The last "real ///M?"

[Seattle S65B40]

Originally Posted by Elie335i

1M because it HAZ the N54 POWER

Is this for real? Can one of the many 1M supporters (Bonziii82, CAPSGOD, cooler2442, danielbreese, Elie335i, GotM, hlmiii, richpuer, SDSmurf) chime in with their supporting arguments for why the 1M is the last real ///M car???

Originally Posted by mdosu

holy crap, you joined in Jan 2011 and you already have 1000 posts?

Yeah. Goin strong. Trying to keep pace with Mkoesel.

Originally Posted by hlmiii

Discussion of particular hardware always gets into personal preferences. That's why this type of discussion never goes anywhere other than "I like X" at its core. Sometimes it's followed with an "and I am right."


The fundamental outlook and approach is the real basis for the M tradition and the products it develops. The excitement of running a car towards its limits in any situation is what is common to all of the models, regardless of whether any of them fits the personal interests of an individual driver.

Rather than an arbitrary template based upon numbers of cylinders, electronics, weight, etc. the following is a better and more comprehensive definition -

- Autoblog
http://www.bmwblog.com/2011/07/05/bm...-drive-review/

Sure, I think some definitional framework would help here, but I've only heard the phrase "last real ///M car" in the context of this forum. That's why I asked what it means to people when they say that?

So, to the extent you think high revving NA engines is among the most significant features and characteristics of a true of an M car, than this E9X M3 is indeed the last of it. To the extent you think pure race inspired feel and handling is the most significant feature and characteristic, than the E30 or E46 should be your answer. 1M was sort of a trick poll answer, as it is not a true ///M car with its N54 IMO...

[99three]

Where is the e36 in the poll?

[Seattle S65B40]

Originally Posted by 99three

Where is the e36 in the poll?

That would fall under "other" if you feel that is the best answer. IMO E36 was the "worst" of the M3s, even though it was a spectacular car in its own right. That's why it was omitted.

[Mr.Metak2you]

Originally Posted by Seattle S65B40

.....So, to the extent you think high revving NA engines is among the most significant features and characteristics of a true of an M car, than this E9X M3 is indeed the last of it. To the extent you think pure race inspired feel and handling is the most significant feature and characteristic, than the E30 or E46 should be your answer. 1M was sort of a trick poll answer, as it is not a true ///M car with its N54 IMO...

So your true motive for the poll is revealed. You FAIL.... Why so insecure?

Mods, you know what you need to do and as trigger happy as it has been around here....

IBTL

[Seattle S65B40]

Originally Posted by ///Metak

So your true motive for the poll is revealed. You FAIL.... Why so insecure?

Mods, you know what you need to do and as trigger happy as it has been around here....

IBTL

Why so quick to call for suppression of 1st amendment rights?

Most people would agree that the 1M is far from the "last real ///M," a phrase that everyone refers to in the context of E9X M3 and BMW's move to turbos.

There is no real motive, as you've purported, but rather a simple ancillary component added to the poll to see whether those blinded by BMW's analogy to the E30 M3 are indeed persuaded that the 1M is now the last [or closest thing to the last] real M...

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by Seattle S65B40

Which one of the following vehicles, if any, best deserves the title of "last real ///M Car?"

E30 M3
E46 M3
E9X M3
E39 M5
E60 M5
E63 M6
E82 1M

We've heard that phrase thrown around here quite a bit, but do we all agree that E9X is that car? What does that even mean to you?

Clearly, the 1M is it. It's got an M badge on it, and it scares the hell out of the M3, performance-wise.

The next real M will be the M5, followed, I guess, by the new M3 - or maybe it'll be the M6, or whatever comes out first.

These cars (including the suvs) all share a single trait:

They are higher performance variants of a basic vehicle sold by BMW - much like the U.S. musclecars of the sixties - but of course more sophisticated, just as today's U.S. musclecars are.

They share nothing else, but each are individual efforts.

Yes, the E30 was a streetable car designed to compete with the Mercedes 190 E 2.3-16 on track, and those two cars went at it hammer and tong. So what. Anybody who feels that the M logo stands for track cars that are streetable, think again. It stands for overall enhanced performance over the more basic models. Nothing more.

And nothing less, either.

[Seattle S65B40]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

Clearly, the 1M is it.

I like the 1M more and more and am not disputing that it is an M car, because it does indeed share a lot of components with the M3, but when discussing all of the M cars ever made, and the tradition and history out of which all of those cars arose, how could the one with the least in common (think engine) with that history be the last real M?

[shimmy09]

No love for e86 z4 m coupe? I have both e92 and e86 m.. Im still in love with my z4m even after 3 years it still brings a smile to my face.. Imo much more raw than e92 m.

[Kiemyster]

Originally Posted by PhillyNate

Oh, we all feel deeply. I don't think any of us would have coughed up this kind of money if the E9x wasn't everything it is. I think if the E9x's weighed what the E46's did, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. The E9x M3 is simply the greatest all-around car of all time but some other iterations have just been a little purer in purpose.

Yeah. people discredit it because of its weight and size but BMW is just following the laws of any company that makes a product, and thats keeping up with the current trends and tastes of the consumer market. People wanted a little more room, and they delivered, at the cost of some weight.

E90 M3 is the one that stole my heart but we all can agree (i hope) that the 46M is a timeless design.

And please... 1M is not a real M car. 1M = 135i + z4 engine + m3 suspension.

i dont know about you guys, but for a car to be an m car, it needs to be built by M from the ground up as they have ALWAYS done. the 1m is just a little Frankenstein action. no one can convince me that the 1M is a real M car. thanks, but no thanks. yes yes we know, its as close to the e30 as it gets.... whatsgoodtho?

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by Seattle S65B40

I like the 1M more and more and am not disputing that it is an M car, because it does indeed share a lot of components with the M3, but when discussing all of the M cars ever made, and the tradition and history out of which all of those cars arose, how could the one with the least in common (think engine) with that history be the last real M?

Uh, because it's the last car BMW has offered with the letter "M" on it.

I thought I had made that point clear. Each M car has been a higher-performance derivative of a more plebian model. That's the only characteristic they share. Thus, every M is a real M - including the SUVs, and including all the next Ms.

This is simple stuff. Get over your confusion, and stop drinking the M Kool-Aid.

[Mr.Metak2you]

Originally Posted by Seattle S65B40

Why so quick to call for suppression of 1st amendment rights?.....

I don't have the power to lock threads. Personally, I don't think threads should be locked. But I don't make the rules and 1st amendment doesn't apply here. You want your 1st amendment, go start your own forum. Members who are violating forum rules should be dealt with rather than shut down discussions, I mean that is what forums are for, DISCUSSIONS. As a former M3 owner and soon to be 1M owner(3weeks and waiting), I love both cars. I did get tired of the extremely rude insults, that 'some' not all, M3 owners were berating the 1M owners with. I started a thread to merely discuss the design elements of both the 1M and M3. To point out how similar some of the design elements were. Guess what? M3 owners no likey and THREAD LOCKED!

See here:
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=551008

Originally Posted by Seattle S65B40

I like the 1M more and more and am not disputing that it is an M car.....

Huh? We should be doing the facepalm. Now, you're not disputing it is an M car? You are a typing contradiction. That is EXACTLY what you have been saying. Allow me to refresh your very short term memory!

Originally Posted by Seattle S65B40

1M is a turbo and that alone sets it apart from "REAL" M cars.......

Originally Posted by Seattle S65B40

...1M was sort of a trick poll answer, as it is not a true ///M car with its N54 IMO...

And yes, your motive is quite clear based on the last quote!

[Seattle S65B40]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

Uh, because it's the last car BMW has offered with the letter "M" on it.

I thought I had made that point clear. Each M car has been a higher-performance derivative of a more plebian model. That's the only characteristic they share. Thus, every M is a real M - including the SUVs, and including all the next Ms.

This is simple stuff. Get over your confusion, and stop drinking the M Kool-Aid.

Bruce: Thanks for chiming in. While I generally find your posts to be informative and insightful, I think that you are confusing the phrase "Last real M" to really just mean "Last M."

Is it your contention that all M models manufactured by BMW are in line with the characteristics, history and underpinnings of all previous M cars? How about with the original conception of Motorsport?

Certainly, IMO, an X3 M [for example] has little in common with its predecessors, yet if it's the most recent model from BMW M, you would then consider that to be the "last real m" under your logic described above??

Originally Posted by ///Metak

I don't have the power to lock threads. Personally, I don't think threads should be locked. But I don't make the rules and 1st amendment doesn't apply here. You want your 1st amendment, go start your own forum. Members who are violating forum rules should be dealt with rather than shut down discussions, I mean that is what forums are for, DISCUSSIONS. As a former M3 owner and soon to be 1M owner(3weeks and waiting), I love both cars. I did get tired of the extremely rude insults, that 'some' not all, M3 owners were berating the 1M owners with. I started a thread to merely discuss the design elements of both the 1M and M3. To point out how similar some of the design elements were. Guess what? M3 owners no likey and THREAD LOCKED!

See here:
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=551008




Huh? We should be doing the facepalm. Now, you're not disputing it is an M car? You are a typing contradiction. That is EXACTLY what you have been saying. Allow me to refresh your very short term memory!





And yes, your motive is quite clear based on the last quote!

This isn't an attack against your 1M - I am happy that you will get yours soon. While I have stated in the past that I don't see the 1M as a real M, I have begun to accept it for what it is based on the reviews. This poll isn't about the 1M though. It is about which one of all the BMW M cars ever made is most in line with the tradition and conception behind the original Motorsport division. To me, a high revving NA engine is one traditional concept behind an M car. Accordingly, the 1M has already strayed away from M history in that regard, so it can't be the last real M - whatever you define that to mean. 93% of 145 respondents agree.

BTW - Which forum rules have I violated?

[M5280RCR]

I think you overlooked the E34 M5. Last of the handbuilt M's; that is where my vote goes.

[richardg]

As much as I like my e92 M I had much more intimate experience with my e36M and e46M. Someone said they felt the e36 was the worst of them and I would love to know why. Maybe it was because I went mod crazy with my e36 and my e92 is basically stock. Whatever it may be I think the e36/e46 were the last of the true M cars. Not because of just the engines but because the 3 series at the time was still a small car and they came with an awesome I6. I felt both the e36 and e46 were not excessively heavy and they had nice things in them that made them ENTRY level luxury cars. The thing is that bmw has to keep the lights on so they have to make nicer cars. Just about everything comes with heated seats, tpms, and traction control these days. Back in the late 90s and early 2000 these were luxury items. The only way to make a "BMW" or any luxury car is to slather them in leather and load them up with lots of things. Also for 90% of consumers a larger more efficient car is a win win so there is no reason not to make future versions of just about all cars that way. Look at the ford Taurus for a perfect example of how a car goes up in size/efficiency/standard equipment over time. Honestly I expect the 1 series (IMO ugly) to become the new bmw of choice for bmw enthusiasts. 3 series are too expensive and large to keep the image they once held. That is why I feel cars like the miata, cayman, and LFA are special. They are not there to fill gaps in product. They are not there to please accountants. They are there to be purpose cars. They aren't the fastest at what they do but they are special in ways only cars guys can truly understand.

[richardg]

^ especially the miata. I know I have gone off topic but not easy to find fun small light efficient rwd manual cars for less than 25k.

[speedfan]

Originally Posted by richardg

^ especially the miata. I know I have gone off topic but not easy to find fun small light efficient rwd manual cars for less than 25k.

GOOD CALL!!!!!!!!!
the miata is freaking fun to drive on the track. it handles VERY WELL too. it's like a baby e36m3.

Can't beat an old race-prep'ed miata. for 6k (depending on the year), you can have all the fun on the track as you want. Reliable & LOW maintenance cost too. I used to look for a race-prep'ed miata as a track toy but i failed.
Still regret that I didnt pull that off!

back to the topic, it's really entertaining to see the 1M owners defending for their car. Please correct me if i'm wrong, that hunchback 1M doesnt even have the differential, does it?

Originally Posted by Seattle S65B40

That would fall under "other" if you feel that is the best answer. IMO E36 was the "worst" of the M3s so, even though it was a spectacular car in its own right. That's why it was omitted.

I somewhat agree with you for the fact that we got the handicapped motor for the e36m3. Imagine we got the 321hp motor, it would've been a legend here!

[hlmiii]

Originally Posted by Seattle S65B40

Is this for real? Can one of the many 1M supporters (Bonziii82, CAPSGOD, cooler2442, danielbreese, Elie335i, GotM, hlmiii, richpuer, SDSmurf) chime in with their supporting arguments for why the 1M is the last real ///M car???

Most def.
It's easy because you said it best -

Originally Posted by Seattle S65B40

To the extent you think pure race inspired feel and handling is the most significant feature and characteristic ...

You see ... you got biggest detail of your own question wrong. The characteristic that didn't have to be qualified with quotes: the last.
Drive one. You'll see.

[MonteCarloM3]

all M cars are real. maybe some people are unhappy with what BMW decides to do as a business but remember they are out to make money which is purpose #1. keeping nut-bar fanatics happy is maybe a strategy to attain purpose #1 but it is certainly not their only method.

what is this "real" M car that people seem to miss around here? did everyone drive an E30 M3 before the E92 out now? i guess we can go back to the "good old days" of no power steering, no power brakes, no power windows, smaller engine, less HP, harsher ride, no nav/stereo but i wouldn't call that a real M car, it's just an OLD M car.

i think people romanticize the older cars and forget that what we have now is superior in every way. just like an old girlfriend, you broke up with her cuz she was a bitch or you just couldn't handle it anymore, but all you remember today are those fun times you once had.

[MrRoboto]

One could argue that the E9x is the least like other M3s before it because of the V8 and therefore not the last 'real' M car. Weren't all other engines inline 6 with the exception of the inline 4 in the very beginning?

[richardg]

as for my 2 cents on the 1m I think this is an awesome M car. Is it a true M car? I don't know really. Never drove it. To be honest everything about the car is very "M like" except the engine. Not too many people complaining about the new M5, though I have seen a few. I think in time we will all eventually drive, and most of us like the 1m (and new turbo M3) I doubt any of you would say the Ferrari F40 wasn't a real Ferrari just because it had turbos. Or that a 458 italia isn't a Ferrari because it doesn't offer a gated 6 speed. Things are going to have to change. Ultimately the M3 would lose to all of it's competitors unless it did one of two things. Dropped in size/weight or upped its power. There are pros and cons too both, but to meet a price point you can only do so much. We all know the 3 series isn't going to get smaller. Not happening. PERIOD. So it has to be lighter or more powerful. You can only put so many exotic materials in a car that bases around 55-60k that is low volume. Also the competition has no problem putting blowers in any of their cars so eventually BMW wouldn't have a competitive product if they didn't up the power. And if they do that with a NA setup the gas milage is going to suck. Are you going to buy that car? And if you do, know that the fines BMW is charged with will get passed on to you. Most are not willing to do that. It is a shame the new A6 wagon weighs as much as a m3 coupe and BMW has a lot of work to do but this is one of those steps. I believe in the end most of us will be happy with BMW's direction. You don't hear people bitching about Bangle anymore. It will just take time and it will be a better car and the lineup will be better. Will it be as "pure" NO but if that is something you must have you are going to have to come to grips with the fact that BMW no longer offers a product for you. Go buy a Porsche or Lotus.

source for my a6 statement http://www.autoblog.com/2011/05/18/2...res-adulation/

[HBspeed]

Originally Posted by richardg

as for my 2 cents on the 1m I think this is an awesome M car. Is it a true M car? I don't know really. Never drove it. To be honest everything about the car is very "M like" except the engine. Not too many people complaining about the new M5, though I have seen a few. I think in time we will all eventually drive, and most of us like the 1m (and new turbo M3) I doubt any of you would say the Ferrari F40 wasn't a real Ferrari just because it had turbos. Or that a 458 italia isn't a Ferrari because it doesn't offer a gated 6 speed. Things are going to have to change. Ultimately the M3 would lose to all of it's competitors unless it did one of two things. Dropped in size/weight or upped its power. There are pros and cons too both, but to meet a price point you can only do so much. We all know the 3 series isn't going to get smaller. Not happening. PERIOD. So it has to be lighter or more powerful. You can only put so many exotic materials in a car that bases around 55-60k that is low volume. Also the competition has no problem putting blowers in any of their cars so eventually BMW wouldn't have a competitive product if they didn't up the power. And if they do that with a NA setup the gas milage is going to suck. Are you going to buy that car? And if you do, know that the fines BMW is charged with will get passed on to you. Most are not willing to do that. It is a shame the new A6 wagon weighs as much as a m3 coupe and BMW has a lot of work to do but this is one of those steps. I believe in the end most of us will be happy with BMW's direction. You don't hear people bitching about Bangle anymore. It will just take time and it will be a better car and the lineup will be better. Will it be as "pure" NO but if that is something you must have you are going to have to come to grips with the fact that BMW no longer offers a product for you. Go buy a Porsche or Lotus.

source for my a6 statement http://www.autoblog.com/2011/05/18/2...res-adulation/

That's exactly what people like me are planning on doing. We are just sad to have one our best options from the past in BMW pansy away from the small sports car/ naturally aspirated engine party. Losing options is never a good thing.

[bmwboi]

It really depends on your definition of what a real M car is. One of my favorites is the e46 m3 ZCP.