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      06-29-2011, 10:57 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omerta View Post
you may have gains sitting still on a dyno, but wont the car be missing all of the forced air from the OEM setup while the car is in motion? Also, I do not remember the technical reasoning but I read that this is not a good engine to use meth on even know many are doing it... but for a show it is awesome
I was also under the assumption that meth is generally reserved for forced induction systems where the compression of the air leads to higher air intake temperatures.

Does the S65 have a high enough compression ratio to take advantage of the meth injection?

Edit: ok the S65 12:1 compression ratio might be enough but still wondering the application of meth on normally aspirated engines (octane boost only?)

Last edited by mindless.spades; 06-29-2011 at 11:04 PM.
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      06-29-2011, 11:02 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
About what I expected from the supplier...

Come on guys, forget the form over function here. Huge downside risk and modest gains. It is like a bunch of trophy wives at a Tiffany store...
Heh, what, you don't think the car will run better sucking in bits of gravel and leftover tire, as well as small animals and children?

Sure, it might look cool, but I'm not convinced that the shorter intake runners and hot underhood engine air is going to do anything except make loud noises on the dyno.
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      06-29-2011, 11:56 PM   #69
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i think it looks tight!
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      06-30-2011, 12:27 AM   #70
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So we're taking an engine that already has individual throttle bodies, and a plenum designed to take advantage of pulse waves from matching cylinders (matching one that closes with one that's opening) for a particular rpm or rpm range and going to just straight itbs and saying it's an improvement? To me, it just seems like someone wanted to make some sexy looking verlocity stacks and this is just what that is. And to the manufacturer's credit, they didn't advertise it to be anything else.

And let's not even get going on the no air filter.

Workingin aerospace, it amuses me up when people get going on 6061. It's by far the weakest and cheapest grade of aerospace aluminum. 7075 and 2024? Now we're talkig and starting off on the right foot. But in aerospace, 6061 is typically used in non load bearing components (admittedly, the ITBs are by no means load bearing), but the material is nothing special. All you're paying for in this case is getting a material that's held to a tighter spec and has complete traceability down to each of the raw materials it's comprised of.
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      06-30-2011, 05:46 AM   #71
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that looks incredible!
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      06-30-2011, 08:24 AM   #72
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Great work
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      06-30-2011, 08:47 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mindless.spades View Post
I was also under the assumption that meth is generally reserved for forced induction systems where the compression of the air leads to higher air intake temperatures.

Does the S65 have a high enough compression ratio to take advantage of the meth injection?

Edit: ok the S65 12:1 compression ratio might be enough but still wondering the application of meth on normally aspirated engines (octane boost only?)
It's all about the knock control. The E9x M3's adaptive knock control uses an advanced form that measures ionic resistance of the gap in the spark plug inside the cylinder. This system originated with the E60 M5, and when it came out it was the most advanced form of knock control this side of F1.

While our owner/founder was taking his E60 M5 introduction class as part of his factory training, he theorized that the advanced knock control would continue to advance timing and make power, so long as the octane rating was high enough. This was the main reason behind our decision to run water-meth on the N/A S65B40 (which is based off the E60 M5's S85B50). We feel that as long as the adaptive knock control can keep pushing timing with a higher octane from the water-meth, we'll keep trying to pull power from that.

Obviously, risks are inherent. We understand that.

When we redesigned these stacks, we wanted an aesthetic that was an homage to Formula One (by way of the design of the water-meth bosses) while still putting our own take on it. After a few revisions, we ended up with what you see above. Included is a picture so you can kinda see where we're coming from in terms of aesthetics (this is a 2002 Ferrari Formula One engine):


Last edited by FluidMotorUnion; 06-30-2011 at 08:50 AM. Reason: deleted a rogue hyphen
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      06-30-2011, 08:57 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FluidMotorUnion View Post
It's all about the knock control. The E9x M3's adaptive knock control uses an advanced form that measures ionic resistance of the gap in the spark plug inside the cylinder. This system originated with the E60 M5, and when it came out it was the most advanced form of knock control this side of F1.

While our owner/founder was taking his E60 M5 introduction class as part of his factory training, he theorized that the advanced knock control would continue to advance timing and make power, so long as the octane rating was high enough. This was the main reason behind our decision to run water-meth on the N/A S65B40 (which is based off the E60 M5's S85B50). We feel that as long as the adaptive knock control can keep pushing timing with a higher octane from the water-meth, we'll keep trying to pull power from that.

Obviously, risks are inherent. We understand that.

When we redesigned these stacks, we wanted an aesthetic that was an homage to Formula One (by way of the design of the water-meth bosses) while still putting our own take on it. After a few revisions, we ended up with what you see above. Included is a picture so you can kinda see where we're coming from in terms of aesthetics (this is a 2002 Ferrari Formula One engine):

That definitely makes a lot of sense. This theory has been shown to make some solid gains in other applications, and I don't see why it wouldn't with your setup. I am definitely very interested in seeing the gains you guys make with this overall setup.

In the far future, I also plan on implementing W/M Injection with a CF Airbox on my E46 M3.

Keep up the innovation and hopefully things workout well with great results. I believe every product has different strokes for different folks.
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      06-30-2011, 08:58 AM   #75
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I can't even begin to imagine what this setup costs for the possibility of a few degrees of timing. Which by your statement you don't even seem positive or not if that happens??? I would've researched that long before all this engineering.
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      06-30-2011, 09:28 AM   #76
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JESUS.. hold on while i pick up my jaw from the floor..looks unbelievable.. vid's please!
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      06-30-2011, 09:53 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flipm3 View Post
That definitely makes a lot of sense. This theory has been shown to make some solid gains in other applications, and I don't see why it wouldn't with your setup. I am definitely very interested in seeing the gains you guys make with this overall setup.

In the far future, I also plan on implementing W/M Injection with a CF Airbox on my E46 M3.

Keep up the innovation and hopefully things workout well with great results. I believe every product has different strokes for different folks.
Thanks. Different strokes for different folks, indeed. There's nothing in the tuner world that garners 100% approval anyhow, which is a good thing; because if it did, it wouldn't be very original.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J08M3 View Post
I can't even begin to imagine what this setup costs for the possibility of a few degrees of timing. Which by your statement you don't even seem positive or not if that happens??? I would've researched that long before all this engineering.
Oh we never said we haven't done our research on this

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Originally Posted by xtose92 View Post
JESUS.. hold on while i pick up my jaw from the floor..looks unbelievable.. vid's please!
Video will be taken either Friday or Saturday, and posted on either Friday or Monday, depending on when we've got time to sit down and edit. All in due time, though.
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      06-30-2011, 09:55 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FluidMotorUnion View Post
Oh we never said we haven't done our research on this
Quote:
Originally Posted by FluidMotorUnion View Post

While our owner/founder was taking his E60 M5 introduction class as part of his factory training, he theorized that the advanced knock control would continue to advance timing and make power, so long as the octane rating was high enough. This was the main reason behind our decision to run water-meth on the N/A S65B40 (which is based off the E60 M5's S85B50). We feel that as long as the adaptive knock control can keep pushing timing with a higher octane from the water-meth, we'll keep trying to pull power from that.
You said "theorized".
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      06-30-2011, 10:02 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FluidMotorUnion View Post
Video will be taken either Friday or Saturday, and posted on either Friday or Monday, depending on when we've got time to sit down and edit. All in due time, though.
Hold onto the camera tightly!
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      06-30-2011, 10:11 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by J08M3 View Post
You said "theorized".
In the past tense. He was in BMW's STEP OS program at least half a decade ago (as the E60 M5 came out in MY06, if I recall correctly). Plenty of time (for research, beer, marriage, you name it) has happened between now and then.
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      06-30-2011, 10:53 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FluidMotorUnion View Post
It's all about the knock control. The E9x M3's adaptive knock control uses an advanced form that measures ionic resistance of the gap in the spark plug inside the cylinder. This system originated with the E60 M5, and when it came out it was the most advanced form of knock control this side of F1.

While our owner/founder was taking his E60 M5 introduction class as part of his factory training, he theorized that the advanced knock control would continue to advance timing and make power, so long as the octane rating was high enough. This was the main reason behind our decision to run water-meth on the N/A S65B40 (which is based off the E60 M5's S85B50). We feel that as long as the adaptive knock control can keep pushing timing with a higher octane from the water-meth, we'll keep trying to pull power from that.

Obviously, risks are inherent. We understand that.

When we redesigned these stacks, we wanted an aesthetic that was an homage to Formula One (by way of the design of the water-meth bosses) while still putting our own take on it. After a few revisions, we ended up with what you see above. Included is a picture so you can kinda see where we're coming from in terms of aesthetics (this is a 2002 Ferrari Formula One engine):
Thanks for the explanation!
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      06-30-2011, 10:57 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FluidMotorUnion View Post
In the past tense. He was in BMW's STEP OS program at least half a decade ago (as the E60 M5 came out in MY06, if I recall correctly). Plenty of time (for research, beer, marriage, you name it) has happened between now and then.
Sounds good, curious to see what HP benefits you may have picked up from this.
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      07-02-2011, 01:39 PM   #83
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Car looked good today. Shame i couldnt hear it.

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      07-03-2011, 01:43 AM   #84
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Quick youtube clip.



mean intake growl.....
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      07-03-2011, 08:21 AM   #85
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You made it sound like a VTEC Honda!!! No air filter, NO GOOD... at least it's cool looking.
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      07-03-2011, 02:14 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FluidMotorUnion View Post
It's all about the knock control. The E9x M3's adaptive knock control uses an advanced form that measures ionic resistance of the gap in the spark plug inside the cylinder. This system originated with the E60 M5, and when it came out it was the most advanced form of knock control this side of F1.

While our owner/founder was taking his E60 M5 introduction class as part of his factory training, he theorized that the advanced knock control would continue to advance timing and make power, so long as the octane rating was high enough. This was the main reason behind our decision to run water-meth on the N/A S65B40 (which is based off the E60 M5's S85B50). We feel that as long as the adaptive knock control can keep pushing timing with a higher octane from the water-meth, we'll keep trying to pull power from that.
Whoa - stop the presses - your theory is that modern engines can take advantage of higher octane fuel. This is no "theory" here and it is not your "theory" - this is completely accepted fact for most modern engines. The advanced knock control system in the M3 is not a prerequisite for this adaptation either.

Go mix a 50-50 tank of normal and race gas and get all of the benefits of increased power (almost for sure more gains than this system) with none of the downside risks and performance inhibitors. As stated prior you are loosing the benefits of a highly tuned BMW intake system and going filterless as well - no bueno.

Show the world that BMW M enthusiasts are not car jewelry whores and have discerning and fact based motivations in their modding efforts. Boycott the extreme form over function here.

Sorry OP, harsh but true.
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      07-03-2011, 03:49 PM   #87
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I would never do this but it looks sick!!

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Show the world that BMW M enthusiasts are not car jewelry whores and have discerning and fact based motivations in their modding efforts. Boycott the extreme form over function here.
They don't really represent the M community though... IMO, FMU is all about taking things to the extreme. Just take a look at their project cars, some pretty crazy stuff. It seems that they are aware of the risks involved and possible consequences for something that may produce minor gains. I give them props for doing something cool and different, even if its impractical and dangerous.
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      07-03-2011, 09:32 PM   #88
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It seems that they are aware of the risks involved and possible consequences for something that may produce minor gains. I give them props for doing something cool and different, even if its impractical and dangerous.
I just can't fall in line with cool and different trumping practicality and safety for very minimal power gains. That being said I do not go against originality and sometimes getting wild on the cosmetic side. That is what cars and modding are all about.
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