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View Poll Results: Which one of the following do you consider to be the last ream ///M Car?
E30 M3 27 12.50%
E46 M3 26 12.04%
E9X M3 124 57.41%
E39 M5 1 0.46%
E60 M5 1 0.46%
E63 M6 1 0.46%
E82 1M 13 6.02%
Other (specify in thread - M1 does not count) 4 1.85%
N/A - I like the direction and future that the M division is headed for. 19 8.80%
Voters: 216. You may not vote on this poll

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      07-05-2011, 06:24 PM   #67
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this thead is filled with so much fail and choked with the same myopic rhetoric befalling any mention of the 1M. we all have different criteria for what constitutes an "M" car.

however, if "M" criteria is driving dynamics, the 1M appears to have it in spades, if the majority of reviewers are to believed. Why do you think the 1M is constantly compared to e30 M3's? it's more purpose built and focused than M cars have been in ages. to wit:

"The 1 series M is the most badass, coolest, sickest BMW to debut since the 1988 M3". Automobile, August 2011.
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      07-05-2011, 06:46 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lhsa View Post
this thead is filled with so much fail and choked with the same myopic rhetoric befalling any mention of the 1M. we all have different criteria for what constitutes an "M" car.

however, if "M" criteria is driving dynamics, the 1M appears to have it in spades, if the majority of reviewers are to believed. Why do you think the 1M is constantly compared to e30 M3's? it's more purpose built and focused than M cars have been in ages. to wit:

"The 1 series M is the most badass, coolest, sickest BMW to debut since the 1988 M3". Automobile, August 2011.


There you have it, folks! Of 161 respondents, only 11 people, like lhsa, seem to really understand that the 1M is the last real M car. The rest of us are just insecure M3 owners.

So, please, next time you want to talk about the fall of NA ///M engines or BMW's departure from previous successful designs/engine platforms, please do these folks a favor, and DON'T call the E9X M3 the last real M car. Clearly, as automobile magazine has elucidated, it's just not cool, sick or badass enough for that title and it has been superseded by the 1M as the last true Motorsport vehicle produced by BMW to date.

/thread
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      07-05-2011, 07:01 PM   #69
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LOL, insecure much?
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      07-05-2011, 07:09 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle S65B40 View Post
Bruce: Thanks for chiming in. While I generally find your posts to be informative and insightful, I think that you are confusing the phrase "Last real M" to really just mean "Last M."
Yes - except for the confusion part. For me, any M is a real M.

Again, I thought I had made that point clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle S65B40 View Post
Is it your contention that all M models manufactured by BMW are in line with the characteristics, history and underpinnings of all previous M cars? How about with the original conception of Motorsport?
I have been extremely clear in stating my belief that all M cars are individual. It's clear to anyone not totally infatuated with the letter that Ms are all different from each other. Size and weight, cylinder count, etc.

And oh, yeah. All of them have worked OK on track, more or less.

The one attribute they share is that they are all a high-perfomance variant of a more plebian standard model.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle S65B40 View Post
Certainly, IMO, an X3 M [for example] has little in common with its predecessors, yet if it's the most recent model from BMW M, you would then consider that to be the "last real m" under your logic described above?
Yes.

And the next M, whatever that is, will also be a real M, M3 Kool-Aid drinkers notwithstanding.
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      07-05-2011, 07:12 PM   #71
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Simply put, I don't think the M engineers would have put an M badge on something that wasn't worthy. Everything I've seen about that little car has contained praise. Do I like that the 1M is not naturally aspirated, NO! But I fully expect to hate the next F30 M3 for the exact same reason. That's why I bought now knowing full well the next M3 will probably be faster. We're all grown-ups and we like what we like but the engineers at M division have made few missteps up to this point. The 1M will most likely, from everything I've seen and read, give me a run for my money. That alone makes it M worthy IMHO. Is the 1M my favorite M though, no. It is "real" though and very good nevertheless. Jeremy Clarkson would not lie to us.
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      07-05-2011, 07:20 PM   #72
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With the exception of the E30, M cars are nothing but souped-up versions of mainstream coupes/sedans, so what really sets (or should set) an M car apart is the engine IMO. And in the E30's case, BMW screwed up with the engine IMO; I'd have never bought a 4-banger M, but it more than made up for that with driving dynamics. That was a true homologation car.

Anyway, the reason I voted for the E9x as the last M is because it is the last NA M made, it has the best engine, and also the most upgraded engine. The E30 went from an I6 to an I4. The E36 didn't even come with a true M engine in the US. And the E46 went from an I6 to another I6. And the E9x went from an I6 to a V8, and what a jewel of a V8. Just my opinion though.
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      07-06-2011, 12:20 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
With the exception of the E30, M cars are nothing but souped-up versions of mainstream coupes/sedans, so what really sets (or should set) an M car apart is the engine IMO. And in the E30's case, BMW screwed up with the engine IMO; I'd have never bought a 4-banger M, but it more than made up for that with driving dynamics. That was a true homologation car.

Anyway, the reason I voted for the E9x as the last M is because it is the last NA M made, it has the best engine, and also the most upgraded engine. The E30 went from an I6 to an I4. The E36 didn't even come with a true M engine in the US. And the E46 went from an I6 to another I6. And the E9x went from an I6 to a V8, and what a jewel of a V8. Just my opinion though.
Well said, JC.


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      07-06-2011, 12:33 AM   #74
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      07-06-2011, 02:06 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HBspeed View Post
That's exactly what people like me are planning on doing. We are just sad to have one our best options from the past in BMW pansy away from the small sports car/ naturally aspirated engine party. Losing options is never a good thing.
The 991 will have a redline of 7800

and I really like your post. It is exactly how I feel.
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      07-06-2011, 02:30 AM   #76
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Oh, and btw,

When people say that the 1m is the spiritual successor to the e30, to me it sounds as absurd as someone saying that the cayman is the spiritual successor to the original 911.

The cayman is light, nimble, handles well, and has Porsche DNA coursing through it. But, no matter what, the cayman is in no way a 911 or the spiritual successor of a 911 due to the engine layout. This is the same as the 1m. It is light, nimble, and handles well (I guess. I haven't sat in one). But, the 1m will never be in the same vein as the e30 because a) it is a one series and b) the engines are not even closely related to each other.
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      07-06-2011, 06:37 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crackberry View Post
... will never be in the same vein as the e30 because a) it is a one series and b) the engines are not even closely related to each other.
Well ... it's arguably closer to an E30 than most of its predecessors: the body and chassis are more reconfigured than the E36 M vs. E36 non-M; the weight and dimensions are closer than all M's except the 36. The 1M equals or surpasses many (most?) performance parameters of all M's.

And the particular comparison could eliminate the E36 - E9X iterations (failure of engine "relation") and ALL M5's and M6's" (different series and complete failure of engine comparison). Maybe that is your point. Agreed.

Not arguing. Just (again ) making an observation that any claim of "character" or "spirit" based upon hardware is inherently flawed. Now ... if someone wants to say "I just don't like the damn Exx" then I'm okay with a personal preference.

Except those that don't like a 1M without driving it, of course.
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      07-06-2011, 07:02 AM   #78
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Some good points being raised - although I'm interested as to why the e30 M3 is some kind of "pure bred" in some people's eyes.

It was a hack job just like the 1M!!

Chassis was a seam welded coupe, bits borrowed from the 325 for brakes and steering (although faster to turn than the 325). The engine was a M10 block with a 6cyl head hacked down to fit..

Come on guys, the e30 M3 was a brilliant hatchet job....just like the 1M...
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      07-06-2011, 07:43 AM   #79
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It was a hack job

And sooooo true. Thanks for the morning grin.

Last edited by hlmiii; 07-06-2011 at 10:35 AM.
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      07-06-2011, 08:30 AM   #80
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Mods: Thanks for keeping this one going. Really no intention to diss the 1m here.

The real purpose of this thread is to see what the consensus is as to what is the last "real ///M." But in reality, as we discuss this, i think the better phrase is "last true ///M." We've heard that come up a lot in the context of BMW's move to turbos, so it's fair to say that people have some sort of conception of a "true M."

To me, a true M car has a high revving NA engine with incredible responsiveness and lots of high end power, relatively lightweight feel with some "rawness" to it, balanced and precise handling, and not too much luxury and other BS.

That's why I picked the E46.

The E9X is obviously a better car and would be my choice if it wasn't so much bigger and luxo'd up. The 1M has only some of the qualities that fit my definition, but as JC pointed out, the engine is a key component to an M car, so I have a hard time giving the 1M that title. Does the F10 M5 deserve to be written off for the same reason? The jury is still out on the engine, but the added weight and luxo items caused me to omit it from the poll.

shout out to Z4M and E36/8 M coupe with S54 as other contenders. I wanted to include more cars on the poll, and these two should have been on the list.
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Last edited by Seattle S65B40; 07-06-2011 at 08:44 AM.
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      07-06-2011, 09:42 AM   #81
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where's the option to select the X5/6M?
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      07-06-2011, 01:47 PM   #82
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Wheres the option to select Z4M?
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      07-06-2011, 02:32 PM   #83
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Wheres the option to select Z4M?
That would be the "other" option. I think Z4M is a great little M car. As I mentioned a few posts up, it should have been in the poll
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      07-06-2011, 08:11 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hlmiii View Post
Well ... it's arguably closer to an E30 than most of its predecessors: the body and chassis are more reconfigured than the E36 M vs. E36 non-M; the weight and dimensions are closer than all M's except the 36. The 1M equals or surpasses many (most?) performance parameters of all M's.

And the particular comparison could eliminate the E36 - E9X iterations (failure of engine "relation") and ALL M5's and M6's" (different series and complete failure of engine comparison). Maybe that is your point. Agreed.

Not arguing. Just (again ) making an observation that any claim of "character" or "spirit" based upon hardware is inherently flawed. Now ... if someone wants to say "I just don't like the damn Exx" then I'm okay with a personal preference.

Except those that don't like a 1M without driving it, of course.

I hear this all the time. The 1m is more similar to the e30 because it went on a diet or is a smaller.

The e9x/e30 situation is analogous to the evolution of birds. Although Dinosaurs do not physically (phenotypically) resemble birds, birds evolved from dinosaurs. Similarly, although the e30 does not resemble the e9x via the number of cylinders in the engine, weight, luxury options or whatever, the same m3 DNA courses through them. Just as dinosaurs and amphibians look similar superficially (at least more so than dinosaurs and birds), evolutionarily they are not related to each other. Not even close. This is the same with the e30 and the 1m. Although they share a few superficial characteristics, the 1m lacks the m3 DNA and thus the 1m cannot be considered in the same vein as the m3 because it is an evolution of the 1 series.
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      07-06-2011, 09:46 PM   #85
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let's be real. there's no "science" here to speak of, talk of DNA or otherwise. who's to say a high revving NA engine is the heart of an M? maybe you, maybe someone else. and just as valid is another person who believes nimble handling in a more focused package without excess amenities/comforts is the M soul. both the e9X and 1M are great cars, just meant for different folks.

unless BMW comes out with the "official" definition of "M-ness", it's subjective and that's why pseudo-science and other straw men posited here are meaningless.

just to throw another log into the fire, at the official press release of the 1M, folks were told the goal of the car was to "recreate the feel and focused driving environment of the E30 M3". perhaps that's the true bar of M-ness from the horses mouth.
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      07-06-2011, 09:47 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crackberry View Post
I hear this all the time. The 1m is more similar to the e30 because it went on a diet or is a smaller.
No, the 1M is similar to the e30 M3 because it was an afterthought made up of bits and pieces and ideas lying around the shop floor...

The later M3s were engineered as part of the development of the standard 3 series - not an afterthought...
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      07-07-2011, 12:47 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lhsa View Post
let's be real. there's no "science" here to speak of, talk of DNA or otherwise. who's to say a high revving NA engine is the heart of an M? maybe you, maybe someone else. and just as valid is another person who believes nimble handling in a more focused package without excess amenities/comforts is the M soul. both the e9X and 1M are great cars, just meant for different folks.

unless BMW comes out with the "official" definition of "M-ness", it's subjective and that's why pseudo-science and other straw men posited here are meaningless.

just to throw another log into the fire, at the official press release of the 1M, folks were told the goal of the car was to "recreate the feel and focused driving environment of the E30 M3". perhaps that's the true bar of M-ness from the horses mouth.
That was an analogy. A very apt one at that. Of course there is no actual m3 DNA that you can extract out of a car. I am not talking about psuedo-science or anything literal. I am talking about DNA in a metaphorical sense.

And what I highlighted in bold, ///m has said for years that the high revving engine separates an m from all other cars. They even shat on how the 997 isn't high revving.
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      07-07-2011, 12:26 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle S65B40 View Post


There you have it, folks! Of 161 respondents, only 11 people, like lhsa, seem to really understand that the 1M is the last real M car. The rest of us are just insecure M3 owners.

So, please, next time you want to talk about the fall of NA ///M engines or BMW's departure from previous successful designs/engine platforms, please do these folks a favor, and DON'T call the E9X M3 the last real M car. Clearly, as automobile magazine has elucidated, it's just not cool, sick or badass enough for that title and it has been superseded by the 1M as the last true Motorsport vehicle produced by BMW to date.

/thread
This is an M3 forum, of course the poll is going to be biased. On 1addicts the 1M would be leading, on f10post the M5 would be winning, and I doubt X5/X6 M owners like to be told they dont drive a "real" M-car.
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