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View Poll Results: Do Christians drive BMWs? (Another way of asking Are you...?)
Yes, I am Christian. 151 55.31%
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I don't know if I am a Christian. 5 1.83%
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I was a Christian, but not anymore. 23 8.42%
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      11-18-2007, 05:58 AM   #89
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Powerfull as it may be, it is based on misconceptions of Islam. I remember you posted these a while back and you keep doing it. You only need to get in as far as 2 minutes to hear his first misconception, but then we get deeper into his web of lies and misconceptions.

Put it this way, why FloridaBoy, out of ALL the muslims that have ever lived on the face of this earth do you take HIS interpretation of Islam to be correct and try use it as a weapon against us? What gives you such a guarantee that he ever understood Islam perfectly in the first place?

I see why you might take his word to be true though. He speaks with such (foolish) confidence and you think he knows Islam because he was a muslim before. He then twists the story from muslims spilling blood to saying basically "I dont need to spill blood because Jesus done it for me". While that might sound good to us that doesnt mean it's true. He tried to even include politics and things happening in the world today into his arguements and it just didnt work. The sad thing is that people fall for his lies.

Maybe we should remember what Jesus (AS) said, that even FALSE prophets can perform such miracles and wonders as to fool the strongest of believers. That's why we cant take things at face value. He appears to be truthful but he is not. Allah sees all and knows this.
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      11-18-2007, 06:55 PM   #90
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Im muslim and im proud.
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      11-18-2007, 07:01 PM   #91
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this thread is and unjustly gives Christians a bad reputation of being sectarian IMHO.
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      11-20-2007, 07:34 PM   #92
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Question: Does being Christian means the following?

1. A man was born to a virgin mother with no biological fater being involved
2. The fatherless man came alive after being dead and buried for three days
3. 40 days later, the fatherless man went up to the top of a hill and then disappeared bodily into the sky
4. If you murmur thoughts privatly in your head, the fatherless man and his father (who is also himself) will hear your thoughts and may act upon them
5. If you do something bad, or something good, the same fatherless man sees all, even if nobody else does. You may be rewarded or punished accordingly, including after your death

If the answer is yes, I'd rather be SantaClaus-istian. Same quality evidence supports both movements. Savvy?
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      11-20-2007, 07:43 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 06E90Rostik View Post
Time to watch that "Passion of the Christ" cry, confess and beg for forgiveness before the big Holiday (Easter)

BTW do people know that Easter is more then just bunnies and egg hunt?
Time to open Webster's dictionary and look up word: DELUSION....
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      11-27-2007, 06:48 PM   #94
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This thread is dying. I think Christians are fat cats. Lazy. WWJD? He would post.

P.S. Call me crazy, but what do you think about replacing roundel with a cross? Or even better, a fish symbol?
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      11-27-2007, 06:50 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mantis View Post
this thread is and unjustly gives Christians a bad reputation of being sectarian IMHO.
I think a world of you. You've got a lots of posts. Do you get any seniority for that?
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      11-28-2007, 09:47 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im View Post
Question: Does being Christian means the following?

1. A man was born to a virgin mother with no biological fater being involved
2. The fatherless man came alive after being dead and buried for three days
3. 40 days later, the fatherless man went up to the top of a hill and then disappeared bodily into the sky
4. If you murmur thoughts privatly in your head, the fatherless man and his father (who is also himself) will hear your thoughts and may act upon them
5. If you do something bad, or something good, the same fatherless man sees all, even if nobody else does. You may be rewarded or punished accordingly, including after your death

If the answer is yes, I'd rather be SantaClaus-istian. Same quality evidence supports both movements. Savvy?

Actually, Yes. The apostles creed is exatly as you paraphrased above.
Verbatim:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell. [See Calvin]

The third day He arose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.
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      11-28-2007, 11:35 AM   #97
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This thread is dying. I think Christians are fat cats. Lazy. WWJD? He would post.

P.S. Call me crazy, but what do you think about replacing roundel with a cross? Or even better, a fish symbol?
Look, we all post here observing the utmost respect for one another, regardless of what you believe. hks and I have pretty much proven that we believe completely different things, but we still respect one another. Besides, with your immature comments you're not gaining any credibility in the thread. Bottom line- If you have something to add to the thread, please do. If you're just going to make sarcasatic comments about posts made months ago, then you belong in a different forum.
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      11-28-2007, 01:18 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
Look, we all post here observing the utmost respect for one another, regardless of what you believe. hks and I have pretty much proven that we believe completely different things, but we still respect one another. Besides, with your immature comments you're not gaining any credibility in the thread. Bottom line- If you have something to add to the thread, please do. If you're just going to make sarcasatic comments about posts made months ago, then you belong in a different forum.
Why are you offended? You make the most extraordinary claim (existance of God) and your evidence is a man made book. Well be ready to be questioned! You and I live in the same political system and your belief in supernatural, and not facts and evidence, hurts me on election day. It's as simple as that.

I will question your religion just like I would question everything else. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
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      11-28-2007, 07:08 PM   #99
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Why are you offended? You make the most extraordinary claim (existance of God) and your evidence is a man made book. Well be ready to be questioned! You and I live in the same political system and your belief in supernatural, and not facts and evidence, hurts me on election day. It's as simple as that.

I will question your religion just like I would question everything else. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Yet again you lose all credibility. I said nothing about not questioning me, my beliefs, Santa Claus, or anything you can think of. I didn't say that. I said show some respect and quit belittling people. Any one of us could fire back at you and call you any name we choose too, but thats not what this thread was originally created to become. If you would read the thread, my beliefs have been questioned and I have replied with Biblical answers for each of them. If you don't believe in the Bible, thats fine, you don't have to agree with my replies, but show respect. If you still can't figure this respect thing out then stop posting here.
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      11-28-2007, 07:11 PM   #100
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I think a world of you. You've got a lots of posts. Do you get any seniority for that?
yah im senior principal post whore on here they even boosted me up to 85 years old
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      11-28-2007, 08:09 PM   #101
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yah im senior principal post whore on here they even boosted me up to 85 years old
WOW, you're the MAN!
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      11-28-2007, 08:31 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
Yet again you lose all credibility. I said nothing about not questioning me, my beliefs, Santa Claus, or anything you can think of. I didn't say that. I said show some respect and quit belittling people. Any one of us could fire back at you and call you any name we choose too, but thats not what this thread was originally created to become. If you would read the thread, my beliefs have been questioned and I have replied with Biblical answers for each of them. If you don't believe in the Bible, thats fine, you don't have to agree with my replies, but show respect. If you still can't figure this respect thing out then stop posting here.
Biblical answers?!?! Are you kidding me? It's a BOOK!! It's been ambiguously (on purpose) re-written many times by humans. It doesn't have one natural law explained in it, and you take it for granted???? This is what worries me the most. Your decision making is based on what your religious leader says. You are not a free thinker and yet you VOTE!!!

You say that I belittle people. Not true, I am a secular humanist; I want people to wake up from this nonsense that religion propagates.

We are at the point where religion shouldn’t be questioned. Why not? No one has monopoly on truth!!

I'm trying to provoke a rational critical thinker in people like you. The one that negotiates a deal when buying a BMW, that sees thru dealer tricks. The person that balances his checkbook. Yet blindly believes in fantasy stories.

Until recently I didn't care, but religious right in this country is in my face. You propagate intelligent design, faith based initiative! You VOTE based on your fate. Fate is by definition belief without evidence. And that’s why we are in Iraq.

Wake up. Freedom will set you free….
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      11-28-2007, 08:32 PM   #103
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Quote:
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WOW, you're the MAN!
damn.. those vacation days dropped my post count per day
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      11-28-2007, 08:46 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mantis View Post
damn.. those vacation days dropped my post count per day
BTW, who holds the post record? Is there a list?

I'm actually not being sarcastic this time.
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      11-28-2007, 10:49 PM   #105
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e90im - i think the reason why Alpine said the things he said is because in the discussion of faith and "religion" for the past few pages there have been a mutual respect and acceptance of each other's beliefs without forcing their opinions on others. on the contrary, you have come shooting out of the blocks proclaiming that what everyone is believing is "wrong" and that believers needed to "wake up".

can you possibly accept the fact that people of faith have actually thought FREELY on the subject and still chose to follow their God?

Unfortunately for you (and for the people of faith) that we have the freedom of choice. as much as you cannot understand why people choose faith, the same can be said of you (ie people of faith cannot understand why you would choose living life for yourself).

i've chosen my words very carefully when writing this so in future we'd appreciate if you'd do the same. Thanks.
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      11-29-2007, 12:12 AM   #106
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Quote:
No one has monopoly on truth!!
but the truth isnt contingent on anyone. truth is truth no matter what you believe. so, it's still up in the air isn't it? God could be real. or maybe not. the fact is, no one can prove anything.

consider this for example. how do we know that on a good day, the sky is blue? maybe everyone's eyes are screwed up somehow and what we see as blue is really green. so.. does that make the sky blue or green?

let's take the above example as truth for a moment. you're going to be the guy that will believe the sky is blue because that is what you see. people of religious faith will believe that the sky is green because in some ancient book somewhere, it says the sky is really green, but we see blue because our eyes are messed up.

or maybe this book will be wrong and say the sky is red. then everyone is wrong. you see? the truth is not contingent on what we believe or think we know.

i believe that the sky, on a good day, is truly blue because i have faith that my eyes are telling me the truth.

so here's my point. science can only explain what we can observe and measure and reproduce. but don't you think that there are things that we can't see? or measure? or reproduce? if science can't explain something, isn't any conclusion after that based on faith? additionally, what if what we see, measure or reproduce isn't true to begin with? won't any conclusion based on it be wrong?

when it comes to God, you're as much a man of faith as everyone else.

anyway, this is off topic. you're better off challenging christians in the thread here about Jesus.
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      11-29-2007, 04:35 PM   #107
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but the truth isnt contingent on anyone. truth is truth no matter what you believe. so, it's still up in the air isn't it? God could be real. or maybe not. the fact is, no one can prove anything.

consider this for example. how do we know that on a good day, the sky is blue? maybe everyone's eyes are screwed up somehow and what we see as blue is really green. so.. does that make the sky blue or green?

let's take the above example as truth for a moment. you're going to be the guy that will believe the sky is blue because that is what you see. people of religious faith will believe that the sky is green because in some ancient book somewhere, it says the sky is really green, but we see blue because our eyes are messed up.

or maybe this book will be wrong and say the sky is red. then everyone is wrong. you see? the truth is not contingent on what we believe or think we know.

i believe that the sky, on a good day, is truly blue because i have faith that my eyes are telling me the truth.

so here's my point. science can only explain what we can observe and measure and reproduce. but don't you think that there are things that we can't see? or measure? or reproduce? if science can't explain something, isn't any conclusion after that based on faith? additionally, what if what we see, measure or reproduce isn't true to begin with? won't any conclusion based on it be wrong?

when it comes to God, you're as much a man of faith as everyone else.

anyway, this is off topic. you're better off challenging christians in the thread here about Jesus.
All valid points.

My main point in this debate is that there is a lot we don’t know. That science hasn't figured out. But we must not explain the unknown with God, because, learning and search for truth would stop right there and then.

if science can't explain something, isn't any conclusion after that based on faith?

If you mean faith in god:
Please be patient. Don't jump to conclusion that currently inexplicable proves existence of supernatural. Science is hard work and it takes time to answer big questions.

If you mean faith as a way of reaching into unknown and proposing hypothesis:
Science is very strict about this. If you have a extraordinary theory, it must withstand an extraordinary scrutiny before it becomes accepted. At the first evidence that causes it to crumble, it will be rejected.

additionally, what if what we see, measure or reproduce isn't true to begin with? won't any conclusion based on it be wrong?

Well, now we are entering the area of deep philosophy and Matrix movies.
Is it possible? Yes. But we must start somewhere and trust our senses because laws of science that came from those senses are testable and repeatable.

Have you ever been in Hong Kong? (If you have, use a city that you haven't been in). How do you know if it really exists? Philosophically, you don't.
But with this mindset, we'd be paralyzed to do anything.
So you apply critical thinking and say: Is it likely that there is a conspiracy about Hong Kong existence? Are all the evidence…photos, satellite images etc are just there to convince me in it's existence? What would be the motive? Who would profit from that? Or is it just more simple and elegant explanation that it exists. This is called Occam’s razor.


RELIGION TAKES AUTHORITY AS THE TRUTH. SCIENCE TAKES TRUTH AS AUTHORITY.
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      11-29-2007, 08:39 PM   #108
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you have great points too.

so here's the thing. i don't believe everyone of faith uses God as a crutch to explain the unknown. perhaps it may have been done in the past, or it may be going on now with certain people. but let's not stereotype everyone of faith as ignorant or deluded.

i became a christian when i was in college, 1 year into my study as a comp sci major. if you know anything about engineering or comp sci, it's pretty heavy on physics (took 3 years of it between high school to college, and add on astrophysics to boot) and math. so first and foremost, i know much about the scientific process, logic, critical thinking.. and yet, i became a believer.

why? did i all of a sudden lose my mind? or was i brainwashed?

or could it be because there's really something there?

you mentioned critical thinking in regards to your HK analogy, and your examples are perfect because no science can ever justify a person's faith in God.

but first a disclaimer: i'm not trying to convince you of anything, just letting you what my thought process was when i was deciding whether i should believe in what the bible says or not.

so my biggest struggle was whether i could trust what the bible said about Jesus. i mean, if you ever read any 1 of the gospels, you would also admit it was a great story of love and redemption. but is it true?

let's take a look at the writers. what did they really have to gain from writing the gospels in the bible? when you think about it, NOTHING. they weren't out for money, or fame. in fact, being associated with Christ was a BAD thing. christians were being put in jail, beaten on the street and even killed for what they believe. all they had to do to escape the persecution was to recant, but they didn't. why? why would so many people risk such pain for a lie? especially the original followers who were with Jesus when he was alive and then crucified? could it be that Jesus was indeed resurrected on the third day? if not, where was the body? how could a body in a tomb with a giant boulder blocking it, with roman soldiers guarding, be taken away without anyone noticing?

another point that helped me to believe was this. no one would believe the person known as Jesus Christ didn't really exist. there are enough historical documents that tell about this man and what happened to Him. the best evidence would be the roman and jewish documents since they were anti-christian at the time. they obviously wouldn't corroborate everything in the bible 100% but it was safe for me to conclude the following

1. Jesus existed and live in the first century
2. He was a moral teacher of sorts that was able to perform miracles (or witchcraft, depending on who you ask)
3. Was crucified for blasphemy by pontius pilate

third point is this. people like to question the validity of the bible, saying that it was corrupted and sensationalized to become a legend rather than a historical account of Jesus. Christians believe that the original manuscripts that has made up the bible is the true, inerrant word of God. however, the copies and translations... not so much. but here's the thing: with so many ancient copies to compare, way more than any other undisputed ancient manuscript, we can verify that what we have right now isn't off by that much. if you have 20 copies of something, and they all say pretty much the same thing, can't we assume that the copies are good? basically, there are so many other ancient manuscripts that people accept as truth with much less to stand on than the bible. they have less copies, there was more time between the event and the documentation of the event. if we can accept these as valid manuscripts, why not the bible?

after all of this, and also a personal experience of God, i decided that God was real, and what the bible said about Jesus is true.
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      11-29-2007, 09:05 PM   #109
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I'm glad that I can debate you. And I'm not being sarcastic. You are privy to critical thinking and you seek evidence before making decision. I'm respectfully asking you to do the following:

1. You say that you had personal experience of God.
If you don't mind, please elaborate on this.

2. You claim that God is real

Would you agree that the definition of real is:
a. being an actual thing; having objective existence; not imaginary
b. actual as opposed to possible or potential.
c. independent of experience as opposed to phenomenal or apparent

So, undetectable, zero-physical-evidence entity wouldn't qualify as real.

3. Even if Jesus existed, that doesn't prove that God exists.

4. I would really like to hear your opinion on this movie as you know a lot about Christianity. Just watch 1st part about religion.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...95115331&hl=en

Thanks.
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      11-29-2007, 10:40 PM   #110
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Quote:
1. You say that you had personal experience of God.
If you don't mind, please elaborate on this.
it's hard to describe in a way that won't make me sound silly to a person like you who doesn't believe in this stuff. maybe i'll try another time after i've thought about it.

Quote:
2. You claim that God is real

Would you agree that the definition of real is:
a. being an actual thing; having objective existence; not imaginary
b. actual as opposed to possible or potential.
c. independent of experience as opposed to phenomenal or apparent
i suppose i could agree for now

Quote:
So, undetectable, zero-physical-evidence entity wouldn't qualify as real.
doesn't that go against rule c (if i understand it correctly)?

Quote:
3. Even if Jesus existed, that doesn't prove that God exists.
no, but if the bible tells the truth, then God is real. the bible says that we can see the evidence of God through the things He's created. do you really believe in the big bang theory? do you think we can put all the parts of a clock in a box, shake it up real good and we'll get a perfectly working clock from it? occam's razor: someone had to have made that clock, with purpose and intent. i think that the world being formed by some awesome feat of chance is more unlikely than God being the creator of it.

take our solar system as another example. i studied astrophysics and learned how the sun, each planet, each moon, their orbits have a perfect balance in the laws of physics. if one thing was to change it's course or it's size, it would change everything else and break that balance that has sustained life on Earth the way it does. i don't have an answer on life on other planets, but i'm pretty sure that there is no other planet in our solar system like Earth.

to me, that requires intelligent design.

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4. I would really like to hear your opinion on this movie as you know a lot about Christianity. Just watch 1st part about religion.
i saw it before and indeed it's interesting, but my biggest objection to this movie is the person or group that made it. if you visit their website and read their list of sources, you will see that every one of their sources in regards to Christianity is anti-christian. should we trust such an obviously biased movie? it would've been more credible to have primary resources regarding these ancient characters so other people can check these sources and make their own conclusion, which is what i wanted to do but since no primary sources were cited, i couldn't find anything.

so, this movie isn't really a documentary from scholarly research. more like elementary regurgitation of "see spot run"....

i didn't read this page myself, but this site is gaining my trust a little bit. it deals with copy-cat theorists: http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/copycathub.html
its ray den is offline  
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