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Steve Thomas BMW
View Poll Results: Do Christians drive BMWs? (Another way of asking Are you...?)
Yes, I am Christian. 151 55.31%
No, I am not Christian. 79 28.94%
I don't know if I am a Christian. 5 1.83%
What is a Christian? 15 5.49%
I was a Christian, but not anymore. 23 8.42%
I would like to be a Christian. 0 0%
Voters: 273. You may not vote on this poll

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      05-23-2007, 01:40 PM   #45
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You really need to put another option on the poll for me and hunter399.

Do Jews Drive BMWs?
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      05-24-2007, 10:13 PM   #46
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You really need to put another option on the poll for me and hunter399.

Do Jews Drive BMWs?
lol, my 15 year old highschool friend wants to buy a VW Beetle, but her parents are totally ANTI-GERMAN. Haha, most Jews around me aren't radical like this, but her parents are dead serious about it. I found it pretty funny. They told her to buy a MINI instead... I wonder how they will react once they find out MINI is owned by Germans!

lol, as for myself, back to the topic, I am totally 100% atheist

I actually find it sorta cool, knowing my car company used to build engines for WWII fighter planes
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      05-25-2007, 12:59 AM   #47
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lol, my 15 year old highschool friend wants to buy a VW Beetle, but her parents are totally ANTI-GERMAN. Haha, most Jews around me aren't radical like this, but her parents are dead serious about it. I found it pretty funny. They told her to buy a MINI instead... I wonder how they will react once they find out MINI is owned by Germans!

lol, as for myself, back to the topic, I am totally 100% atheist

I actually find it sorta cool, knowing my car company used to build engines for WWII fighter planes
This cuts all kind of ways. One thing is for sure, you need to pay more attention in history class. And think. You should at least be able to understand your friend's parents views without treating it like a joke.

My brother-in-law’s mother had a number tattooed on her arm. He drives Mercedes because he sees them as good cars and, after all, there is evil lurking in all of us--and at least the Germans have tried to come to grips with it. Is that funny?

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      07-10-2007, 12:31 AM   #48
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This is really a pretty interesting subject, and I've really enjoyed reading everyone's responses. Let me first start out saying that I completely agree with many of you that organized religion is the cause of a majority of the worlds problems.

That being said Christianity is not about religion; it is about a relationship with God. It is trusting in Jesus and what He did on the cross for you (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), not on what you can do for yourself (Ephesians 2:8-9). Christianity is about truly accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

Jesus said that He alone was the way to the Father (John 14:6), that He alone revealed the Father (Matt. 11:27; Luke 10:22). Christians do not go around saying Christianity is the only way because they are arrogant, stupid or judgmental. They do so because, based on the evidence, they believe what Jesus said. Christians believe in Jesus, who claimed to be God (John 8:58; Exodus 3:14), who forgave sins (Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48), and who rose from the dead (Luke 24:24-29; John 2:19). Jesus said that He was the only way. Jesus is unique. He was either telling the truth, He was crazy, or He was a liar. But since everyone agrees that Jesus was a “good man,” how then could He be both good and crazy, or good and a liar? He must have been telling the truth. He is the only way.

Christianity is not based upon evidence...but it is backed by evidence. Obviously anyone could “claim” to be God. The difference with Jesus is that His life completely backed those claims.

"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12

"Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'" John 14:6
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      07-11-2007, 09:54 AM   #49
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Christians do not go around saying Christianity is the only way because they are arrogant, stupid or judgmental. They do so because, based on the evidence, they believe what Jesus said.

Well, from the bible we learn that Jesus prayed with his head on the ground, he refrained from eating pork, he fasted, he kept a beard. He was even circumcised. These are all muslim beliefs. Infact, in the bible it says that “if circumcision is not carried out, then the scriptures are broken”. But these days Christians do not follow these things mentioned in the bible.

Christianity is not based upon evidence...but it is backed by evidence. Obviously anyone could “claim” to be God. The difference with Jesus is that His life completely backed those claims.

The new testament manuscripts amount to 24,000 but only 30 letters are in the bible. How can we say that God’s word and the true message is in the bible today?
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      07-11-2007, 01:37 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by MrFrizzle View Post
lol, my 15 year old highschool friend wants to buy a VW Beetle, but her parents are totally ANTI-GERMAN. Haha, most Jews around me aren't radical like this, but her parents are dead serious about it. I found it pretty funny. They told her to buy a MINI instead... I wonder how they will react once they find out MINI is owned by Germans!

lol, as for myself, back to the topic, I am totally 100% atheist

I actually find it sorta cool, knowing my car company used to build engines for WWII fighter planes
Does anyone refuse to buy japanese cars because of Pearl Harbor? There is something that domestic manufacturers have to think about when they design their commercials ...
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      07-12-2007, 12:46 AM   #51
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Christians do not go around saying Christianity is the only way because they are arrogant, stupid or judgmental. They do so because, based on the evidence, they believe what Jesus said.

Well, from the bible we learn that Jesus prayed with his head on the ground, he refrained from eating pork, he fasted, he kept a beard. He was even circumcised. These are all muslim beliefs. Infact, in the bible it says that “if circumcision is not carried out, then the scriptures are broken”. But these days Christians do not follow these things mentioned in the bible.

Christianity is not based upon evidence...but it is backed by evidence. Obviously anyone could “claim” to be God. The difference with Jesus is that His life completely backed those claims.

The new testament manuscripts amount to 24,000 but only 30 letters are in the bible. How can we say that God’s word and the true message is in the bible today?
“if circumcision is not carried out, then the scriptures are broken”

I don't believe that's in the Bible. Circumcision was given to Abraham to God as a sign of His covenant to him that Abraham would be the father of many nations- the Jews. According to the Old Testament Jewish law, yes, if you were not circumcised, then the covenant will be broken (Genesis 17:14). However, Jesus enters the picture. [Instead of copying out a whole bunch of scripture for you, I'll just reference the major part] http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...2;&version=31;
In Romans 4, Paul tells us that Abraham was declared righteous BEFORE he was circumcised, meaning his salvation was given to him before this sign was ever performed. Circumcision is only a symbol- Just like a ring in a wedding. The ring doesn't make you married, it is the commitment made before witnesses, God and each other that make them married. If you lose a ring, are you not still married? If you couldn't afford a ring, does that mean you can't get married? Circumcision does not save.

If that one's not good enough, Paul makes it fairly clear in Galatians.
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." Galatians 5:6

Yes, Jesus was circumcised because he was raised Jewish. According to the Old Testament law, to keep the covenant (Which they wanted to do) they needed to be circumcised. But because of Jesus dying on the cross and raising to life, we no longer are required to live according to the Old Testament law, as spelled out in Romans 4 [Actually the entire book of Romans. Highly recommended!] and Galatians 5.

Can you show me where it is written that Jesus did not consume pork? Jesus said in Mark 7:18-19 "'Are you so dull?' he asked. 'Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.' (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.')" Jesus goes on to tell us that "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.'" (Mark 7:20-23)

Again, in Acts 10, Peter has a vision in which there are many animals in front of him and the Lord tells Peter to "Get up, Kill, and Eat." Peter refuses, but God replies [15] "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."

As far as the validity of the Bible- Yes, this discussion was very prevalent while the DaVinci Code was popular. I do agree with you, there were many many letters written during this time about Jesus. However, the one's added to the New Testament were written not by people who heard about Jesus, or saw Jesus from a distance, but people who were actually there, people who made eyewitness accounts of the actions, words, and the resurrection of Jesus.

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." 2 Peter 1:20-21

"For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
2 Peter 1:16-17

I do agree with you though, Christians nowadays do not follow the practices you described. Oddly enough.. I shaved this morning and ate pork for dinner. What you described was the Old Testament law, which was no longer necessary after Jesus' resurrection. I'm not saying the law is worthless by any means. We follow the law naturally, but if you'll read the book of Romans, Paul explains it very clearly [far better than I] that we do not have to follow the law to attain our salvation. It is by faith in Jesus Christ, and in Him only that we are saved.

Here's a link to the entire book of Romans. At least read it to try to prove me wrong...
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...r=1&version=31
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      07-12-2007, 11:17 AM   #52
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If you couldn't afford a ring, does that mean you can't get married? Circumcision does not save.

The reason we Muslims believe in circumcision is because it has many hygienic benefits. We take hygiene very seriously and it is one of the most important points in Islam.

Yes, Jesus was circumcised because he was raised Jewish.

This is another thing I don’t understand. Why would God be raised as Jewish?

But because of Jesus dying on the cross and raising to life, we no longer are required to live according to the Old Testament law

But Christians tell me that Jesus’ death and resurrection was to obtain the keys to heaven. I also wonder why God wouldn’t already have the keys but anyway, why would Jesus’ death mean that people are allowed more freedom to live their live as they please? Infact this caused many problems. After Jesus’ death people done many bad things and the apostles told them that they couldn’t do that. But why not? If Jesus died for our sins, it means he paid for them and we are forgiven and free to do as we please…

Can you show me where it is written that Jesus did not consume pork?

I’ll try find it. It was in a video and I don’t know where it is.

Jesus said in Mark 7:18-19 "'Are you so dull?' he asked. 'Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach

Of course no food can make your heart impure. But funnily enough, pork contains the "trichina" worm which settles around the muscles of the heart when it enters the body. Anyway, Yes pork goes into your stomach, but the many harmful effects it can have on your body is enough to show you that pork is not meant to be eaten. You know, even if it wasn’t harmful you could think of it like when God told Adam (AS) not to eat from the tree in heaven. It’s a test of faith. But it’s not the point since pork IS harmful for you.

I do agree with you, there were many many letters written during this time about Jesus. However, the one's added to the New Testament were written not by people who heard about Jesus, or saw Jesus from a distance, but people who were actually there, people who made eyewitness accounts of the actions, words, and the resurrection of Jesus.

Well many contradictions in the bible have been discovered. Here’s a link which shows 101 contradictions:

http://www.answering-christianity.co...radictions.htm
http://www.answering-christianity.co...rs_gospels.htm
http://www.answering-christianity.co...fferent_canons

It also points out the fact that many variations of the bible exist. Not to mention all the different editions too. There’s just so much to read on that website, I’m sure it would take you a few hours to read it all. There are a few other links there too showing many errors and contradictions in the bible.
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      07-12-2007, 10:37 PM   #53
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Thanks for reading all that in my last post. I thought it was way too long- I'll try to keep this one shorter.

The reason we Muslims believe in circumcision is because it has many hygienic benefits
I agree with you that circumcision is much healthier than the alternative, but all I was saying is that it cannot be used in the argument of salvation because it is no longer Biblically 'required.'

Why would God be raised as Jewish?
Good question. I've honestly never looked into this, so thanks for the learning opportunity! The Jews had many specific criteria to be fulfilled by their Messiah. These criteria, once fulfilled, would let the Jews know who their Messiah would be. One specific criterion is that he must be Jewish. (Deuteronomy 17:15) That pretty much explains it, but I'll keep going! Another is that He must also be a member of the tribe of Judah (aka He must be Jewish [again]) (Genesis 49:10). So I guess that basically explains why Jesus was Jewish; to fulfill prophecy- but still continuing... Judaism is defined as "a religion developed among the ancient Hebrews and characterized by belief in one transcendent God who has revealed himself to Abraham, Moses, and the Hebrew prophets and by a religious life in accordance with Scriptures and rabbinic traditions." Jesus most certainly believed in God... His Father! Naturally, Jesus would not have been a Christian, because Christians believe in the resurrection of Jesus, which happened after Jesus began his ministry (obviously). I hope this answers your question. I'll keep researching to find more reasons. I guess I've never questioned it because it didn't really pertain to my salvation! (But interesting nonetheless!)

But Christians tell me that Jesus’ death and resurrection was to obtain the keys to heaven. I also wonder why God wouldn’t already have the keys but anyway

Exactly right. Jesus' death and resurrection provided a 'path' to salvation. I'm not really sure what you mean by why God didn't already have the keys... In the Old Testament, the High Priest was to make animal sacrifices to cover for the Israelites sins. But when Jesus came, the animal sacrifices stopped, and Jesus became the Sacrificial Lamb once and for all (Hebrews 9:11-15).

If Jesus died for our sins, it means he paid for them and we are forgiven and free to do as we please…
Good point, I'm glad you mentioned that. The Bible mentions this quite a bit because many new Christians in the Bible assumed the same! Lets take a closer look...

The Bible teaches that we are naturally all sinners. (Romans 3:23). The Bible describes us as slaves to sin. However, when we accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of our life, we die to that sin, and become slaves to Christ.

"Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires." Galatians 5:24

"You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness" Romans 6:18

Now that we've gotten past what you have alrady said, a new Christian should not just sin for the fun of it because he or she is covered by God's grace.

"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!" Romans 6:15

Of course no follower of Jesus is as perfect as He is, hence the need for a Savior. But we are called to mimic His holiness.

"As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: Be holy, because I am holy." 1 Peter 1:14-16

"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say 'No' to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age" Titus 2:11-12

You see, the reason why followers of Christ should not live wild crazy sinful lives (not to be confused with outgoing and fun.. which I definitely am!) is because we are supposed to be different from the world. As I said earlier, Christians are not perfect- we mess up, obviously. But as you have seen in your own observations, you expect Christians to mimic Jesus. As we should. Doing good works/deeds does not save us, but it is part of our faith. As James says,
"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do." (James 2:18)

Followers of Christ are called to do good deeds to display our faith. If I was telling you all of this face to face, but then I went out and got hammered and got high- would you believe a word I was saying?

As a Servant of Christ, I want to do good deeds, because I want to glorify God with what I do. Of course I sin, but because Christ died for my sins, and I believe and trust in Him that He did, I know my sins have been paid for.

Of course no food can make your heart impure
Exactly!! What really matters in the Bible, the whole purpose, is to show us that there is a way to salvation, and that way is by trusting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. Your heart (soul) is what is at stake. What I am trying to say, is that the foods you eat don't have an eternal impact on salvation or anything of the sort. Thus, it should be a null argument to try to say someone is going to hell (or not going to heaven) for eating pork. I do agree with you that certain foods are clearly unhealthy- and believe it or not, many many many foods can contain certain bacteria/viruses/ and worms that can do a considerable amount to harm your body.. not just pork. I'm a microbiology major, I can go into some serious detail on this one... on a lighter note, a common thing such as Trans fats can really harm our body, but yet we continually eat fast food and frozen foods. But does that mean that they were not ever intended to be eaten? Of course not. Yes, we should take care of our bodies, but that argument is irrelevant when it comes to what really matters, Jesus Christ.

Thanks for the links to the website. I actually did read it all. I will agree with you, that on the surface, that website promotes a very persuading argument. However, when taking a much closer look at their 'contradictions' a vast vast majority of them are taken completely out of context of what the passage in the Bible is actually talking about. Many of their 'major' contradictions are completely irrelevant anyway. There are many that scuffle over one person's name in a lineage of 40. How do we know if that person had two names, just like we do now?

Also, an entire page was dedicated to a passage in Mark that may or may not have been included in the original letter. Ok, so lets pretend that it wasn't originally there. That passage refers to some things that Jesus did after He was resurrected. An exact same account of what that passage described is also found in Matthew 28, Luke 24, and John 20. Even if Mark's gospel didn't originally have those verses, the other 3 gospels account for everything in Mark's passages- meaning, that what they are all talking about, actually happened. So where's the argument?

The Bible has withstood criticism for thousands of years. I could give you many quotes from many sources on why the Bible is the True Word of God, but I'll just reference them for you. Since I read all of your links, I hope you will read mine. Thanks! [Sorry I didn't do a very good job at keeping this one short either!]
http://www.be-ready.org/validity.html
http://www.allabouttruth.org/is-the-bible-true-c.htm
http://www.allabouttruth.org/is-the-bible-true-c-2.htm
http://www.gotquestions.org/which-book.html
http://www.gotquestions.org/questions_Bible.html
http://www.thetruthaboutdavinci.com/...ible-true.html
****http://www.the-good-way.com/eng/intro/i01.htm (If you click on any of them, please read this one!)****
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      07-12-2007, 11:30 PM   #54
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Thanks for having the actual references for HKS, I could relate teh details as I remebered them, but couldn't come up with actual verses and such. Memorizing the verses was never very important to me, as long as I knew the meaning in my heart.
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      07-13-2007, 05:59 AM   #55
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I agree with you that circumcision is much healthier than the alternative, but all I was saying is that it cannot be used in the argument of salvation because it is no longer Biblically 'required.'

That’s what I don’t understand. It should still be required. It is impure for people to not be circumcised. Men haven’t changed physically in any way, so it should still be required. We Muslims believe in keeping the whole body pure so that we can pray and recite the Holy Quran. Very good hygiene is always a good thing.

I remember a story in which a Muslim was performing “wudhu” in an airplane toilet. One of the staff told him that he could not put his feet in the sink. He then asked her how many times a day she washed her face? She replied “once or twice”. He said: “I wash my feet 5 times daily, therefore my feet are cleaner than your face”.

One specific criterion is that he must be Jewish.

This is why Jews reject the Holy Prophet Muhammed (SAW). Prophet Musa (AS) [Moses], told the Jews of a prophet coming to Arabia. The Jews then thought that if they move to Arabia that Allah would make the prophet born into their progeny. However, Allah of course made the Holy Prophet (SAW) an Arab. This angered the Jews and they immediately rejected the Holy Prophet (SAW) out of spite!

But when Jesus came, the animal sacrifices stopped, and Jesus became the Sacrificial Lamb once and for all (Hebrews 9:11-15).

The animal sacrifices consisted of sending a goat into the wild after the priest puts the sins of the people on it. Hence, it “takes away” the sins of the people. This is where the term “Scapegoat” came from. So why did Jesus need to die if this goat didn’t have to die? Moreover, the goat took away the sins of the people at that time. It was a temporary thing. If the people sinned again, they would need to be forgiven again. So by saying that Jesus is the FINAL sacrifice that means that he PERMANENTLY takes away the sins of the people and no other sacrifice is needed. But we can see that Men keep sinning and Christians say that they should not sin…

The Bible teaches that we are naturally all sinners. (Romans 3:23).

I share this belief with you. Allah says in the Quran that “Man was created weak”. This enables Allah to exercise forgiveness. Also, the Holy Prophet (SAW) said that “Men are sinners but the best of sinners are those who repent”.

However, when we accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of our life, we die to that sin, and become slaves to Christ.

Well, what about the people before Jesus? What about the people between Prophet Adam (AS) and Prophet Jesus (AS)?

As a Servant of Christ, I want to do good deeds, because I want to glorify God with what I do. Of course I sin, but because Christ died for my sins, and I believe and trust in Him that He did, I know my sins have been paid for.

But would it matter? If I adopt this belief then it will not matter who does good deeds and who doesn’t, because at the end of the say everyone’s sins have been paid for.

Another point I would like to make is that Jesus cannot be sacrificed for Prophet Adam (AS)’s sins. The original sin started with him, so why would God’s son be sacrificed? Also, Prophet Musa (AS) [Moses] said to God that if the Jews were not forgiven, then he wanted his name removed from the book. God replied that Prophet Musa (AS) [Moses]’s name did NOT have to be removed for God to forgive the Jews.

Your heart (soul) is what is at stake. What I am trying to say, is that the foods you eat don't have an eternal impact on salvation or anything of the sort.

But we cannot forget our purpose on this earth is to remain pure in every way. Men are created in a certain way; if something is not good for them then they should refrain from it. Also, your actions reflect the person you become, and we Muslims believe that we will be judged for our actions on this Earth.

I can go into some serious detail on this one

Islam goes into great depth about what we can eat and not eat. Islam also tells us how to slaughter animals. One example of great depth in Islam, is the fact that we can eat fish but not if the fish died and was found dead and floating in the sea. There is much more information on this in great depth, but I’m sure you get the idea…

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      07-13-2007, 10:29 AM   #56
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circumcision offers some hygenic benfits to those who aren't clean to begin with, but there is little evidence that a male who takes a few moments to clean his foreskin can't be just as hygenic as the one who is circumcised.

When the flight attendant told him he couldn't wash his feet, was it for safety or hygenic reasons? I do yoga once in a while and I'd still have a difficult time washing my feet in an airline bathroom sink. Plus, if you think about it, how did the flight attendant even know he was going to attempt wuhdu, the door to the bathroom is always shut on a plane. The only 2 ways I could see an attendant confronting a passenger over this issue would be 1)he had the door open (blocking the aisle) then was sticking his foot in thru the door sidways to reach the sink (blocking the aisle) or 2) he had some sort of container and was actually pouring water over his feet into the toilet with the door open (blocking teh aisle) and risking infection from his feet touching the bowl of the toilet and getting that nasty greenish liquid they use in airplanes.
To me, it doesn't really sound like he was being criticised for his religious beleif, or even because he might somehow contaminate teh rest of the passengers via contact with the sink, it was a safety/flight regulations issue. Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
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      07-13-2007, 11:34 PM   #57
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Long day today fellas. Its too late post an adequate reply, but I'll try to get one up sometime tomorrow night. thanks for all the questions though. oh hks, that's one sick 430 you have in your sig, any more pictures of it? We are, afterall, all car guys!
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      07-14-2007, 12:19 PM   #58
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I go to church a few times per year. Kids go to a private christian school although that choice was more to do with them getting a good education than getting a daily dose of religion.

American public schools clearly aren't doing their job as is evident from the spelling and grammar seen on E90Post
Woah, but a religious school is? I am sorry I do not know the school they go to. But Religion is full of propaganda, so to say they will be taught better. In who's eyes, yours? Not in a real scholars.
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      07-14-2007, 03:42 PM   #59
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Alpine:

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Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
****http://www.the-good-way.com/eng/intro/i01.htm (If you click on any of them, please read this one!)****
Here is what we muslims say about this:

Historically speaking, and this is very important for any student of Bible to note, the book that is called today the Bible did not exist at the time of the Prophet Isa (Jesus). If you look in the Bible you will find “most” writings are neither from God nor Jesus, but are what others wrote by their own initiative, some probably from heresy; therefore, the Bible is not the Injeel of Isa (Injeel of Isa is what was revealed to Isa and that was what he preached). What Christians have in the Bible are mainly other people’s recordings. Christian scholars have also a history of changing with the times, and changing things in the Bible itself to suit the people; this is a well known fact and one which every lay Christian should know. It’s also noteworthy to mention that while Bible contains some good moral teachings it also contains stuff that can at best be classified as “ungodly” material. Christians who read the Bible will testify to this and it’s not Muslims who wrote these "unholy" stuff, but people who profess the Christian faith.

Continued at: http://www.authorsden.com/visit/view...e.asp?id=15055
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      07-14-2007, 05:05 PM   #60
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Also, lets look at what Christian Scholars say about the bible:

History of the Bible - Fred Gladstone Bratton

"There is a necessary and inevitable uncertainty about biblical studies owing to the very nature of the task. If the Bible had been written in English or if we had the original autographs of the Scripture. But this is unfortunately not the case"

"Between the time of the original composition and the earliest manuscripts, as well as during the successive manuscript stages, numerous changes were made, both deliberate and accidental."

"The idea that the Bible is a book is comparatively modern. It is not one book but a library of 66 books, written by almost as many authors during a period of one thousand years and on three continents."

"The traditional interpretation assumed that since every sentence of the Bible had been dictated by God, there could be no possibility of error. But contradictions, scientific errors, absurd statements, exgerrations and immature views occur throughout the Bible and were detected by the early church fathers, such as Origen, in the 3rd Century. In I Samuel 17:49 for instance we are told that David slew Goliath. In II Samuel 21:19 another account of the same battle tells us that it was Elhenan who slew Goliath."

"The 20th century Christian takes the New Testament for granted. It is hard for him to realize that there was a period when Christians had no New Testament and a still longer period when they had one but they did not know what books were, or should be, in it. The books of the New Testament were not written as Scripture and for a long time were not read as Scripture. The 'occasional' or local and, at times, self-centred character of Paul's letters is proof that neither Paul nor his readers thought there was anything sacred about them"

On Paul's letters:

"He was writing personal letters to certain people, and, if he had been able to visit them in person he would not have written."

"These letters also reveal two Pauls. Paul the practical preacher of the gospel and Paul the theologian. The religion of the first is more important for us than the theology of the second, but, unfortunately, the church often been unable to see the forest of the one for the trees of the other"

On Gospel of Mark:

"It is also the oldest, but in spite of this it is not a book written by an apostle. At best is was written by an apostle's disciple."

"He contradicts Matthew and Luke - with regard to the sing of Jonah"

" - the final section of Mark's Gospel (16, 19-20) is considered by modern authors to be tacked onto the basic work - - - - - -. This final section is not contained in the two oldest completet manuscripts of the Gospels."

"The descriptions of Jesus' childhood are unique to Luke's Gospel. Matthew describes Jesus' childhood differently from Luke, and Mark does not mention it at all"

"Matthew and Luke both provide different geneologies of Jesus: the contradictions are so large and the improbabilities so great, from a scientific point of view, that a special chapter of this book has been devoted to the subject"

"Jesus' mission is described differently on many points by Luke, Matthew and Mark."

"Luke expresses ideas on the subject of Jesus' Ascension which contradict what he says in the Acts of the Apostles - - in his Gospel he situates the Ascension on Easter Day and in the Acts forty days later"

Father Roguet on John's Gospel:

"It's a different world".

O Culmann on John's Gospel:

"a unique book; different in the arrangement and choice of subject, description and speech; different in its style, geography, chronology. There are even differences on the theological outlook"





I typed all of that out myself, I got it from a book called "Islam and Christianity" by Dr. Tahir ul-Qadri. I could show you more if you want, but I'll leave that with you for now. All of this comes with respect of course
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      07-14-2007, 06:16 PM   #61
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That’s what I don’t understand. It should still be required. It is impure for people to not be circumcised. Men haven’t changed physically in any way, so it should still be required.

I've already shown you references in the Bible where it is written that circumcision is only a symbol, not anything of real meaning. The covenant lies within our hearts, not on our foreskin. It's clearly written in Genesis 17 and Paul writes it again in Romans 4. Abraham was declared righteous before the Lord gave him the covenant. Therefore, righteousness was determined before circumcision was even imagined. Yes, it was required in the Old Testament. It was a way to SHOW to covenant. To be branded by God. So why is it not required in the New Testament? Because they like dirty bodies? No. Circumcision, as I stated, was a symbol. What's the new symbol? Jesus Christ. Jesus is the new covenant.

Is it a good idea to be circumcised? Yes. Is it ok if you're not? Yes!! Will you have a chance at heaven if you're not circumcised? Of course!... but why?
What is the only requirement to be saved? Believe in Jesus Christ. Not believe and be circumcised.

No matter how hard you try, your body is always going to be dirty. You can take 20 showers a day, and still be covered in bacteria. Thats what our bodies are for- to protect the inside from what's outside.

Look, we can go back and forth on this all day long- The point I want to make to you is, the Old Testament law is no longer in affect because Jesus Christ came, died for us, was resurrected, and confirmed everything He did on earth to show us He is the one true Son of God. Jesus showed us that He saves- not the law. He touched the unclean and made them clean. He (Jew) interacted with gentile. Who knows, maybe He did cut His beard. But He taught that only He saves, not the law. Circumcision is no longer required by God, sacrifices are no longer required by God, hair cutting or not cutting is no longer required by God. What is required is that you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and trust in Him as your Lord and Savior over your life.

He said: “I wash my feet 5 times daily, therefore my feet are cleaner than your face”.
Thats humorous, but what does this have to do with salvation? I'm glad that at that point his feet are clean, but as soon as he steps down, they're filthy. The bacteria on the bathroom floor of an airplane are far worse than anything thats in the air touching her face. How does washing your feet in a bathroom forgive you for sins? The people of Jesus' time were absolutely filthy from all the dust, not to mention the fact that they rarely bathed. Yet, the Bible says that they saw and heard Jesus and believed and they were saved. It didn't mention how dirty they were. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the man with the clean body is going to heaven, but the guy with dirt on his feet and hands is damned. What's within your heart is what matters. The Lord looks at the heart- not the clothes you wear, not the car you drive, not the house you live in, not the grades you make, not the job you have.

So why did Jesus need to die if this goat didn’t have to die? Moreover, the goat took away the sins of the people at that time.

The goat did have to die. Old Testament sacrifice is all over the Bible.

After the flood Noah sacrifices animals to God. Burnt offerings. Fire. Dead. (Genesis 8:20)

After the Lord stopped Abraham from sacrificing his son Isaac, Abraham sacrificed a ram instead in place of Isaac. He sacrificed it as a burnt offering. Fire. Dead. (Genesis 22:13)

In Leviticus, God told Moses how to perform a sacrifice that is pleasurable to Him. Leviticus 4:4 explains how the priest is to perform a sacrifice if he sins, bringing guilt on the people. He is to slaughter a young bull before the Lord, and then spread the blood and sprinkle it before the Lord. Check it out, its pretty graphic. I don't think the bull got to run off into the woods and carry the sin with it. It died.


>>Now, why did it have to die?<<
One reason, and one reason only.

"For the wages of sin is death" Romans 6:23

It doesn't say, the wages of sin is losing a goat in the woods, or cutting off your foreskin or washing your feet. It says death. What is due because of your sin? Death. How can you repay your debt to sin? Death. One way.

>>>Enter Jesus<<< But why would God send his own son?

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." John 3:16-18

Jesus was our sacrificial lamb. For everyone? No. Only for those who believe in him.
Therefore, if you believe in Jesus what are your wages for your sin? Nothing- you are no longer condemned because Jesus picked up your tab.
If you do not believe in Jesus, how to you repay your sin? Death.

So by saying that Jesus is the FINAL sacrifice that means that he PERMANENTLY takes away the sins of the people and no other sacrifice is needed. But we can see that Men keep sinning and Christians say that they should not sin…

Read the book of James. Its really really short, and even if you don't believe in God, its still applicable because it talks alot about being a good person. James (son of Mary and Joseph, Jesus' parents... so, somewhat Jesus' brother) points out a very good observation.

"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do." (James 2:18)

Like I said two days ago, I WANT to live a good life (not sin) because I want to
1. Glorify God with what I do
2. Show others that I belong to Jesus Christ by setting myself apart from the crowd (not sin).

Ok, take faith out of it. Lets just go by morals here. Is it morally right for someone to kill, lie, cheat, steal, or commit adultry? Any moral person would say no. Those things are sins (obviously) so its morally 'good' to not sin. Name a sin that is morally acceptable.

But we cannot forget our purpose on this earth is to remain pure in every way. Men are created in a certain way; if something is not good for them then they should refrain from it. Also, your actions reflect the person you become, and we Muslims believe that we will be judged for our actions on this Earth.


You just answered the last question for me.

"You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." James 2:24

"As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do. For it is written, 'Be holy, because I am holy.'[Leviticus 11:45]" 1 Peter 1:14-16
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      07-14-2007, 07:02 PM   #62
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Alpine, great posts. Hopefully some Muslim will read it and see the light.
I think if I was a Muslim and saw everything that Muslims are doing around the world, I would seriously begin to move away from the teachings of Islam. "You shall know them by their fruits."

I do have respect for peace loving Muslims, some are fighting against terrorists with America. However, in my opinion, the teachings of radical Islam are not compatible with America's system of government. They want to take over the world in the name of Islam. Try converting to Christianlty in a Muslim country and see how tolerant they really are.
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24886
http://www.bible-truth.org/ChristianPersecution.html
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      07-14-2007, 07:25 PM   #63
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"Between the time of the original composition and the earliest manuscripts, as well as during the successive manuscript stages, numerous changes were made, both deliberate and accidental."
Lets see proof. What was specifically changed? How does this "scholar" know that things were 'accidentally' changed? Sounds like an opinion to me.

"The idea that the Bible is a book is comparatively modern. It is not one book but a library of 66 books, written by almost as many authors during a period of one thousand years and on three continents."
And? What's your point here? Is this "christian" scholar implying that God isn't great enough to use many people over a period of time to write down His word? God could have used one person to write down everything if He wanted to, but He decided to use people who, for the most part, saw everything first hand. Would you believe me if I wrote out 'The Gospel According to Alpine'? Of course not, I wasn't there.

But contradictions, scientific errors, absurd statements, exgerrations and immature views occur throughout the Bible
Show me a scientific error. Show me absurd statements. Does this "Christian" think that Jesus saying He is the Son of God is absurd? I suppose he believes feeding thousands with a few fish and a couple loaves of bread is an exaggeration.. or maybe even immature? Lets see his evidence. Otherwise, this 'scholar' is writing out opinions. Anyone can write opinions.

The 'occasional' or local and, at times, self-centred character of Paul's letters is proof that neither Paul nor his readers thought there was anything sacred about them"
Yes, you're right. Paul was eccentric. But to claim that his readers thought there was nothing sacred about them is absolutely ludicrous.
Beginning of Romans
"Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God- the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead; Jesus Christ our Lord. Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ. ... Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 1:1-6

Paul tells the Romans that he received apostleship from Christ to call people to the obedience. He tells them that Grace and peace come to them from God and from Jesus. Elsewhere in the book, he continually refers to how God feels, what God thinks, and what God wants. To say that the recipients of this letter didn't think this had any sacred value is untrue.. and again, an opinion. Unless he has evidence where the recipients of his letters said, 'these are not sacred by any means' then I wouldn't put much stock into this 'scholar.'

"He was writing personal letters to certain people, and, if he had been able to visit them in person he would not have written."
True. But God had a plan. I'm sure there were dozens of times where Paul visited instead of wrote. But that was God's plan. God knows what He's doing.

"It is also the oldest, but in spite of this it is not a book written by an apostle. At best is was written by an apostle's disciple."
There is absolutely no way that this 'scholar' can claim this without it being written in Mark's gospel that 'Hey, Mark isn't writing this, his disciple is!' Yet again, opinion.

" - the final section of Mark's Gospel (16, 19-20) is considered by modern authors to be tacked onto the basic work - - - - - -. This final section is not contained in the two oldest completet manuscripts of the Gospels."
Already addressed this. As I said, it's fine if you want to say it wasn't originally there, because it's included in Matthew 28, Luke 24, and John 20 already.

"Luke expresses ideas on the subject of Jesus' Ascension which contradict what he says in the Acts of the Apostles - - in his Gospel he situates the Ascension on Easter Day and in the Acts forty days later"
The 'ascension on easter' is when he rose from the grave after he was crucified on the cross. He defeated death and came back to life. The ascension 40 days later is when He left earth for good, and went to heaven.
I'm sorry, but this guy is not a scholar by any means. To call this a contradiction is just stupid. I learned this in Sunday school in like the 3rd grade.

"a unique book; different in the arrangement and choice of subject, description and speech; different in its style, geography, chronology. There are even differences on the theological outlook"
Exactly why I love the book of John. John was one of the closest disciples to Jesus. One of his many nicknames was 'the one who Jesus loved'. So.. 1. John was very close to Jesus. He probably knew more about him than others did. He was the one PRESENT at the crucifixion. He was there with Jesus' mother, and Jesus told him to take care of his mother. Now, 2, John was the youngest of all the disciples. Some say he was even a teenager when he was following Christ. His writing style SHOULD be different than the others. I can definitely say my writing style is different than someone who is 40+ years older than I am. But does any of this void his writings? Of course not. So what's the point.

The Bible will stand through any criticism anyone can throw at it. It is the truth.
I'm sorry if some of this sounds rude or anything- I really do come to you with the utmost respect, hks. I just really don't like when people who call themselves 'Christian' 'scholars' write things down, which are clearly untrue, and distort the minds of people who may be questioning Christianity. Those are the 'christians' you refer to when you see hypocrisy. They're definitely not following what Jesus taught.. but its not my place to judge. God's got that covered.

I'm not going to post an 'offensive' this time. You can throw whatever you want at the Bible, and I'll be happy to explain and/or defend it. It's not my job to 'convert' you, hks, but it is my job to let you know the truth.
Be well, hks.

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      07-15-2007, 07:45 AM   #64
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How does washing your feet in a bathroom forgive you for sins?

It doesn’t. We muslims clean ourselves so that we can pray in a clean state.

I'm glad that at that point his feet are clean, but as soon as he steps down, they're filthy.

But he doesn’t need to put his feet on the floor, he can put them back into his shoes. His shoes would be quite clean since he washes five times daily, however, I do recognise that you cannot kill every single piece of bacteria. But that’s besides the point. We muslims do our best to keep clean, Allah recognises our efforts because we are doing what he told us to do.

The idea of cleanliness is very important in Islam. There is no way that you could look at the idea and criticise it. I’m sure noone would every say good hygiene is a bad thing. Remember you said:

“If I was telling you all of this face to face, but then I went out and got hammered and got high- would you believe a word I was saying?”

Well, that’s another reason why we keep ourselves clean. We show respect to our bodies and the way they should be kept clean, and we also gain respect from other people. People think better of people who clean themselves.

You also said:

"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do." (James 2:18)

I share this belief too. Good standards of hygiene will reflect and show a lot to other people in comparison to someone who doesn’t care if he is clean or not.

in the Bible does it say that the man with the clean body is going to heaven
The Quran doesn’t say that merely cleaning yourself will gain you the reward of heaven either.

The Lord looks at the heart- not the clothes you wear, not the car you drive, not the house you live in, not the grades you make, not the job you have.

He looks at cleanliness too. Some people are poor and cannot afford to keep themselves clean, Allah will recognise that and not blame them. BUT there are people who simply don’t care. I think it’s selfish, Allah gave us 2 arms, 2 legs and 5 senses. The least we can do is keep ourselves clean and show gratitude for what he has given us.

The goat did have to die. Old Testament sacrifice is all over the Bible.

Look:

(Lev 16:10 NIV) "But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD to be used for making atonement by sending it into the desert as a scapegoat."

>>Now, why did it have to die?<<
One reason, and one reason only.

"For the wages of sin is death" Romans 6:23


Muslims totally disagree with this. God is All-Powerful and has no requirements to forgive people. Islam says it is up to Allah to forgive you or not. Christianity says that God’s son needs to be sacrificed for the gates of heaven to be reopened. Christianity says this despite it was man that committed sin, not God’s son or God himself. There are also contradictions. Such as the example I gave about Moses. Also, Christians say in prayer that we should forgive those who transgress against us. Notice that the prayer does not set any pre-conditions such as sacrifices that need to be made.

It doesn't say, the wages of sin is losing a goat in the woods, or cutting off your foreskin or washing your feet.

Neither does the Quran. The Quran tells us that Allah alone has the power to forgive and he didn’t say these things would gain forgiveness.

Jesus was our sacrificial lamb. For everyone? No. Only for those who believe in him.

This just confuses the matter even more. Jesus’ sin was to gain forgiveness for man. Whether people choose to believe in it or not is up to them. But for Jesus to say “I done this only for people who believe in it” makes no sense, because doing it was to show that he was God’s son and this is the sacrifice he is making, no? So, if he take a Christian perspective, Jesus must infact have done it for everyone so that they could embrace him as the son of God.

Like I said two days ago, I WANT to live a good life (not sin)

Yes, you do. But some people are lazy and will think “hey Jesus paid for my sins, I don’t have to do anything”. Infact, some Christian Scholars used to say that Jesus was a ransom to the devil. I’m sure you see the problems with this too. If Jesus is a ransom, then once his life has been taken as the price to the devil, then men are free for eternity to sin as they please. Moreover, God paying a ransom or price to ANYONE is absurd, never mind the devil. God is All-Powerful and owes nothing or pays nothing to anyone.
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      07-15-2007, 07:47 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FloridaBoy View Post
Alpine, great posts. Hopefully some Muslim will read it and see the light.
I think if I was a Muslim and saw everything that Muslims are doing around the world, I would seriously begin to move away from the teachings of Islam. "You shall know them by their fruits."

I do have respect for peace loving Muslims, some are fighting against terrorists with America. However, in my opinion, the teachings of radical Islam are not compatible with America's system of government. They want to take over the world in the name of Islam. Try converting to Christianlty in a Muslim country and see how tolerant they really are.
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24886
http://www.bible-truth.org/ChristianPersecution.html
So if Christians do not follow Christianity, it detracts something for the actual religion? Of course not. Islam is there, if people want to use it to hide behind it to carry out terrorim - Allah will know this and punish them. But the fact remains that nothing people who call themselves "muslims" do, will detract anything from Islam.
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      07-15-2007, 10:34 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
[b]God paying a ransom or price to ANYONE is absurd, never mind the devil. God is All-Powerful and owes nothing or pays nothing to anyone.
Spoken like someone who has no concept of a loving God who would take a sinner's place on the cross. How could you my friend, you have been eating the styrofoam of man's religion and you have no real relationship with your creator. No matter what others may say, this Allah of yours is not the living God of the Bible. Your only hope of salvation is the blood of God himself. (Acts 20:28)

I hope and pray you will turn from Islam, accept God's payment for your sins and you will find out he has a great plan for your life. Somewhere along that journey you will be amazed to find out just how much God really loves people... including you. Peace.
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