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View Poll Results: Do Christians drive BMWs? (Another way of asking Are you...?)
Yes, I am Christian. 151 55.31%
No, I am not Christian. 79 28.94%
I don't know if I am a Christian. 5 1.83%
What is a Christian? 15 5.49%
I was a Christian, but not anymore. 23 8.42%
I would like to be a Christian. 0 0%
Voters: 273. You may not vote on this poll

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      07-15-2007, 11:09 AM   #67
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Spoken like someone who has no concept of a loving God who would take a sinner's place on the cross. How could you my friend, you have been eating the styrofoam of man's religion and you have no real relationship with your creator. No matter what others may say, this Allah of yours is not the living God of the Bible. Your only hope of salvation is the blood of God himself. (Acts 20:28)

I hope and pray you will turn from Islam, accept God's payment for your sins and you will find out he has a great plan for your life. Somewhere along that journey you will be amazed to find out just how much God really loves people... including you. Peace.
We do have a relationship with Allah, I can speak for myself because I am a practising muslim. I feel closer to Allah when I read the Quran and when I pray. That relationship is something spiritual and noone can say if it is there or not there since I am the one who experiences it.

Another problem I have is when you speak of "God's payment for MY sins". Why should God or anyone pay for MY sins? The noble Quran tells us that each soul will earn it's own reward and not even the deed the "size of a musterseed" will be unaccounted for. That my friend, is a much simpler concept which I find to be full of justice and truth.
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      07-15-2007, 11:11 AM   #68
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I'm gonna be away for a few days but I will come back and reply to everyone's posts including Alpines. I started a reply but it's only half way and I'm gonna be away for a few days so I'll finish it when I return. Peace.
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      07-15-2007, 07:09 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
I'm gonna be away for a few days but I will come back and reply to everyone's posts including Alpines. I started a reply but it's only half way and I'm gonna be away for a few days so I'll finish it when I return. Peace.
Funny you say that, because I'm gone until Friday. Hope everyone has a great week. hks, if you happen to read this before you leave- Why should God pay for my sins? John 3:16- He loves us. This love is unlike any other. Not anywhere near human love- this is unconditional love. No matter how much we sin, no matter how much we do wrong, He still loves us just the same. He doesn't want us to go to hell. He wants to spend eternity with us- but because we sin, and the Bible says the only way to repay sin is to die (go to hell) we don't just automatically get a free ticket to heaven.

I'm just going to put the whole hygiene argument to rest here.. hks, I think its awesome that you value hygiene. I think its definitely a good thing that hygiene is a big part of Islam. Who doesn't like being clean. That being said, we can end it just agreeing to disagree, I suppose. I love being clean, too, but God the Father, the Creator does not require us to perform some ritual or act to be able to speak to Him. Jesus is the bridge. I realize you don't agree with this, but its what I believe, and what the Bible teaches.

Hope you have a great week. I'll be back this coming weekend.

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      07-16-2007, 10:20 AM   #70
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Alpine,

I'm no scholar, just a beleiver, but you can't say the Bible has not been changed over the millenia, it clearly has. The now popular King James bible is based on earlier English translations that compared the Roman Catholic Latin versions with the previous Greek versions of the New testament. I sorry, but do you really think Jesus or his diciples spoke/wrote Greek?

Until I can learn to read Aremaic, and get my hands on the scrolls the actual letters were written on, there is something of distrust in the written words. But not what is written in my heart, what I beleive is the true nature of God's love, and my freedom from sin by beleif in the risen Jesus.

I was raised in the Roman Catholic tradition, maybe you are of a different tradition of Christian faith, but we both beleive that Jesus is our path to the eternal salvation with God.

Just as there are "radical Muslims" we Christians have our fair share of corruption in the church. Witht he recent publicity surrounding alter boys/priests, I have to say there is a problem. The vow is one of celibacy, not a vow not to have sex with women. . .
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      07-17-2007, 09:31 PM   #71
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Spoken like someone who has no concept of a loving God who would take a sinner's place on the cross. How could you my friend, you have been eating the styrofoam of man's religion and you have no real relationship with your creator. No matter what others may say, this Allah of yours is not the living God of the Bible. Your only hope of salvation is the blood of God himself. (Acts 20:28)

I hope and pray you will turn from Islam, accept God's payment for your sins and you will find out he has a great plan for your life. Somewhere along that journey you will be amazed to find out just how much God really loves people... including you. Peace.
Much of what passes for Christianity in North America is nothing more than a justification of selfish, intolerant and bigoted behavior. How else do you explain an environment in which people can claim to hold Christian beliefs and live by Christian values, yet support profiteering from war, enact policies that further entrench global poverty, directly or indirectly condone torture, child labor and brutal human rights abuses on the part of those with whom they do business? Somehow you're able to separate these actions from the religion, yet you can't do the same for those who act terribly in the name of Islam?

The quotations you're offering up are an excuse for reasoned argument, which is also a hallmark of most religious extremists. No doubt you'll console yourself by suggesting I simply need to see the way and find Jesus, but like I said that's because you're not challenging yourself by engaging in the reasoned discourse that is one of the things that makes us human.
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      07-28-2007, 08:37 AM   #72
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Just to inject a little reality, the oldest bibles are the Cocex Sinaiticus and the Codex Vaticanus. Both are 4th century works and both differ markedly from current bibles.
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      07-28-2007, 09:16 AM   #73
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There are no Christian BMW drivers.

A true christian would not drive a BMW. He or she would have used all the money to help those worse off - the poor, weak and miserable - following the example of Jesus.

You don't need a BMW, it's strictly a selfish indulgence and sinful on so many levels it's bound to land your ass in hell.
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      07-29-2007, 11:31 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by aspiring335 View Post
Much of what passes for Christianity in North America is nothing more than a justification of selfish, intolerant and bigoted behavior. How else do you explain an environment in which people can claim to hold Christian beliefs and live by Christian values, yet support profiteering from war, enact policies that further entrench global poverty, directly or indirectly condone torture, child labor and brutal human rights abuses on the part of those with whom they do business? Somehow you're able to separate these actions from the religion, yet you can't do the same for those who act terribly in the name of Islam?

The quotations you're offering up are an excuse for reasoned argument, which is also a hallmark of most religious extremists. No doubt you'll console yourself by suggesting I simply need to see the way and find Jesus, but like I said that's because you're not challenging yourself by engaging in the reasoned discourse that is one of the things that makes us human.
Very well said.
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      08-02-2007, 11:38 AM   #75
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Much of what passes for Christianity in North America is nothing more than a justification of selfish, intolerant and bigoted behavior. How else do you explain an environment in which people can claim to hold Christian beliefs and live by Christian values, yet support profiteering from war, enact policies that further entrench global poverty, directly or indirectly condone torture, child labor and brutal human rights abuses on the part of those with whom they do business? Somehow you're able to separate these actions from the religion, yet you can't do the same for those who act terribly in the name of Islam?

The quotations you're offering up are an excuse for reasoned argument, which is also a hallmark of most religious extremists. No doubt you'll console yourself by suggesting I simply need to see the way and find Jesus, but like I said that's because you're not challenging yourself by engaging in the reasoned discourse that is one of the things that makes us human.
Good points raised here...
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      08-02-2007, 11:39 AM   #76
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Just to inject a little reality, the oldest bibles are the Cocex Sinaiticus and the Codex Vaticanus. Both are 4th century works and both differ markedly from current bibles.
Well that's another problem, we could get into a whole new debate purely about the bible manuscripts...
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      08-02-2007, 03:55 PM   #77
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Funny you say that, because I'm gone until Friday. Hope everyone has a great week. hks, if you happen to read this before you leave- Why should God pay for my sins? John 3:16- He loves us. This love is unlike any other. Not anywhere near human love- this is unconditional love. No matter how much we sin, no matter how much we do wrong, He still loves us just the same. He doesn't want us to go to hell. He wants to spend eternity with us- but because we sin, and the Bible says the only way to repay sin is to die (go to hell) we don't just automatically get a free ticket to heaven.

I'm just going to put the whole hygiene argument to rest here.. hks, I think its awesome that you value hygiene. I think its definitely a good thing that hygiene is a big part of Islam. Who doesn't like being clean. That being said, we can end it just agreeing to disagree, I suppose. I love being clean, too, but God the Father, the Creator does not require us to perform some ritual or act to be able to speak to Him. Jesus is the bridge. I realize you don't agree with this, but its what I believe, and what the Bible teaches.

Hope you have a great week. I'll be back this coming weekend.

Alpine
Then I guess we can just put our difference down to COMPLETELY different theological viewpoints.

One problem I have with Christianity is that I feel the whole idea of Jesus paying for our sins doesnt really work. Infact it's theologically impossible, even according to many parts of the bible. But saying that, I do agree with you that we don't have a free ticket to heaven.

I also disagree with the idea of "original sin". Yes Adam and Eve (pbut) sinned BUT we muslims believe that was all part of Allah's plan. If you read the Quran you will recall that Allah exercised the quality of forgiveness after Adam - the first man - learned a vital lesson that he must ask for forgiveness after sinning. Also, Adam (pbuh) learned about how the devil can trick us.

Also, Allah says in the Holy Quran that "man was created weak". Can we argue with this? no, of course not. We are not perfect like other creations such as angels. We disobey Allah and we seek forgiveness. Therefore the idea of "original sin" doesnt work since we believe God created us "weak" as part of his plan! Allah also says in the Holy Quran that he is the wise one, the most merciful and the best of planners!

Moreover, I feel the idea of original sin doesnt work since this earth was designed for human life. According to the bible, because of Adam and Eve's (pbut) sin, women will forever bear children in pain and man will have to "eat bread with the sweat of his forehead" and "gather food from among thornes". I feel that this doesnt really work. We are on this earth to be tested, it is the purpose of our creation! not to be simply punished for Adam and Eve (pbuh)'s sin. I can also prove in a thousand ways according to science, that the Earth is specifically designed for human life (and other life forms such as animals and plants!)...
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      08-04-2007, 05:12 AM   #78
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Alpine,

I'm no scholar, just a beleiver, but you can't say the Bible has not been changed over the millenia, it clearly has. The now popular King James bible is based on earlier English translations that compared the Roman Catholic Latin versions with the previous Greek versions of the New testament. I sorry, but do you really think Jesus or his diciples spoke/wrote Greek?

Until I can learn to read Aremaic, and get my hands on the scrolls the actual letters were written on, there is something of distrust in the written words. But not what is written in my heart, what I beleive is the true nature of God's love, and my freedom from sin by beleif in the risen Jesus.

I was raised in the Roman Catholic tradition, maybe you are of a different tradition of Christian faith, but we both beleive that Jesus is our path to the eternal salvation with God.

Just as there are "radical Muslims" we Christians have our fair share of corruption in the church. Witht he recent publicity surrounding alter boys/priests, I have to say there is a problem. The vow is one of celibacy, not a vow not to have sex with women. . .
Firstly, I'm glad you admit the many alterations that have been made to the Bible. I'm not trying to make you feel small or anything because I do respect everyone's beliefs, but if we study the history of the Bible we can see many things...

The first problem is who gave the authority to choose the 4 gospels, I have studied this and I just cant see how it can be the word of God when we see how the gospels were selected. Also, it doesnt help when people cannot admit that many gospels and letters were burned because the Church didnt agree with them. I mean, it makes me wonder just how much of GOD'S word we have in the Bible. Infact the whole of Christianity relies on the Bible and what it teaches/records so we begin to have serious doubts about what it says. Again, I say this with respect.

Even when the Gospels were chosen we can see many contradictions and alterations etc. It has even been proven that people have added phrases like "Son of God" that did not appear in the oldest manuscripts. We even see the heightening of Jesus' position and he has progessively been elevated to a divine position. This cannot be argued with, since the Gospel writers themselves record the SAME events differently and later Gospels try to promote Jesus as God/Son of God. The trinity is also widely contradicted in the Bible and noone has yet made it possible for the trinity to be understood with any logic!

Oh yeah, you also mentioned "radical muslims". Regarding this, all I'm going to say is that I would not attack Chrisitianity (the religion itself) or the Bible based on what "Christians" do. If people do not follow Christianity, I will not choose that as an arguement to attack the religion. I don't do this because I know it is unfair and I personally hate it when people use "radical muslims" to attack Islam. Islam does not permit terrorism....

What I'm really trying to say is that since we depend on the Bible for faith, what remains of our faith when we study the entire history of the Bible? Faith has to be based on something and cannot just be something that appeals to people because they like the theology of it. I say this with respect and love for fellow humans because we are all brothers. I hope we all find the truth some day, may Allah guide us all.
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      08-06-2007, 10:21 AM   #79
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If I was the Son of God I would drive this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugatti_Veyron_16.4

I would have one in every colour to go with my clothing for the day. I would never lower myself to a BMW
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      10-19-2007, 12:37 PM   #80
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I havent' read through all the posts but it seems like many are questioning the way so called "Christians" live their lives. I am a Christian and I agree that it is a big issue. I believe that I am saved through Christ and Christ alone. There is no deed that I do that can earn my way into heaven. That being said, many so called Christians live their lives exactly like that. They don't live Christ-like lives believing they are saved. I honestly believe that a person that truly accepts Christ as their Lord AND Savior they will act accordingly, not because they have to but because they want to. There is a reason why I capitalized the 'AND' in Lord AND Savior. Many accept Jesus Christ as their savior because they want to go into heaven, but you need to accept him as your Lord as well, and obey his commands. Am I saying you need to live a perfect Christian life? No, of course not. We are all sinners, that is why He died on the cross for us, so we don't have to die for our sins. But, Christians need to repent. Repenting is not only saying sorry for your sins but honestly saying to yourself that you will try not to commit that same sin again.

On a sidenote, I dont understand why people think that Christians need to live in poverty and should not have nice things like a BMW. The bible does not say you cannot be wealthy and have nice things. It also does not say you need to spend all your money on charitable things and Church.
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      10-19-2007, 01:39 PM   #81
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But it is easier for the camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to heaven
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      11-01-2007, 04:50 PM   #82
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The Easter Bunny is fake.....just like Santa Claus.
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      11-13-2007, 06:04 PM   #83
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Wow I haven't seen this thread in a while. Hope you're doing well, hks. I'm not really in the super writing mood as I just got out of class.. 8-430.. phew. Like I said above..(in July) I'm not here to convert anyone, I am only here to tell the Truth according to the Word of God. I completely agree with day1yun in that not everyone who claims to be a christian is actually a follower of Jesus Christ... which is the main purpose of it all. Going to church doesn't save you, being a good person doesn't save you, living in the United States doesn't save you.

I don't understand why non-christians immediately assume that Christians are uneducated, nieve, stupid.. you name it. I'm going to med school next year, I've been pounded for the past 4 years by the most liberal evolutionist biology professors, I've had philosophy, english, government, astronomy classes where I had to defend my opinion against the entire class... and honestly, it only made my belief stronger. Studying how incredibly complex everything is only strengthens my belief that there's no way that this just evolved when nature's tendency is to go towards entropy (2nd law of thermodynamics). This is not directed towards anyone specifically... I just get tired people talking about Christians like they're complete idiots because they have faith.
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      11-14-2007, 02:59 AM   #84
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Wow I haven't seen this thread in a while. Hope you're doing well, hks
I'm good. long time no see bro

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I just get tired people talking about Christians like they're complete idiots because they have faith.
I hope I dont talk like that. I only like to study where the faith came from. Faith cant be based on nothing, because if the Bible didnt exist there would be Christianity. That shows how important the text is, its where people base their beliefs
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      11-14-2007, 08:49 AM   #85
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Oh no I definitely wasn't talking about you. You always post with respect and I appreciate that!
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      11-14-2007, 10:32 AM   #86
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Hey Alpine

Yeah, DESPITE my education (4.0 high school, oopps, don't go to UCSB if you want to get "formal" education its too much fun, 3.2 B.S.in Math from La Verne, 3.8 MS in Systems Management at USC) and relatively high IQ (136-140 depending on the test/day) and all teh wondering in scientific magazines and animal planet, I have to concur on the faith based on the AMZING wonderful expanse of life on our planet, and the uniquely perfect location in time/space we have to get the Earth just perfect, and the simplicity of the DNA molecule to provide such diversity, I have a hard time beleiving it's not divinely inspired.
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      11-14-2007, 10:58 AM   #87
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Oh no I definitely wasn't talking about you. You always post with respect and I appreciate that!
No problem. Respect is the best way. Even if we cant share ALL of our beliefs, at least we can find common ground to live together and understand eachother
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      11-18-2007, 01:39 AM   #88
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Even the most hateful and vile hearts have been changed by the Gospel, as proven by testimonies like Ergun Caner, don't miss this powerful and funny three part series, it will bless your heart. I have shared this with Muslims on other forums—very powerful:


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