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      06-28-2011, 08:04 PM   #89
AngelinIsRich08
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Look. If you want speed and practicality, buy an X5M! 0-60 is done in 4.4 sec and it has 501 lb-ft of torque.
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      06-28-2011, 08:53 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Seattle S65B40 View Post
You seem to be leaving out the mileage, which is a key consideration. I know of some M3s that reatailed for $72K in 2008 and Sold for 40K but had around 50K miles. How many miles did you put on in 2.5 years?
Only 20k miles..
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      06-28-2011, 09:29 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by AngelinIsRich08 View Post
Look. If you want speed and practicality, buy an X5M! 0-60 is done in 4.4 sec and it has 501 lb-ft of torque.
There is more to cars than 0-60 time... Can't believe BMW customers is turning to Muscle Car owners...
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      06-29-2011, 03:27 AM   #92
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Hard for me to believe OP felt the M3 handles better than the 911...the M3 is numb feeling compared to the 911...911 much more precise and faster too...but M3 is easier to drive and alot more comfortable...911 is a true sports car whereas the M3 is a very nice compromise.
On smooth roads the 911 is a very rewarding car to drive and this shows up best on track where it really comes alive on a high grip smooth surface.
But drive on an uneven bumpy surface and this all goes away...there are country roads near where I live that the M3 can handle with ease while you have to back off the throttle in the 997 as it completely loses its composure with the light front end darting and weaving across the road.
The M3s handling and steering is certainly less sensitive and gives less feedback but the benefit is that it tracks straight over rough roads and gives a confidence that the 911 sorely misses....the M3 would leave a 997 behind on these sort of surfaces.
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      06-29-2011, 09:49 AM   #93
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I have some pretty bad roads around here and in my experience with a 997.2 GT3 (this may not be a good example because its suspension is far better than both cars) and a 997.2 Carrera S, youre seem to be exaggerating a bit. I found the 997S to be fine with bumpy roads and I thought it soaked up mid corner bumps better than my M3 when both are in sport mode. I much prefer the tactile scapel like precision of any Porsche's steering over the somewhat numb and muted M3s.
I agree with you wrt steering feel. Had a 997.2 C2S prior to my current '10 M3 and the steering feel is what I miss the most about the 911. It was very precise and direct and makes the M3 steering feel heavy and a little sloppy by comparison.
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      06-29-2011, 10:09 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
On smooth roads the 911 is a very rewarding car to drive and this shows up best on track where it really comes alive on a high grip smooth surface.
But drive on an uneven bumpy surface and this all goes away...there are country roads near where I live that the M3 can handle with ease while you have to back off the throttle in the 997 as it completely loses its composure with the light front end darting and weaving across the road.
The M3s handling and steering is certainly less sensitive and gives less feedback but the benefit is that it tracks straight over rough roads and gives a confidence that the 911 sorely misses....the M3 would leave a 997 behind on these sort of surfaces.
If you had used the word "Corvette" instead of "911", I would tend to agree in full, but regarding Porsche, this is an exaggeration.

In my own opinion, BMWs tend to be "best" at back-road banditry and the ride/handling compromise no matter the specific vehicle, but Porsche is certainly no slouch in these arenas.

In addition, the Porsche is just flat more fun. The OP did not in fact test the Porsche on "Porsche roads" if I am to believe his description. He said they were wide and curvy, which essentially means he did not get to really experience Porsche steering and brakes to their fullest. "Wide and curvy" describes C63 roads.

On the other hand, if wide and curvy describes the roads he drives on for fun, then the M3 is definitely the better deal.
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      06-29-2011, 10:19 AM   #95
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I have some pretty bad roads around here and in my experience with a 997.2 GT3 (this may not be a good example because its suspension is far better than both cars) and a 997.2 Carrera S, youre seem to be exaggerating a bit. I found the 997S to be fine with bumpy roads and I thought it soaked up mid corner bumps better than my M3 when both are in sport mode. I much prefer the tactile scapel like precision of any Porsche's steering over the somewhat numb and muted M3s.
I stand by what I said..this was a back to back drive down some lovely (but bumpy) country roads that my M3 takes without drama while the 997.2 S was literally all over the road until I eased off the throttle, its the price you pay for lively steering and a light front end, you can't have it both ways...the M3s steering is certainly "numb and muted" by comparison but its not without its benefit.
I drove 911s for the best part of 20 years, I love them and felt almost instantly at home in the 997 so its not a case of I have an M3 so I'm going to big up its performance and downplay the Porsches'.
If I had the money I would swop the M3 for a 997 turbo in a heartbeat...I don't think I would swop it for a 997.2s though.
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      06-29-2011, 10:29 AM   #96
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In addition, the Porsche is just flat more fun.
There is definitely that.
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      06-29-2011, 10:42 AM   #97
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I was quoted 8K by a few dealerships when we were shopping for 355, so we ended up getting the 996 GT2. Something about 8K is a lot of bags and shoes by the mrs...

Shame, because I like the look of the 355 the best over 360, 430, and even the Italia.
and that's why the value of 360 and 355 will continue to drop, until this absurdity ends. Sure I can afford a 355 too, but come on, 8k for 1 service? gtfo, who in their right minds would buy a 355 that's coming up on scheduled service? Yeah, a rich guy might, but if you have so much money to pay for servicing, why not just buy a newer F430 that's years away from servicing?
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      06-29-2011, 03:55 PM   #98
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First off, the 997s steering is just superb. Your hands feel like they are on the tierods themselves. I love my E92 M3 but the low speed steering feel is just not up to snuff vs. the PCar, granted as it comes to speed it gets much better but you just don't get the same feel and connection to the steering as you do in the PCar. Of course on a race track the 997 is going to be faster, but you are going to have to know how to use the rear engine bias to turn the car. If you can learn how to hang out a 997 to get that light front end to turn and then use the rear engine bias to let those huge 295/305 tires dig you out of the corner with the sweet low end/midrange of the engine and you can see how the PCar is going to be faster. I find my E92 M3 looking for traction all the time. I can get the rearend to hangout with ease in the M3. The diffy is superb in the M3 and really keeps things in check, but wheelspin means you are losing time.

That all being said when I read the 997S just demolishes an M3 I think you guys are doing a disservice. I know for me I bought into this and went out and bought a new 07 997.1S and to be honest I was underwhelmed. When I finally learned how to drive the car is when I fell in love with the car, but I never felt it was that much better than my somewhat modded E46 M3. I know Greg and others are going to have a different opinion, that is great, thats what makes these boards a good source of info. There is no right or wrong in this. In some respects I don't even see how the M3 and PCar can even be compared. I literally laugh to myself when someone tries to compare a M3 to a GT3, get real. A decently equipped M3 comes in under $70k, a new GT3 is well over the $110k range if you buy new.

The clincher on why I sold the 997 was when I couldn't afford to have a DD and the PCar. Thats when I decided to switch to the E92 M3 and I'm glad I did.

Dave
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      06-29-2011, 04:29 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by mdosu View Post
and that's why the value of 360 and 355 will continue to drop, until this absurdity ends. Sure I can afford a 355 too, but come on, 8k for 1 service? gtfo, who in their right minds would buy a 355 that's coming up on scheduled service? Yeah, a rich guy might, but if you have so much money to pay for servicing, why not just buy a newer F430 that's years away from servicing?
It's a little crazy, but I'd have to assume that those guys working at Ferrari service are the BEST of the BEST. Please tell me I'm right...

I think it's also an exclusivity thing, could you imagine if everyone owned and maintained a ferarri? Ferrari wouldn't be Ferrari..it would become like porsche.

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First off, the 997s steering is just superb. Your hands feel like they are on the tierods themselves. I love my E92 M3 but the low speed steering feel is just not up to snuff vs. the PCar, granted as it comes to speed it gets much better but you just don't get the same feel and connection to the steering as you do in the PCar. Of course on a race track the 997 is going to be faster, but you are going to have to know how to use the rear engine bias to turn the car. If you can learn how to hang out a 997 to get that light front end to turn and then use the rear engine bias to let those huge 295/305 tires dig you out of the corner with the sweet low end/midrange of the engine and you can see how the PCar is going to be faster. I find my E92 M3 looking for traction all the time. I can get the rearend to hangout with ease in the M3. The diffy is superb in the M3 and really keeps things in check, but wheelspin means you are losing time.

That all being said when I read the 997S just demolishes an M3 I think you guys are doing a disservice. I know for me I bought into this and went out and bought a new 07 997.1S and to be honest I was underwhelmed. When I finally learned how to drive the car is when I fell in love with the car, but I never felt it was that much better than my somewhat modded E46 M3. I know Greg and others are going to have a different opinion, that is great, thats what makes these boards a good source of info. There is no right or wrong in this. In some respects I don't even see how the M3 and PCar can even be compared. I literally laugh to myself when someone tries to compare a M3 to a GT3, get real. A decently equipped M3 comes in under $70k, a new GT3 is well over the $110k range if you buy new.

The clincher on why I sold the 997 was when I couldn't afford to have a DD and the PCar. Thats when I decided to switch to the E92 M3 and I'm glad I did.

Dave
Good ****ing ****. I love reading rational and real world opinions.
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      06-30-2011, 12:39 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Dave07997S View Post
First off, the 997s steering is just superb. Your hands feel like they are on the tierods themselves. I love my E92 M3 but the low speed steering feel is just not up to snuff vs. the PCar, granted as it comes to speed it gets much better but you just don't get the same feel and connection to the steering as you do in the PCar. Of course on a race track the 997 is going to be faster, but you are going to have to know how to use the rear engine bias to turn the car. If you can learn how to hang out a 997 to get that light front end to turn and then use the rear engine bias to let those huge 295/305 tires dig you out of the corner with the sweet low end/midrange of the engine and you can see how the PCar is going to be faster. I find my E92 M3 looking for traction all the time. I can get the rearend to hangout with ease in the M3. The diffy is superb in the M3 and really keeps things in check, but wheelspin means you are losing time.

That all being said when I read the 997S just demolishes an M3 I think you guys are doing a disservice. I know for me I bought into this and went out and bought a new 07 997.1S and to be honest I was underwhelmed. When I finally learned how to drive the car is when I fell in love with the car, but I never felt it was that much better than my somewhat modded E46 M3. I know Greg and others are going to have a different opinion, that is great, thats what makes these boards a good source of info. There is no right or wrong in this. In some respects I don't even see how the M3 and PCar can even be compared. I literally laugh to myself when someone tries to compare a M3 to a GT3, get real. A decently equipped M3 comes in under $70k, a new GT3 is well over the $110k range if you buy new.

The clincher on why I sold the 997 was when I couldn't afford to have a DD and the PCar. Thats when I decided to switch to the E92 M3 and I'm glad I did.

Dave
A very balanced post!! I always feel that people who trumpet how superior a P car is relative to an M3 fail to realize that the fact that the 2 cars are being uttered in the same sentence is proof that M3 is the more capable car. It's pretty idiotic to compare them when P cars are essentially one trick ponies. That one trick, they do damn well. M3s are all rounded cars that while not besting P cars, they are putting up a pretty good fight in areas where P cars do well. I love the steering feel of 911s and i doubt M3 steering will ever feel that way. However, i also doubt P cars will carry 4 in comfort and a decent luggage space for all and yet be exciting to drive.
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      06-30-2011, 02:55 AM   #101
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I find my E92 M3 looking for traction all the time. I can get the rearend to hangout with ease in the M3. The diffy is superb in the M3 and really keeps things in check, but wheelspin means you are losing time.
I'm pretty much there with the essence of the rest of your post but with reference to the M3s relatively poor traction:
You really ought to try out the new Michelin Pilot Super Sport tyres...they are a significant step up in traction and grip over the PS2s.
I put them on the rear of my M3 (PS2s still in the front) a month or so ago and the improvement in traction is really impressive...power oversteer is way harder to provoke, I'm finding myself incrementally pushing the rear of the car harder and harder to see where the grip ends.
Eg: near me is a right turn out of a junction, a short straight and then a sharp left bend with an uneven surface....so normally its pull out of the junction, full throttle in first to the red line, shift to second then turn in and ease off the throttle to keep the rear mostly in line then back on full throttle...with the PSSs you can take the same bend flat in second.
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      06-30-2011, 08:24 AM   #102
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A very balanced post!! I always feel that people who trumpet how superior a P car is relative to an M3 fail to realize that the fact that the 2 cars are being uttered in the same sentence is proof that M3 is the more capable car. It's pretty idiotic to compare them when P cars are essentially one trick ponies. That one trick, they do damn well. M3s are all rounded cars that while not besting P cars, they are putting up a pretty good fight in areas where P cars do well. I love the steering feel of 911s and i doubt M3 steering will ever feel that way. However, i also doubt P cars will carry 4 in comfort and a decent luggage space for all and yet be exciting to drive.
At the same time, the only 911s anyone is comparing them to are the entry level cars. In no way can anything BMW makes compete when you take a look at GTx Porsches. The M3 GTS is an utter failure in that it competes with what Porsche was bulding 5 years ago. Shows you just how much more superior Porsche is in that area.
And we all know Porsche can make an all around car with a big trunk and seats 4...the Panamera (whether you personally like it or not), is the size of a 7 series, but puts one to shame when it comes to luxury, its faster than an m5 in a straight, and will beat an M3 on any track. And yes, its one of, if not the most exciting sedan to drive.
If Porsche wanted to come out with a GT car and price it at 70-80, maybe thew reincarnation of the 928, the M3 wouldnt stand a chance.

This is a quote about the Panamera 4S (400 hp), and the turbo/turbo S are even better.

"With the exception of the Panamera's awesome skid pad number, which is simply light-years ahead of anything else on the planet with four doors, only the last BMW M5 we tested can match or come close to the Porsche's test numbers. This might give the impression that an M5 could keep up with the Panamera 4S on a mountain road.

Well, it can't. And neither can any other four-door you can think of, including anything else with AMG or M on its deck lid."
Without a reference your quote is meaningless and utterly useless, even if accurate.
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      06-30-2011, 09:21 AM   #103
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The M3 GTS is an utter failure in that it competes with what Porsche was bulding 5+ years ago. Shows you just how much more superior Porsche is in that area.
I think the problem of M3 GTS is that it is based on the M3, which is based on the 3 series: big. heavy.
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      06-30-2011, 02:32 PM   #104
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Well, according to the envious Porsche haters, the 911 is based on a VW bug, and is set up in the most inherently wrong way to build a car, yet its still one of, if not the best car in the world at any given time.
Greg, my plate for my 9997S was going to be 1BADBUG...Meant it in a cool way..

There is no doubt when you compare what BMW and Porsche have to offer as far as track toys and such there is no doubt Porsche rules. I think back and realize my 997S would be out of its lease right now and my buyout was just $40k..I'm thinking I maybe should have kept it and bought a Fusion to putz around town.

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      06-30-2011, 02:33 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
I'm pretty much there with the essence of the rest of your post but with reference to the M3s relatively poor traction:
You really ought to try out the new Michelin Pilot Super Sport tyres...they are a significant step up in traction and grip over the PS2s.
I put them on the rear of my M3 (PS2s still in the front) a month or so ago and the improvement in traction is really impressive...power oversteer is way harder to provoke, I'm finding myself incrementally pushing the rear of the car harder and harder to see where the grip ends.
Eg: near me is a right turn out of a junction, a short straight and then a sharp left bend with an uneven surface....so normally its pull out of the junction, full throttle in first to the red line, shift to second then turn in and ease off the throttle to keep the rear mostly in line then back on full throttle...with the PSSs you can take the same bend flat in second.
Going with 19X10 front and 19X11 rear, tires will be 275/30/19 front and 295/30/19 rear Mich PSS's. Can't wait..

Dave
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      07-04-2011, 03:48 PM   #106
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i like the OP and his honesty. +1 thread.
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      07-04-2011, 03:55 PM   #107
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At the same time, the only 911s anyone is comparing them to are the entry level cars. In no way can anything BMW makes compete when you take a look at GTx Porsches. The M3 GTS is an utter failure in that it competes with what Porsche was bulding 5+ years ago. Shows you just how much more superior Porsche is in that area.
And we all know Porsche can make an all around car with a big trunk and seats 4...the Panamera (whether you personally like it or not), is the size of a 7 series, but puts one to shame when it comes to luxury, its faster than an m5 in a straight, and will beat an M3 on any track. And yes, its one of, if not the most exciting sedan to drive.
If Porsche wanted to come out with a GT car and price it at 70-80, maybe thew reincarnation of the 928, the M3 wouldnt stand a chance.

This is a quote about the Panamera 4S (400 hp), and the turbo/turbo S are even better.

"With the exception of the Panamera's awesome skid pad number, which is simply light-years ahead of anything else on the planet with four doors, only the last BMW M5 we tested can match or come close to the Porsche's test numbers. This might give the impression that an M5 could keep up with the Panamera 4S on a mountain road.

Well, it can't. And neither can any other four-door you can think of, including anything else with AMG or M on its deck lid."
the panamera is not same size as a 7 series. more likely closer in size to the new m5.
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      07-04-2011, 04:02 PM   #108
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The bottom line is that Porsches are better cars than BMWs. If you pit a carrera S vs an M3 the carrera S is better in everything that has to do with performance whether it be speed, acceleration, handling, or driver feel. It is a much harder car to drive properly so for driving novices like the OP I can see why they wouldn't feel as comfortable. As some people like to say Porsches are a poor mans ferrari. The M3 is a poor mans Porsche.

I have nothing wrong with the people that are saying that they simply prefer their M3 over porsches, but I do take issue with the people who try and prove that their M3 is better than a porsche. They simply aren't... end of story.
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      07-04-2011, 04:04 PM   #109
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The bottom line is that Porsches are better cars than BMWs. If you pit a carrera S vs an M3 the carrera S is better in everything that has to do with performance whether it be speed, acceleration, handling, or driver feel. It is a much harder car to drive properly so for driving novices like the OP I can see why they wouldn't feel as comfortable. As some people like to say Porsches are a poor mans ferrari. The M3 is a poor mans Porsche.

I have nothing wrong with the people that are saying that they simply prefer their M3 over porsches, but I do take issue with the people who try and prove that their M3 is better than a porsche. They simply aren't... end of story.
You know that, and I know that, but some people don't and refuse to accept that fact. M3post has some members who are real automotive enthusiasts and understand that Porsche is at another level when it comes to performance and driving technology. Tell that to e90post and you'll get flamed by a bunch of 14 year old's who have a 335i but don't have a license.
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You sound like my buddies who have AMG's - Slam the gas, slam the brakes...
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      07-04-2011, 11:05 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by bholloway View Post
The bottom line is that Porsches are better cars than BMWs. If you pit a carrera S vs an M3 the carrera S is better in everything that has to do with performance whether it be speed, acceleration, handling, or driver feel. It is a much harder car to drive properly so for driving novices like the OP I can see why they wouldn't feel as comfortable. As some people like to say Porsches are a poor mans ferrari. The M3 is a poor mans Porsche.

I have nothing wrong with the people that are saying that they simply prefer their M3 over porsches, but I do take issue with the people who try and prove that their M3 is better than a porsche. They simply aren't... end of story.
That very much depends on the definition of "better." If better means absolute track driving or out and out handling, then Porsche takes the cake. If better means day to day usable, practical, all rounded... then the verdict is different.
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