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      07-04-2011, 07:30 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
Could BMW have done better? Yes. Do most cars have room for improvement? Absolutely. Otherwise, they would cost $1M.

Was the current "effort" enough? Well, considering that several years after its release it is still considered the benchmark in the segment, has won engine of the year and has won almost all notable comparison tests (yes, even against so called torque monsters) I think BMW did alright.

Sure it could have been engineered for more torque. Sure it could have been given more power. BMW could have built a car to challenge the GT3 RS too. EVERY car will have compromises somewhere. If budget and selling price was irrelevant, then of course they could build a near perfect car. But the reality is they built what has arguably been considered one of the best overall cars available. Several magazines have made this very comment that there isn't a better car available when you look at performance, DD practicality and fun. What that also means is there are compromises somewhere. The M3 is a better car than a Cayman S if DD requirements matter. It is also a better car than a Cayman S on certain tracks (others not so much). Build quality is very good. Reliability is very good.

Also, I can never understand how people think the M3 doesn't have enough torque for DD duties. At the track where rev range is important, it has lots of torque that is very linear to use. On the street, the gearing provides a lot of torque and if you are in the right gear, more than a 335i to the wheels (as proven here many, many times). I have owned and driven cars with lots of torque and the M3 has less but still TONS for just beating around town.

It's too bad that you seem disappointed with the M3 you have coming. It seems to me that there would be less expensive cars that might have made you happier?
I agree. and this has been the most enjoyable driving experience I have ever had. Have been with the car a bit over a year, and smile every time I get behind the wheel. If you want torque buy a challenger or camaro and get all the torque you want and save quite a bit of cash. This car and engine are truly works of art, and with that, not everyone appreciates that. This car and engine rocks, period.
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      07-04-2011, 07:44 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
Could BMW have done better? Yes. Do most cars have room for improvement? Absolutely. Otherwise, they would cost $1M.

Was the current "effort" enough? Well, considering that several years after its release it is still considered the benchmark in the segment, has won engine of the year and has won almost all notable comparison tests (yes, even against so called torque monsters) I think BMW did alright.

Sure it could have been engineered for more torque. Sure it could have been given more power. BMW could have built a car to challenge the GT3 RS too. EVERY car will have compromises somewhere. If budget and selling price was irrelevant, then of course they could build a near perfect car. But the reality is they built what has arguably been considered one of the best overall cars available. Several magazines have made this very comment that there isn't a better car available when you look at performance, DD practicality and fun. What that also means is there are compromises somewhere. The M3 is a better car than a Cayman S if DD requirements matter. It is also a better car than a Cayman S on certain tracks (others not so much). Build quality is very good. Reliability is very good. I would bet few people would see the S65 as being the weak part of the M3 (as a matter of fact, most reviews would likely say it is the best part of the M3 and what makes the car a class leader). If torque is someone's ultimate objective, then I guess that would be one of the only compromises of the engine but even that is somewhat rectified by gearing.

Also, I can never understand how people think the M3 doesn't have enough torque for DD duties. At the track where rev range is important, it has lots of torque that is very linear to use. On the street, the gearing provides a lot of torque and if you are in the right gear, more than a 335i to the wheels (as proven here many, many times). I have owned and driven cars with lots of torque and the M3 has less but still TONS for just beating around town.

It's too bad that you seem disappointed with the M3 you have coming. It seems to me that there would be less expensive cars that might have made you happier?

P.S. I'm not saying the M3 is perfect or even close... I'm just saying that all car's are a compromise in some way, especially cars that are expected to be very capable and practical DDs and also perform at a high level at the track or spirited back road driving. If BMW thought they could sell the M3 as a $125,000 car, they would have built the car to that level with less compromise but would then have priced it out of its market. C63... has compromises (more than the M3 IMO), RS5... has compromises (again, more than the M3 IMO), Cayman S... has compromises, I could go on...

I agree with all of your points. The BMW is a great car, but how hard would it of been to put in the GTS engine, and price it around 3-4 grand more? The C63 AMG is a couple grand more then the M3, equally loaded. Putting in that GTS engine would of made it future proof for years to come. The reason I would of opted for the Cayman S is because BMW is milking the M division. The orange peel on the car is horrendous. The interior quality while better than the regular line, still leaves more to be desired. The M3 is BMW's most reliable car. If you look at a couple of the most recent threads, people seem to be complaining about the fender and the hood being misaligned, cars going into limp, etc...If they had put in that 4.4L engine. I'm not saying that the M3 doesn't have enough torque for day to day duties. I ride a sport-bike and high revving is what it lives for....17k redline. The point I'm trying to make is that if BMW had put in the effort to tune the engine with 310-320 lb. ft. of torque then the car would of been perfect. If they had put in the GTS engine, then the e9x M3 would be the BEST M3 in history in my opinion. The weight of the M3 doesn't help it's case. ~3700 pounds is sad. I like cars that don't make me feel like "What if they had done this or that to it?" The M3 for me offers what I want and want from a car, but the C63 AMG coupe is a car to watch. It offers the power for day to day, and the same usability as the M3. The C63 AMG BS is going to blow anything that BMW has out of the water.
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      07-04-2011, 07:47 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
Let's also not forget, that while it may be quicker on some tracks than a cayman S (power to weight almost always dictates this) it will never feel as good, be as planted nor have the precision.
Yeah, re-read the comments on the Cayman S in my post and reworded a bit (before you replied)... on many tracks, especially tighter ones, the Cayman would be the better car.
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      07-04-2011, 07:52 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
I agree with all of your points. The BMW is a great car, but how hard would it of been to put in the GTS engine, and price it around 3-4 grand more? The C63 AMG is a couple grand more then the M3, equally loaded. Putting in that GTS engine would of made it future proof for years to come. The reason I would of opted for the Cayman S is because BMW is milking the M division. The orange peel on the car is horrendous. The interior quality while better than the regular line, still leaves more to be desired. The M3 is BMW's most reliable car. If you look at a couple of the most recent threads, people seem to be complaining about the fender and the hood being misaligned, cars going into limp, etc...If they had put in that 4.4L engine. I'm not saying that the M3 doesn't have enough torque for day to day duties. I ride a sport-bike and high revving is what it lives for....17k redline. The point I'm trying to make is that if BMW had put in the effort to tune the engine with 310-320 lb. ft. of torque then the car would of been perfect. If they had put in the GTS engine, then the e9x M3 would be the BEST M3 in history in my opinion. The weight of the M3 doesn't help it's case. ~3700 pounds is sad. I like cars that don't make me feel like "What if they had done this or that to it?" The M3 for me offers what I want and want from a car, but the C63 AMG coupe is a car to watch. It offers the power for day to day, and the same usability as the M3. The C63 AMG BS is going to blow anything that BMW has out of the water.
Good points. I'm less optimistic that the C63 AMG coupe will be the better drivers car but who knows? Hopefully, BMW does something great with the F3x M3 that keeps it at the top of its class and delivers a linear but higher torque engine. I'm worried that the turbo won't be the engine the S65 is overall but I remain cautiously optimistic.
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      07-04-2011, 09:52 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
Im worried about the turbo in the M3, and not because Im an all out anti turbo guy, but because the M turbo cars engines just dont satisfy the way their NA have.
But actually the new M turbo cars i.e 1M, have received praises from virtually all motor sport journalist

Every magazine or video review i've read or watch have pointed to the 1M turbo engine as the star of the package.
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      07-04-2011, 09:57 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by turbomma View Post
But actually the new M turbo cars i.e 1M, have received praises from virtually all motor sport journalist

Every magazine or video review i've read or watch have pointed to the 1M turbo engine as the star of the package.
See that happens on the track, it will overheat and enter limp mode
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      07-04-2011, 10:08 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
The competition has gotten very tight. The ISF, although still a newcomer has essentially been an equal match for the M3, both being 2012 models on and off the track in terms of outright numbers.
The C63 coupe has also been said to be 'right there'.
Im worried about the turbo in the M3, and not because Im an all out anti turbo guy, but because the M turbo cars engines just dont satisfy the way their NA have.
And BMW being their stubborn selves still proclaim the M3 as the leader in the class. BMW's gone cheap. They no longer want to invest the R&D even if it's model cycle, to improve on a car that needs to be improved on. They're going down the drain...and fast.
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You sound like my buddies who have AMG's - Slam the gas, slam the brakes...
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      07-04-2011, 10:27 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
And BMW being their stubborn selves still proclaim the M3 as the leader in the class. BMW's gone cheap. They no longer want to invest the R&D even if it's model cycle, to improve on a car that needs to be improved on. They're going down the drain...and fast.

Dude, seriously, why are you even getting an M3?!? Post after post all you are doing is bashing the car and how "cheap and half-assed" it is. PLEASE go buy something else......and i'm sure you'd complain about that too, jeez.
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      07-04-2011, 10:29 PM   #75
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To answer your ?. They will make a F30 M3 enough said.
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      07-04-2011, 11:00 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Still not "high revving". While it's 'higher', it's not "High Revving". The new M5 revs that high. Whoop-de-doo.
The new M5 was described by BMW as having a high-revving V8 engine

http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=548345
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      07-04-2011, 11:00 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by CAPSGOD View Post
The 135 is on par with the E46 M3 though.
Not by any means. Close in the straights, but no where else.
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      07-05-2011, 01:05 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by spyderco10 View Post
oh good, the 335 vs m3 threads will continue even with the new f30, even before it comes out.
No kidding. Sigh.
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      07-05-2011, 01:10 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim B. View Post
Dude, seriously, why are you even getting an M3?!? Post after post all you are doing is bashing the car and how "cheap and half-assed" it is. PLEASE go buy something else......and i'm sure you'd complain about that too, jeez.
Fanboi detected. I've stated that I love the M3 already, but unlike you I'm not afraid to embrace another brand and I'm also not afraid to voice that BMW's gone cheap...because they have. I bash what deserves bashing. I'm not taking anything away from how well rounded the car is, but BMW had the resources and could of done better but knew all they had to do was slap a M badge on it and it would sell like hotcakes. Why waste money on making something 'perfect' when 'good' will suffice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAPSGOD View Post
The new M5 was described by BMW as having a high-revving V8 engine

http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=548345
Yes, BMW marketing at its best. BMW also said the F10 would be "lighter" yet it gained ~150 pounds. 7,500 RPM isn't "high" at all. Now, 8400 on the M3..that's high. 9k on the 458 Italia.high.
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      07-05-2011, 08:24 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by christopherchenm View Post
You gotta pay to play. Theres no way a high rev engine with low end torque. Also M3 lacks low end torque but i will not complain. My c63 with 630NM torque but every time i step on the pedal the wheels scream.
Why is NM mentionned? You live in the states is it to make it seem more?
BTW...dont care if the 335 or whatever it is is faster I dislike F/I for many reasons: Possible boost leaks(more parts can go wrong), lousy exhaust note(have you guys heard the X5M/X6M?), I like my sports-sporty car to rev high.
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Its because a lot of BMW owners are housewives or business professionals and know little about cars other than BMW's are a status symbol in their own circles so that have to have one. But exotic car owners know cars, that's why they are willing to spend for a killer car and they know something different when they see one.
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      07-05-2011, 09:13 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Fanboi detected. I've stated that I love the M3 already, but unlike you I'm not afraid to embrace another brand and I'm also not afraid to voice that BMW's gone cheap...because they have. I bash what deserves bashing. I'm not taking anything away from how well rounded the car is, but BMW had the resources and could of done better but knew all they had to do was slap a M badge on it and it would sell like hotcakes. Why waste money on making something 'perfect' when 'good' will suffice?.
Because in the M3's market space, BMW's "good" is as good or better than any of the competition. If BMW released a car that set the benchmark in 2008 for performance in it's segment and even today is still widely considered to be the benchmark, why is that not enough? That is business... plain and simple. They set a goal of building a car that would keep the M3 as the segment leader and they succeeded in that. Does it lead every single performance category? No but it does not need to either to be the best overall car. If they built it to be "perfect" then they would either lose money on it or it would be priced out of the current market segment and competing with higher end and more expensive cars.

Again, I'm not debating that BMW couldn't have made the car even better (like by adding the GTS engine, etc) what I am trying to suggest to you is that you are dreaming if you don't think making money drives ALL of these decisions and as long as BMW continues to build cars that set segment standards (well, at least the M3) then that is what they should be measured against... Not some idealistic "perfect" car that would be either not profitable for them or priced out of this segment. I guess what I'm really saying is that your expectations are not realistic and that the M3 is every bit the car it should have been to compete against other cars in it's segment.
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      07-05-2011, 09:27 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
The biggest thing BMW could have done with the M3 was weight...not that it would have been much faster, but coming from having many lighter and nimbler cars, I appreciate precision and feel more than I do straight line numbers. Another 100-150 lbs would have made this car a more ideal weight.
Guys-there is damn good reason why the M3 is heavy. Anybody here get under the car and check out the rear subframe area???

See link http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtest...alkaround.html

The above link shows you how BMW have strengthened the rear sub frame to avoid the E46 M3 fiasco thats plaguing every owner. The M3 is the tits and rightly so you drive the nuts of the car and..that puts a LOT of stress on the suspension components. With the E9X M3-BMW a lot more attention to the under body of the car hence the added weight due to strength.
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      07-05-2011, 10:54 AM   #83
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I like it when drivers compare their cars (335, 1M, 135, S5, etc) to our M3. It says something about M3. Except for 911 and C63 I don't see many M3 drivers comparing us to them
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      07-05-2011, 11:06 AM   #84
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I like it when drivers compare their cars (335, 1M, 135, S5, etc) to our M3. It says something about M3. Except for 911 and C63 I don't see many M3 drivers comparing us to them
+1

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      07-05-2011, 12:56 PM   #85
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maybe hotice should have gotten a used GTR

but wait you got laid off and still bought a M3? that's one hell of a car to buy after being laid off..
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      07-05-2011, 01:11 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sameh View Post
I like it when drivers compare their cars (335, 1M, 135, S5, etc) to our M3. It says something about M3. Except for 911 and C63 I don't see many M3 drivers comparing us to them
I thought it was an m3 owner who started this thread...
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      07-05-2011, 01:18 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by persian54 View Post
maybe hotice should have gotten a used GTR

but wait you got laid off and still bought a M3? that's one hell of a car to buy after being laid off..
Back in the family business.
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      07-05-2011, 01:27 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
Because in the M3's market space, BMW's "good" is as good or better than any of the competition. If BMW released a car that set the benchmark in 2008 for performance in it's segment and even today is still widely considered to be the benchmark, why is that not enough? That is business... plain and simple. They set a goal of building a car that would keep the M3 as the segment leader and they succeeded in that. Does it lead every single performance category? No but it does not need to either to be the best overall car. If they built it to be "perfect" then they would either lose money on it or it would be priced out of the current market segment and competing with higher end and more expensive cars.

Again, I'm not debating that BMW couldn't have made the car even better (like by adding the GTS engine, etc) what I am trying to suggest to you is that you are dreaming if you don't think making money drives ALL of these decisions and as long as BMW continues to build cars that set segment standards (well, at least the M3) then that is what they should be measured against... Not some idealistic "perfect" car that would be either not profitable for them or priced out of this segment. I guess what I'm really saying is that your expectations are not realistic and that the M3 is every bit the car it should have been to compete against other cars in it's segment.
+1 Well said GTHAL
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