records
Power/wt ratio
Overall performance

Usain Bolt is heavier than Florence Griffith-Joyner but faster. E9x is heavier than E36 but faster, so what's the big deal. Why would you compare the weight of a V8 to a V6 to start with?
Would any of you complain if BMW gave us a new M3 that is 100lb heavier than E92 but V10 and 600HP??
I don't get it
I understand that you would want to have the same car lighter to extract more power/wt and end up with faster time but then where does it end, remove all seats but driverís, donít order EDC, NAV, AC, power seat, etc but how many of us on that forum would buy such a car? Go drive a Lotus if thatís what youíre looking for.
You make a decent point, as the current car is clearly the best overall M3 yet.

However, and overall, smaller and lighter makes for more fun to drive. There don't appear to be any exceptions to this rule.

Under some circumstances, you can clearly feel the extra size and girth of the current car compared to the E46, and the same is true when comparing the E46 to the E36, and that car compared to the E30.

Using your logic, a 2500 pound M3 with 300 HP will have similar performance to a 5000 pound M3 with 600 HP. That's more or less true, but I guarantee you that, given similar engineering largesse, the 2500 pound car will absolutely feel more nimble in everyday driving - and definitely put more of a grin on your face in the twisties.

Bruce
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      07-07-2011, 05:37 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Using your logic, a 2500 pound M3 with 300 HP will have similar performance to a 5000 pound M3 with 600 HP. That's more or less true, but I guarantee you that, given similar engineering largesse, the 2500 pound car will absolutely feel more nimble in everyday driving - and definitely put more of a grin on your face in the twisties.

Bruce
And a lot cheaper to run too, from gas to tires to brakes.
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      07-07-2011, 06:05 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.
Using your logic, a 2500 pound M3 with 300 HP will have similar performance to a 5000 pound M3 with 600 HP. That's more or less true, but I guarantee you that, given similar engineering largesse, the 2500 pound car will absolutely feel more nimble in everyday driving - and definitely put more of a grin on your face in the twisties.

Bruce
Is there an echo in here?
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      07-07-2011, 10:13 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by christopherchenm View Post
Yes i know but the track time proves that , i just cant understand. Bugatti weights 4,486 lb while the Ariel Atom weights only 1300lb . Look at the top gear track time. Heavier the car is, more traction you got
I think you need to spend more time reading and less time posting.
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      07-08-2011, 03:47 AM   #37
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It's "than" not "then".
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      07-08-2011, 03:55 AM   #38
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Sorry typo
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      07-08-2011, 03:56 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
I think you need to spend more time reading and less time posting.
Couldnt get any info about this from the forum
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      07-08-2011, 09:28 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by signes View Post
Is there an echo in here?
I fleshed out your thought, and "corrected" your math.
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      07-08-2011, 10:40 AM   #41
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lol, typo. thanks.
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      07-08-2011, 08:56 PM   #42
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Shouldn't we be debating DCT vs 6MT at some point in this thread?
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      07-10-2011, 10:01 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by christopherchenm View Post
Yes i know but the track time proves that , i just cant understand. Bugatti weights 4,486 lb while the Ariel Atom weights only 1300lb . Look at the top gear track time. Heavier the car is, more traction you got...
That's not how it works, and here's the capsule version as to why:

The key to this is to understand is that the tire's "footprint" on the road is a dynamic thing. Even if a given car has a single tire at each axle, wide enough to span the vehicle from side to side, its effective footprint varies.

Under high cornering loads, the outside tires "roll under", unweighting the inside edge, and concentrating most of the load on the outside edge - even with properly sized and inflated tires designed for high performance.

Any car will place more load per square inch on the outside edge while cornering, but the heavier car will in fact load the outside edge to comparative extreme. The effect is that the rubber, being rubber and not steel, will begin to tear away under the increased load, and under extreme conditions, even begin chunking away. As the conditions continue that section of tread will begin to overheat, leading to reduced traction and that "greasy" feel. At that point, you're getting even more extreme tire wear as well.

All cars experience these conditions, but light cars are uniformly kinder to their sneakers - from first lap to last.

Bruce
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      07-10-2011, 07:10 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan View Post
.. heavier seats (correct me if I'm wrong),
Actually E92 seats are slightly lighter than E46 seats: 29,5 kg vs 32 kg.
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