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      12-24-2007, 12:40 PM   #133
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floridaboy,
You totally missed my point.

1. Science and religion are ABSOLUTELY MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
2. Both can find home in a human being
3. All the above mentioned scientists made their discoveries by practicing scientific methods of critical thinking and scrutiny,
practical experiments backed up by physical evidence. And that’s why we live in the world we live in.

Remember:
SCIENCE IS A WAY OF THINKING, NOT A BODY OF KNOWLEDGE!!!

Funny that you mention Kepler. If he followed religious way of thinking (accept bible at face value and don’t ask too many questions) we would have still believed that Earth was flat at the center of the Universe. (see my sig )

My point is that if we make tremendous technical and medical strides when thinking scientifically, why NOT use the same methods for the Granddaddy of all questions: Why are we here and what’s the meaning of life?

Why get the quick fix from the bible? Why NOT ask tough questions and be patient? It takes time to figure things out.
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      12-24-2007, 12:52 PM   #134
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Your opinion on the flat earth is as confused as you are!
The Bible taught a spherical earth, before anyone at NASA ever existed!
Again you need to READ IT!
more about the Letronne flat-earth nonsense here:
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c034.html
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      12-24-2007, 01:03 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im View Post
floridaboy,
My point is that if we make tremendous technical and medical strides when thinking scientifically, why NOT use the same methods for the Granddaddy of all questions: Why are we here and what’s the meaning of life.
You are expecting a lot out of the men in lab coats!

The more you look at science, you realize it cannot answer the really great questions. You need look no further than the basic elements of matter.

Science cannot even explain how atoms are held together! By all the laws of nature, the basic structure should simply fly apart. The Bible teaches God holds all things together:

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Colossions 1:16-17

The Greek used there is sunistemi which means "to stand-together," "to be held together," "to cohere..."

Hey Mr. Atheist---
do you know what Science says holds everything together?
Here it comes, wait for it...

"THE FORCE."
Yep, THE STRONG FORCE.

Sure sounds like a myth to me. Or maybe a religion?
Well, may the FORCE be with you.

Keep reading, more below...

"Remember, the nucleus contains neutrons and protons. The neutrons are electrically neutral, and so the electric force won't hold them in. Furthermore, the protons are all positively charged, and so they all repel each other. So if the electric force was the only force involved, you couldn't create a nucleus. You could try to push all those protons and neutrons together, but as soon as you let go, the protons would all shoot away from each other, and the neutrons would drift apart as well. There has to be some other force that holds protons and neutrons together.

Of course, since the electric force is constantly trying to drive the protons apart, the force that holds them all in must be stronger than the electric force. And keep in mind, the electric force gets stronger as charged particles get closer together, and the protons in a nucleus are very close together. As a result, the force that holds protons and neutrons together must be very strong. Well, in a brilliant stroke of imagination, physicists have named this force "the strong force." ...The strong force is a force which attracts protons to protons, neutrons to neutrons, and protons and neutrons to each other." BLAH BLAH BLAH...
http://webs.morningside.edu/slaven/P...tom/atom2.html

WHAT HOLDS THE UNIVERSE TOGETHER?
"This passage strongly suggests that the active power of God is behind the mysterious strong force that holds every atomic nucleus together. If this is so, all the other fundamental forces of nature are likewise forces that originate with Christ..."
http://www.ldolphin.org/cohere.shtml

PLEASE NOTE: that last link above was written by a retired physicist holding a degree with high honors in physics and distinction in mathematics from San Diego State University, and 30 years on the the staff of SRI International (formerly Stanford Research Institute), in Menlo Park, California.

You won't find God in a bunsen burner, you'll have to meet Him at Calvary like everyone else!

e90im, LISTEN UP:
As a former evolutionist, I can assure you...
Science catches up to the Bible once in a while...
but not often!

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      12-24-2007, 01:48 PM   #136
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floridaboy,

If you use God to explain everything, you stagnate. Why research anything then?
The problem is that you NEED all the answers NOW. And therefore you call God for help. Because that takes care of all the unknown.
I can't help but call that lazy, because scientific research is hard work.

Evidently, we are NOT going to change each other's outlook on the universe and life.

You see me going to hell for not worshiping a fictional character from a fairy tale book.

I look at you and stand in awe that an educated grown man can live his life based on 2,000 years old ambiguous man-made story.

P.S. Do not equate science with men in lab coats. Science is a way of thinking about universe and life. Same as religion. Now think about that.
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      12-24-2007, 03:29 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FloridaBoy View Post
Your opinion on the flat earth is as confused as you are!
The Bible taught a spherical earth, before anyone at NASA ever existed!
Again you need to READ IT!
more about the Letronne flat-earth nonsense here:
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c034.html
NASA...you know they proved all that before USA exiset let alone NASA....
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      12-24-2007, 03:50 PM   #138
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as much as i don't like what e90im is saying, since its a pretty gross stereotype, i suppose its prudent to point out that there are people of faith that deny science altogether.

like people who would just rely on prayer to heal a sickness instead of going to a doctor.

pretty weird bunch, i don't know much about that group of people though..

it's like that joke you hear, about the man who gets stranded on an island, and he prays and prays for God to rescue him. a helicopter flies by and asks if the man needs help and the man says, "no, God will rescue me". a boat passes by and asks the same thing. the man's reply is the same. "God will rescue me". after a while, the man dies and goes to heaven. when he's face to face with God, the man asks "God, why didn't you rescue me?"

God answers, "who do you think sent the helicopter and the boat?"
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      12-24-2007, 04:35 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FloridaBoy View Post
Your opinion on the flat earth is as confused as you are!
The Bible taught a spherical earth, before anyone at NASA ever existed!
Again you need to READ IT!
more about the Letronne flat-earth nonsense here:
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c034.html
Matthew:
"[T]he devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them"
(Matthew 4:1-12)
Certainly, if the earth were flat, standing atop "an exceedingly high mountain" would allow Jesus to see the whole earth, but there is no mountain tall enough to allow him to see the other side of a spherical earth. At most, one hemisphere would be seen, but not the other.
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      12-26-2007, 12:32 PM   #140
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Well, 2000 years ago, "all the world" did not imply all the Earth at all. After watching the images from 29,028 feet above sea level the other night on Everest, I was impressed!

And at one point, it was amazing that the shadow of Everest on the clouds BELOW it, was a pyramid!!!

How did Sir Edmund climb up there without all the fancy shite these guys wear, or without O's????!!!!!
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      12-26-2007, 12:49 PM   #141
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FloridaBoy..I will read that article...I think I missed the citing of any specific scripture about the shape of earth.

If I am denser than I thought, could you provide book,chapter and verse?

Thanks
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      12-28-2007, 05:01 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomwid View Post
One name: Hitler. Says it all. Go study some history.

And WTF do you think GW Bush did when he declared war on Iraq?

And don't forget the KKK, those assholes are Christian, too.
Your ignorance is on display.
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      12-28-2007, 07:22 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomwid View Post
Read some real info and learn:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler#Religious_beliefs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Terrorism

Stop reading fairy tales, you learn nothing reading those.
thanks for chiming in bro...thank our holy, omnipotent, intelligent and merciful lord that not all Floridians are born again Jesus fundamentalists...
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      12-28-2007, 07:23 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
Your ignorance is on display.
What ignorance? Please be specific! I'm really curious.
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      12-28-2007, 10:48 PM   #145
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Quote:
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FloridaBoy..I will read that article...I think I missed the citing of any specific scripture about the shape of earth.

If I am denser than I thought, could you provide book,chapter and verse?

Thanks
No problem... please see from that same article above:

"The Bible of course teaches the correct shape of the earth. Isaiah 40:22 says God sits above 'the circle of the earth' (the Hebrew word for 'circle' can also mean a 'sphere'). Also, Luke 17:34-36 depicts Christ's Second Coming as happening while some are asleep at night and others are working at day-time activities in the field-an indication of a rotating earth with day and night at the same time."

Plenty more on this here:
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c015.html
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      12-28-2007, 10:54 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im View Post
floridaboy,

If you use God to explain everything, you stagnate. Why research anything then?
Dude, I have not only trashed every one of your straw man arguments, I have already posted more RESEARCH in posts 133 and 136 than YOU have in your entire flaccid bloviation on this thread!
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      12-28-2007, 11:28 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FloridaBoy
Really, okay please show me some Baptists who are training 7 year old kids to blow themselves up while taking out a bunch of Muslims in a shopping mall, so they can escape the scales of judgement and make it to heaven per their doctrine.

Show me a 65 year old Presbyterian grandma who is training her grandaughter to cap off a pipe bomb on a crowded bus in the name of Jesus, so she can be a "good martyr," and make God proud.

Show me a group of blood-crazed Lutheran evangelists who have publicly declared "war on the great Satan, Islam" and who are actively teaching their kids to hate Jews with text books and songs in their private schools as part of the curriculum. I'm waiting...
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomwid View Post
One name: Hitler. Says it all. Go study some history.

And WTF do you think GW Bush did when he declared war on Iraq?

And don't forget the KKK, those assholes are Christian, too.
tomwid: I see nothing but hot air in your post...

1. Hitler – was not a Bible believer he was a pagan Darwinist (like Marx) with Catholic ties:
http://www.bede.org.uk/hitler.htm
http://www.catholiceducation.org/art...cts/fm0110.htm
http://www.christiancadre.org/topics/hitler.html
even if he was a "CINO", he did not teach a doctrine even CLOSE to Islam and he does not come close to fitting my request. Can you really see Hitler worshipping a Jewish carpenter? Put up or shut up!

2. GW Bush – is not even a religious leader, stop trying to politicize the debate! And even if your weak argument was true, I don't see any U.S. president declaring a "holy" war on the "great Satan of Islam" and training 10 year olds to detonate bombs. Can you provide what I asked for, put up or shut up!

3. The KKK – Not religious groups, not relevant to this discussion and not even close to the millions murdered by the global menace of Islam. But, nontheless—can you show me a case of the KKK of the great State of Alabama training school kids to hate out of text books? Here ya go:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13804825/

Can you show me a Baptist or Methodist church today with a Wednesday night KKK meeting for kids to train them to kill Muslims?
http://www.teachkidspeace.org/doc1021.php


tomwid: you'll have to do better than this weak reply!
You are dodging the question with general bloviation. You shouldn't have to pull out historical and political figures unless you are simply full of HOT AIR! You added nothing relevant to my question, and did not show me examples as I asked for, of kids being trained to hate and kill Muslims by christian churches and christian pastors. Where are they tomwid? Your comment about Christians was, "Christians don't understand what they practice is no different than what terrorists on the other side of the ocean practice."

Let's see it. Where are the Baptists, Presbyterians and Lutherans who are training their kids be terrorists in order to kill Muslims, now put up or shut up! I'm waiting...
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      12-29-2007, 12:20 AM   #148
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FloridaBoy brings the goods. The atheists can't score a point. Maybe you guys should stop trying to put down Christians in an attempt to elevate your status.

You don't need to divorce your mind from the science you believe in so strongly. Just understand that there is much more to life, the universe, and everything (to borrow a phrase from an atheist writer) than just science. You have boxed yourselves into a narrow view that does not benefit you or others.

It would seem best to take a different approach in this thread. This should be a discussion of theology rather than a quarreling place. When discussing science in this thread, it would be best to seek consensus on how we can coexist.
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      12-29-2007, 01:35 PM   #149
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floridaboy,

What does it matter whether Hitler was Christian or atheist? Or Stalin, or Napoleon???

There have been so many religious monsters (dark ages, inquisition, jihad, crusades) over the years. There have also been non religious nut jobs.

So again, your logic and rezoning is well below mediocre.
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      12-29-2007, 02:17 PM   #150
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floridaboy,

What arguments did you trash??? You donít know what research is.
Good research is when you find something you don't expect.
Great research is when you find something you donít LIKE.

Well, in a brilliant stroke of imagination, physicists have named this force "the strong force." ...The strong force is a force which attracts protons to protons, neutrons to neutrons, and protons and neutrons to each other." BLAH BLAH BLAH...

"This passage strongly suggests that the active power of God is behind the mysterious strong force that holds every atomic nucleus together. If this is so, all the other fundamental forces of nature are likewise forces that originate with Christ..."


Above paragraphs just blew my mind. You are deprived of basic reasoning skills and should be clinically observed.

But, the humanist that I am, Iíll help you go thru this 4th grade logic puzzle.

1. Science calls it the strong force
2. You say BLAH BLAH
3. Your conclusion: active power of God is behind the mysterious strong force

Summary: The strong force is not enough to solve the puzzle. Lets find something more puzzling than the puzzle itself: God. Who made God? If all complex things need a creator, who made the very complex God?

And not just any god. Itís the one that was born to a virgin mother, walked on water, had himself killed in a masochistic bizarre way, the one who equates women with ox and ass, the one who will forgive murderers and rapists but not non-believers.

So, in 2 seconds flat you go from unexplained to incorrect.
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      12-29-2007, 02:27 PM   #151
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floridaboy,

Again your logic is childish and laughable.

Explanation: You quote a retired physicist holding a degree with high honors in physics and distinction in mathematics from San Diego State University, and 30 years on the staff of SRI International (formerly Stanford Research Institute), in Menlo Park, California.

What does that prove? He is not providing any testable hypothesis, he is making conclusion based on the old fallacy known as the divine fallacy: We donít know exactly how it works, lets call it god and weíre done.

Why would we listen to him and not incredible number of other scientists that are explaining natural world with evidence and countless experiments.

Scientist is NOT the one with a diploma, but the one that applies scientific methods and thinks critically.

Your claim that god exists is no better than mine that it mustíve been the flying spaghetti monster that made earth and havens.

Why did you become a religious fundie? Scared of death? Youíve been dead for billions of years before you were bornÖitís no big deal really.

And right now, I wish that the islam is right and you and I have to stand before the Allah. Iíll laugh my ass off.
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      12-29-2007, 02:51 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FloridaBoy View Post
tomwid: I see nothing but hot air in your post...

1. Hitler – was not a Bible believer he was a pagan Darwinist (like Marx) with Catholic ties:
http://www.bede.org.uk/hitler.htm
http://www.catholiceducation.org/art...cts/fm0110.htm
http://www.christiancadre.org/topics/hitler.html
even if he was a "CINO", he did not teach a doctrine even CLOSE to Islam and he does not come close to fitting my request. Can you really see Hitler worshipping a Jewish carpenter? Put up or shut up!

2. GW Bush – is not even a religious leader, stop trying to politicize the debate! And even if your weak argument was true, I don't see any U.S. president declaring a "holy" war on the "great Satan of Islam" and training 10 year olds to detonate bombs. Can you provide what I asked for, put up or shut up!

3. The KKK – Not religious groups, not relevant to this discussion and not even close to the millions murdered by the global menace of Islam. But, nontheless—can you show me a case of the KKK of the great State of Alabama training school kids to hate out of text books? Here ya go:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13804825/

Can you show me a Baptist or Methodist church today with a Wednesday night KKK meeting for kids to train them to kill Muslims?
http://www.teachkidspeace.org/doc1021.php


tomwid: you'll have to do better than this weak reply!
You are dodging the question with general bloviation. You shouldn't have to pull out historical and political figures unless you are simply full of HOT AIR! You added nothing relevant to my question, and did not show me examples as I asked for, of kids being trained to hate and kill Muslims by christian churches and christian pastors. Where are they tomwid? Your comment about Christians was, "Christians don't understand what they practice is no different than what terrorists on the other side of the ocean practice."

Let's see it. Where are the Baptists, Presbyterians and Lutherans who are training their kids be terrorists in order to kill Muslims, now put up or shut up! I'm waiting...

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1007-03.htm

Bush: God Told Me to Invade Iraq
President 'revealed reasons for war in private meeting'
by Rupert Cornwell

President George Bush has claimed he was told by God to invade Iraq and attack Osama bin Laden's stronghold of Afghanistan as part of a divine mission to bring peace to the Middle East, security for Israel, and a state for the Palestinians.

-- Another reason the mo-fo should hang in HAGUE with other war criminals!!!

BUT, it is still unbelieveble how many GOATS like you (FloridaBoy) bought that crap from him...
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      12-29-2007, 03:37 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1007-03.htm

Bush: God Told Me to Invade Iraq
President 'revealed reasons for war in private meeting'
by Rupert Cornwell

President George Bush has claimed he was told by God to invade Iraq and attack Osama bin Laden's stronghold of Afghanistan as part of a divine mission to bring peace to the Middle East, security for Israel, and a state for the Palestinians.
Do you really believe this? Did you crossreference your information? Compare it with other sources and see if you can draw the same conclusion you jump on. Just like so many people, you find some bit of info that would seem to support what you already think. You don't care about the truth. You care about promoting your biased point of view. You go on and on about proof for everything, yet you prove absolutely nothing yourself.

Here is one contradictory source for you to consider:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabil_Shaath

BTW: Other parts of the article you cited support what I would hope to see in any president... Specifically, that they seek God's will and favor. If the account I excerpted from the article is not true, then that is too bad. This is how decision making should be once all the pertinent information has been gathered and advisor's recommendations have been received.
He told Bob Woodward - whose 2004 book, Plan of Attack, is the definitive account of the administration's road to war in Iraq - that after giving the order to invade in March 2003, he walked in the White House garden, praying "that our troops be safe, be protected by the Almighty". As he went into this critical period, he told Mr Woodward, "I was praying for strength to do the Lord's will.

"I'm surely not going to justify war based upon God. Understand that. Nevertheless, in my case, I pray that I will be as good a messenger of His will as possible. And then of course, I pray for forgiveness."

Another telling sign of Mr Bush's religion was his answer to Mr Woodward's question on whether he had asked his father - the former president who refused to launch a full-scale invasion of Iraq after driving Saddam Hussein from Kuwait in 1991 - for advice on what to do.

The current President replied that his earthly father was "the wrong father to appeal to for advice ... there is a higher father that I appeal to".
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      12-29-2007, 05:38 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1007-03.htm

Bush: God Told Me to Invade Iraq
President 'revealed reasons for war in private meeting'
by Rupert Cornwell

President George Bush has claimed he was told by God to invade Iraq and attack Osama bin Laden's stronghold of Afghanistan as part of a divine mission to bring peace to the Middle East, security for Israel, and a state for the Palestinians.

-- Another reason the mo-fo should hang in HAGUE with other war criminals!!!

BUT, it is still unbelieveble how many GOATS like you (FloridaBoy) bought that crap from him...
GW Bush – is not even a religious leader, stop trying to politicize the debate! And even if your weak argument was true, I don't see any U.S. president declaring a "holy" war on the "great Satan of Islam" and training 10 year olds to detonate bombs. Can you provide what I asked for, put up or shut up!

You have added NOTHING to my request other than a personal insult calling me a goat, like a whining teenage girl on pink telephone, anyone else want to answer for tomwid? NOW PUT UP OR SHUT UP!
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Last edited by FloridaBoy; 12-29-2007 at 05:54 PM.
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