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      02-09-2008, 07:33 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
Firstly when we say "muslim fundamentalists" we are already making a mistake. The fundamentals of Islam are being peaceful and following the laws of God, therefore you cant be a terrorist and a proper muslim...

The reason why I felt offended is because you said:

"Another benifit of being deeply religious ... Blind faith is good for you..."

you made no effort to say that people who distort religions are clearly in error and should not do so. You instead took a dig at being "deeply religious" and having "blind faith" which the Quran doesnt even teach...
Religion is distortion of reality and physical world. Islamic fundamentalism is a term used to describe religious ideologies seen as advocating literalistic interpretations of the texts of Islam.
OK, lets forget about semantics. Are you trying to tell me that muslim suicide bombers are NOT real muslims? What kind are they?
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      02-10-2008, 02:39 AM   #244
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Religion is distortion of reality and physical world. Islamic fundamentalism is a term used to describe religious ideologies seen as advocating literalistic interpretations of the texts of Islam.
OK, lets forget about semantics. Are you trying to tell me that muslim suicide bombers are NOT real muslims? What kind are they?
Strictly speaking, as Muslims, we arent allowed to judge people and say if they are Muslim or not and if they will enter paradise. We leave this judgement to Allah. I should have been more careful with my words.

People who carry out these terrorist attacks as you said, are justifying there attacks through interpretations of Islam. However, the verses these people supply are SO few and they interpret them without looking at the Quran’s context and the historical context.
Islam is not a message of evil. The Holy Prophet (SAW) says:

"The best of you are those who are best to their wives".

“A true believer is one with whom others feel secure. One who returns love for hatred.”

“Which act in Islam is the best?” He replied, “To feed (the poor and needy) and greet those who you know and those who you do not.”

“Do not hate one another, and do not be jealous of one another; and do not desert (cut your relation with) each other, and O Allah’s worshippers! Be brothers. Lo! It is not permissible for any Muslim to desert (not talk to) his brother (Muslim) for more than three days.”

“The strong is not the one who overcomes the people by his strength, but the strong is the one who controls himself while in anger.”

He even said (not exact words, I’m speaking from memory, but they are very near exact words):

“If there are 3, then 2 should not whisper privately as to make the third feel bad”.

I.e. If there are 3 people then 2 people shouldn’t whisper privately and exclude the 3rd person. Look how beautiful this advice is. Such a simple thing yet it shows us how to have respect for other people.

Now look at what Allah says:

"Defend yourself against your enemies, but attack them not first; Allah hateth the aggressors."
Qur’an (2:190)


The fact is that there are TOO many proofs from Islam that it is a peaceful religion. I mean, the Holy Prophet (SAW) said "Play with your children in the first 7 years of their lives, teach them in the next 7 years of their lives and then become their friend in the next 7 years."

Yesterday I heard a BBC report saying that despite children in Britain being educated at a younger age, children in Sweden for example, and doing much better despite being taught at 7 years old. One father actually said he thought his children learned a lot by playing in their first 7 years. He then went on to say that since despite their education starting at 7 years old, their writing and reading skills were amazing.

Here’s the report: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7232897.stm

Even IF the Holy Prophet (SAW) was wrong (which I don’t believe, and studies confirm otherwise) then you should still appreciate the beauty of the words. He says play with them, then teach them, then become their friend. Can anyone give any better advice on raising children than that?

Now as to why these terrorist carry out their bloody acts, who knows. I say that many of them are brainwashed into thinking they will go to heaven etc. But I also think many of them feel oppressed because of what is happening in the world. I feel for them, I really do, but that’s no excuse for killing innocents. Allah tells us to defend ourselves against OPPRESORS, not to attack innocent people to anger the oppresors.
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      02-10-2008, 11:14 AM   #245
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How do you explain jihad?

Here is one definition:

"The definition of jihad is “to wage war against non-Muslims to establish the religion."
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      02-10-2008, 03:06 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by e90im View Post
How do you explain jihad?

Here is one definition:

"The definition of jihad is “to wage war against non-Muslims to establish the religion."
Not true. Your Arena of common sense has taken another blow, friend...

If you study Arabic you will know that "Jihad" LITERALLY means a struggle. Consider the below verse from the Quran:

"We have enjoined on people kindness to parents; but if they strive (jahadaka) to make you ascribe partners with Me that of which you have no knowledge, then obey them not..."
Quran (29:8)


What Allah basically just said there was "I have made it compulsory to be kind to your parents, but if they strive (arabic=jahadaka) to make you associate partners with me of which you have no knowledge, then do not obey them."

What is interesting here is the word "Jihad" being used to mean STRIVE. Why dont you look up other places where the word is used. It does NOT mean what you said it did. See:

(9:23-24) - Recognizing the Creator and loving Him most.

(25:52) - Resisting pressure of parents, peers and society.

(22:78) (29:6) (4:97) (2:218) (3:142) (2:155) - Staying on the straight path steadfastly.

(29:69) - Striving for righteous deeds. Also see hadith on this:

Aisha, wife of the Prophet(S) asked, "O Messenger of Allah, we see jihad as the best of deeds, so shouldn't we join it?" He replied, "But, the best of jihad is a perfect hajj (pilgrimage to Makkah)."
Sahih Al-Bukhari #2784


Yet another man asked the Messenger of Allah (SAW):

"Should I join the jihad?" He asked, "Do you have parents?" The man said, "Yes!" The Prophet(S) said, "then strive by (serving) them!"
Sahih Al-Bukhari #5972


Yet another man asked the Messenger of Allah: :

"What kind of jihad is better?" He replied, "A word of truth in front of an oppressive ruler!"
Sunan Al-Nasa'i #4209


The Messenger of Allah, Muhammad(S) said:

"... the mujahid (one who carries out jihad) is he who strives against himself for the sake of obeying Allah, and the muhajir (one who emigrates) is he who abandons evil deeds and sin."
Sahih Ibn Hibban #4862


(26:1-190) (36:13-32) (41:33) (49:15) - Having courage and steadfastness to convey the message of Islam.

(22:39-40) (2:190,193) - Defending Islam and the community.

I could keep writing all the verses up but that's more than enough for you to check up on. I think you should now be able to see what Jihad ACTUALLY means. I will also leave this last verse for you to consider:

"Let there be no compulsion (or coercion) in the religion (Islam). The right direction is distinctly clear from error."
Quran (2:256)
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      02-10-2008, 06:55 PM   #247
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^blah blah blah, Allah, blah blah blah...Quran..blah blah blah...

MUSLIM SUPPORT IT IN THEORY BUT IGNORE IT IN PRACTICE!!!!!
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      02-10-2008, 07:31 PM   #248
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Some people realy dont know when to stop. Ore when a reaction is kind of .... going to far.
Danish embassy, syria - a small drawing of Muhammed in a newpaper in Denmark.
I wouldent say no more. We are simply to far from each other in time to communicate.
So this treat will not go anywhere. Just another religius WAR.
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      02-10-2008, 07:43 PM   #249
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Some people realy dont know when to stop. Ore when a reaction is kind of .... going to far.
Danish embassy, syria - a small drawing of Muhammed in a newpaper in Denmark.
I wouldent say no more. We are simply to far from each other in time to communicate.
So this treat will not go anywhere. Just another religius WAR.
Well my friend, please DO NOT equate masacres and suicide bombings with Mohammed cartoons.
Infidels must die because of that. It is outrageous.
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      02-10-2008, 08:01 PM   #250
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I know. That was the point. I dont take much. And this is a forum for cars. Not for religius war.
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      02-10-2008, 08:09 PM   #251
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It's an insult that you do not understand. How many times are people hit/killed for insulting somebody's mom? (Un)fortunately, the human race is very violent and prone to acts of passionate retribution. THAT has nothing to do with religion at all.
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      02-10-2008, 08:17 PM   #252
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It's an insult that you do not understand. How many times are people hit/killed for insulting somebody's mom? (Un)fortunately, the human race is very violent and prone to acts of passionate retribution. THAT has nothing to do with religion at all.
Except when religious elders request that you blow yourself up....
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      02-10-2008, 08:29 PM   #253
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Or your dad says "Women need to know you're the boss, and a good slap to the face will keep her in line"
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      02-10-2008, 11:04 PM   #254
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Do you have a confession to make uncle?
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      02-10-2008, 11:07 PM   #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
It's an insult that you do not understand. How many times are people hit/killed for insulting somebody's mom? (Un)fortunately, the human race is very violent and prone to acts of passionate retribution. THAT has nothing to do with religion at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Or your dad says "Women need to know you're the boss, and a good slap to the face will keep her in line"
OT thought, but...

Just like violence is taught from generation to generation, kindness can be taught as well.

Violence is a trait that will disappear as humans evolve.
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      02-11-2008, 04:55 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by e90im View Post
^blah blah blah, Allah, blah blah blah...Quran..blah blah blah...

MUSLIM SUPPORT IT IN THEORY BUT IGNORE IT IN PRACTICE!!!!!
You are the MOST ignorant, disrespectful person ever on this board. You are the fool trying to interpret Arabic when YOU want to and when people show you proof of what the word "Jihad" actually means you ignore it. I'd laugh if we werent discussing something so serious.

The fact is that if you read and consider everything above you will see how wrong you really are. Now, if certain Muslims want to blow themselves up and not follow Islam THAT IS THERE CHOICE. Dont go around painting us all with the same brush. I'm sure you wouldnt appreciate it if I did that to you because there are athiests in the world who are violent, disgusting etc.
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      02-11-2008, 05:03 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Chunga View Post
Some people realy dont know when to stop. Ore when a reaction is kind of .... going to far.
Danish embassy, syria - a small drawing of Muhammed in a newpaper in Denmark.
I wouldent say no more. We are simply to far from each other in time to communicate.
So this treat will not go anywhere. Just another religius WAR.
I think it's only too easy to jump to conclusions and point the finger at Muslims. Now, while I might not agree with the behaviour of Muslims in the world today I think people should stop and think...

We Muslims dont believe in drawing ANYTHING that is a living creature since Allah created it. The only thing we do is take photographs because it captures what is already created by Allah, but if we were to draw something our imagination would obviously come into the work.

While the rest of the world make drawings of their religous figures we dont draw any and for someone to come along and not only draw the Holy Prophet (SAW) but INSULT him, that is a huge thing. How can anyone understand or relate to this? I think the only way you would understand is if I drew the same picture of someone's mother, they would NOT be happy regardless if they are Muslim, Jew, Christian or Athiest!!!!

Also, look how people try to say "Islam was spread by the sword", "Islam is violent" etc. Bla bla bla. They always MISQUOTE Islam and when proof is shown to them they ignore it. How stupid....

Explain this:

“A true believer is one with whom others feel secure. [U]One who returns love for hatred[/u].”
- The Holy Prophet (SAW)

"Defend yourself against your enemies, but attack them not first; Allah hateth the aggressors."
- Qur’an (2:190)

"If any Muslim ruler or exploiter acted contrary to the teachings of Islam, it was his personal fault which cannot be laid at the door of Islamand for which he will be answerable to Allah according to Islamic injunctions and restrictions. Against the militants, the Prophet (SAW) declared: "He who is not affectionate to Allah's creatures and to his own children would not receive the affection of God."
- Abu Huraira (RA)
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      02-11-2008, 07:07 AM   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
You are the MOST ignorant, disrespectful person ever on this board. You are the fool trying to interpret Arabic when YOU want to and when people show you proof of what the word "Jihad" actually means you ignore it. I'd laugh if we werent discussing something so serious.

The fact is that if you read and consider everything above you will see how wrong you really are. Now, if certain Muslims want to blow themselves up and not follow Islam THAT IS THERE CHOICE. Dont go around painting us all with the same brush. I'm sure you wouldnt appreciate it if I did that to you because there are athiests in the world who are violent, disgusting etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

I am not sure what you're trying to prove here and "show" us, but the definition is simple...
Or, are you trlling us that the majority of people are "ignorant and disrespectful"?
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      02-11-2008, 12:15 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
You are the MOST ignorant, disrespectful person ever on this board. You are the fool trying to interpret Arabic when YOU want to and when people show you proof of what the word "Jihad" actually means you ignore it. I'd laugh if we werent discussing something so serious.

The fact is that if you read and consider everything above you will see how wrong you really are. Now, if certain Muslims want to blow themselves up and not follow Islam THAT IS THERE CHOICE. Dont go around painting us all with the same brush. I'm sure you wouldnt appreciate it if I did that to you because there are athiests in the world who are violent, disgusting etc.
OK, so word jihad means struggle. When Osama calls for jihad, what kind of struggle does he mean? Non-violent one?

I agree that atheists can be violent and cruel. That is a human trait in general. I'm trying to point out that morals do not come from being religious.

I think you need to accept the fact of what is going on in your religion. I am NOT saying that majority of Muslim are violent. However, the peaceful ones must "talk" to your fundamentalists and stop this suicide crap! OK, mister sensitive?
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      02-11-2008, 05:36 PM   #260
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Do you have a confession to make uncle?
I confess that I beleive in what you term Skydaddy. I base it in part on my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, not just what I read in a book. I can rarely quote you scripture, but I can tell you how much better I feel when I think with God, and how much worse I feel when I don't participate with God in my thoughts.

It won't work as proof for your needs, but there is a presence in my life.
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      02-11-2008, 05:53 PM   #261
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OK, so word jihad means struggle. When Osama calls for jihad, what kind of struggle does he mean? Non-violent one?
Of course he means VIOLENT. That's my point though, he is misinterpreting Islam either unintentionally or intentionally. That's for Allah to decide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im
I agree that atheists can be violent and cruel. That is a human trait in general. I'm trying to point out that morals do not come from being religious.
No they don't. Morals are traditions that help you make decisions, but Islam was given to us from Allah because if we humans are to decide what is "good" and "bad" we'll obviously conflict with eachother. Just look at the minimum age to have sex, it's different all over the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im
I think you need to accept the fact of what is going on in your religion. I am NOT saying that majority of Muslim are violent. However, the peaceful ones must "talk" to your fundamentalists and stop this suicide crap! OK, mister sensitive?
I think you need to accept the fact that it's not going on within the RELIGION. The religion is there but if people dont abide by Allah's laws that their own fault.

I agree that the peaceful need to teach the suicide bombers. However, I blame the Arabs MOSTLY for this. You see the Quran was revealed in the beautiful language of Arabic. It was therefore Arabs responsibility to spread the message. However, in these days where even non-arabs can have access to translations of the Quran I think it is all of our duty.

I'm glad me and you can come to agreement on this though. Pardon me for being "sensitive" but it's Islam that is getting a bad name. People dont seem to differentiate between Islam and these suicide bombers.
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      02-11-2008, 06:32 PM   #262
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Islam is getting a bad name because most of terrorism somehow has Islamic background. Now, whether that is "true" Islam or exploitation of the same, doesn't matter in the PR world.

So if Muslims want to change this, it must be changed within. One suicide bomber carries more PR value than 100 press conferences. Please contain the nut-jobs, and everyone wins.

Could you please answer why 99% of terrorist acts are executed by self proclaimed Islamic jihadists? I'm not being sarcastic, honest question.
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      02-12-2008, 04:33 AM   #263
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Islam is getting a bad name because most of terrorism somehow has Islamic background. Now, whether that is "true" Islam or exploitation of the same, doesn't matter in the PR world.
You are absolutely right bro. I hear the term "Islamic terrorist" or "Islamic Jihadist" all the time. Even governments use it a lot, and slowly it has had an effect on people to the extent they now hate Islam. People with power know exactly what they are doing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im
So if Muslims want to change this, it must be changed within. One suicide bomber carries more PR value than 100 press conferences. Please contain the nut-jobs, and everyone wins.
I agree. I totally agree that we Muslims need to change it from within. However, I would like to add 2 points:

a) the media and governments should make CLEAR distinctions between Muslims and "Muslims" that carry out attacks. This will never happen though.

b) we must analyse why terrorists are doing these attacks. I agree that a lot of them are doing it because they think to kill the "enemy" will gain them heaven. However, killing innocents is never acceptable in Islam.

But we must also acknowledge that a lot of people are carrying out attacks because they feel oppressed by America and other powers. Just look at the war in Iraq for example. Where are the WMD? Now they want us to believe what they say about Iran...yeah - right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im
Could you please answer why 99% of terrorist acts are executed by self proclaimed Islamic jihadists? I'm not being sarcastic, honest question.
I think we need to distinguish between them first as I just mentioned, but as to why they are self-proclaimed I'm not sure. I think this highlights the fact that they have different purposes. I mean you hear of groups from Palestine, Lebanon who feel oppressed. I'm sure you know why.

There's also groups in Iraq that not only carry out they "Jihadist" acts but do it against different types of Muslim. I blame America and Britain for this too. I dont know if you seen the reports, but some troops in Iraq were caught with explosives and they were dressed up as Arabs! Naturally, they got away with it and there wasnt too much media coverage on it. I wonder why.

But anyway, these type of Muslims are ones that feel oppressed as I said. However, I wont deny that there are MANY out there that have simply come to hate all non-Muslims. I think these are the small groups that watch Al-Queda carrying out their attacks and have come to admire them so they go out and do the same bloody acts. This isnt Islam and I wish they would see it. They have been brainwashed into thinking they'll go to heaven etc.
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      02-12-2008, 12:08 PM   #264
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Q. Why do Muslims allow terrorists to act in the name of Islam?

A. not clear
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