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      06-23-2011, 09:54 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by M3luvr View Post
I would love to track my car, but my wife won't let me!
That actually happens quite a lot out there,the correct course of action is to politely show here where to head for the day..Good Luck!

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      06-23-2011, 09:56 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by smmmurf View Post
+1

And two, the track is significantly more dangerous than the street. Without naming specific events, one or two out of 80 cars that sign up for HPDE 1/2 are generally totalled each time there is a weekend event at Infineon Raceway. If you include Group 3 and 4, there are usually about 3-4 totals out of maybe 200 cars. The odds are lower at Thunderhill, Willow Springs, or Buttonwillow, but still. Much riskier than your normal drive down the boulevard. Lol.
Who the hell are you running with??? Did you SEE this or did you "hear from a friend?"

Most of the accidents that occur at true HPDE are in the advanced group with more liberal passing, higher speeds and R-compound tires. They grip like crazy, but they they're done gripping, they just break loose and they really suck if you get in any dirt or the marbles. I've never seen an accident in a beginner or novice group and only saw 1 in and Advanced group in 10 track days the last 2 years. I have been caught in traffic due to an accident on the way to or from a HPDE.

Infineon does have walls for half the course, but so does AAA and Laguna Seca, and Willow has LOTS of rocks if you go off, but like I've said, leave DSC on, and you'd have to literally drive off track or be an idiot to get in serious trouble.

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      06-23-2011, 10:03 PM   #91
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Who the hell are you running with??? Did you SEE this or did you "hear from a friend?"

Most of the accidents that occur at true HPDE are in the advanced group with more liberal passing, higher speeds and R-compound tires. They grip like crazy, but they they're done gripping, they just break loose and they really suck if you get in any dirt or the marbles. I've never seen an accident in a beginner or novice group and only saw 1 in and Advanced group in 10 track days the last 2 years. I have been caught in traffic due to an accident on the way to or from a HPDE.

Infineon does have walls for half the course, but so does AAA and Laguna Seca, and Willow has LOTS of rocks if you go off, but like I've said, leave DSC on, and you'd have to literally drive off track or be an idiot to get in serious trouble.

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      06-23-2011, 10:17 PM   #92
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Who the hell are you running with??? Did you SEE this or did you "hear from a friend?"

Most of the accidents that occur at true HPDE are in the advanced group with more liberal passing, higher speeds and R-compound tires. They grip like crazy, but they they're done gripping, they just break loose and they really suck if you get in any dirt or the marbles. I've never seen an accident in a beginner or novice group and only saw 1 in and Advanced group in 10 track days the last 2 years. I have been caught in traffic due to an accident on the way to or from a HPDE.

Infineon does have walls for half the course, but so does AAA and Laguna Seca, and Willow has LOTS of rocks if you go off, but like I've said, leave DSC on, and you'd have to literally drive off track or be an idiot to get in serious trouble.

.
Hmm...I think he is trying to say that normal 0-65 daily driving is safer than tracking your car, where you exceed speeds of 100mph.
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      06-23-2011, 10:32 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
Who the hell are you running with??? Did you SEE this or did you "hear from a friend?"

Most of the accidents that occur at true HPDE are in the advanced group with more liberal passing, higher speeds and R-compound tires. They grip like crazy, but they they're done gripping, they just break loose and they really suck if you get in any dirt or the marbles. I've never seen an accident in a beginner or novice group and only saw 1 in and Advanced group in 10 track days the last 2 years. I have been caught in traffic due to an accident on the way to or from a HPDE.

Infineon does have walls for half the course, but so does AAA and Laguna Seca, and Willow has LOTS of rocks if you go off, but like I've said, leave DSC on, and you'd have to literally drive off track or be an idiot to get in serious trouble.

.
Yes, I've seen the cars first hand. This is the same organization that the OP is talking about ("HPDE"). I instruct for them from time to time, and that is actually how many street cars get totalled out of the 4 run groups every time we have an event at Infineon. 2-4 cars don't make it home out of maybe 200-300 entrants. More if it's wet. I have not noticed any correlation between novice and advanced groups and frequency of crashes. However I do notice as you said that advanced students crash harder due to higher speeds and R compound tires.

I have done well over a hundred track days in the last 6-7 years, probably around 25 with this group.
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      06-23-2011, 10:34 PM   #94
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I said SOME people. Not ALL. SOME people don't really have a reason for not going to the track. They're just scared to get involved with that kind of stuff all together...
I've never tracked, but I don't understand why people would be scared to track especially when they buy a powerful car like the M3
I'd love to get down at the track if I ever had the opportunity.
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      06-23-2011, 10:57 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by smmmurf View Post
Yes, I've seen the cars first hand. This is the same organization that the OP is talking about ("HPDE"). I instruct for them from time to time, and that is actually how many street cars get totalled out of the 4 run groups every time we have an event at Infineon. 2-4 cars don't make it home out of maybe 200-300 entrants. More if it's wet. I have not noticed any correlation between novice and advanced groups and frequency of crashes. However I do notice as you said that advanced students crash harder due to higher speeds and R compound tires.

I have done well over a hundred track days in the last 6-7 years, probably around 25 with this group.
In that case, reminder to self to never run with "HPDE." You're a BRAVE soul for instructing with them.
I've always done my HPDE with the CCA and it's a very safe environment.

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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      06-23-2011, 11:13 PM   #96
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Agreed...Most wrecks are in advanced group with R compounds...only time I see trouble in novice group is when the young guys show up with the 650HP Supras and hit 150mph on the straight aways but they have no concept of brake fade......I have seen a few of these guys miss the chicane and go straight through it into the dirt.



Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
Who the hell are you running with??? Did you SEE this or did you "hear from a friend?"

Most of the accidents that occur at true HPDE are in the advanced group with more liberal passing, higher speeds and R-compound tires. They grip like crazy, but they they're done gripping, they just break loose and they really suck if you get in any dirt or the marbles. I've never seen an accident in a beginner or novice group and only saw 1 in and Advanced group in 10 track days the last 2 years. I have been caught in traffic due to an accident on the way to or from a HPDE.

Infineon does have walls for half the course, but so does AAA and Laguna Seca, and Willow has LOTS of rocks if you go off, but like I've said, leave DSC on, and you'd have to literally drive off track or be an idiot to get in serious trouble.

.
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      06-23-2011, 11:17 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by eamon View Post
I've never tracked, but I don't understand why people would be scared to track especially when they buy a powerful car like the M3
I'd love to get down at the track if I ever had the opportunity.
Haha...ride shotgun with an instructor in a Z06 with R compounds and you will know why should be scared...odds favor there will be feces and one testicle floating in your shorts when he is done with you......and your forearm with be numb and sore from you clutching the door handle for 5 minutes straight.
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      06-23-2011, 11:17 PM   #98
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I suspect many car enthusiast have no clue what HPDE is really all about until they start doing these events. I can understand the concern but the reality is we are very lucky to have such great cars and safe places to drive them at speed while improving our own driving skills. There is no safe place on the street where you could possible drive like you can on a real race track with proper instruction.
Exactly. Going to an HPDE is MUCH MUCH safer than being around all the idiots on public roads. It's funny because I just did my first HPDE at Laguna Seca about 3 weeks ago. I had so many fears before that day (as most first timers would). After that day, I felt so much more scared driving on public roads because of all the idiots who "think" they can drive, but really can't. Going to an HPDE totally enlightens you to the fact that you really can't drive and being aware of that is the starting point. Best car experience ever and can't wait to go again and again.

HPDE's are not about racing. They are about becoming a better driver. And if you've never been to a driving school at a track before, you are fooling yourself thinking you are a good driver. After 18 years of driving, I just learned that 3 weeks ago.
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      06-23-2011, 11:27 PM   #99
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Not enough run-off lol
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      06-23-2011, 11:45 PM   #100
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1) I bought the convertible because I wanted a grand tourer, not a track car.

2) I think some of us had to scatch and save for a long time to get our M3's. With no formal training on track driving, I would be really scared to go out on the track with my $70k car.
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      06-24-2011, 12:18 AM   #101
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Exactly. Going to an HPDE is MUCH MUCH safer than being around all the idiots on public roads. It's funny because I just did my first HPDE at Laguna Seca about 3 weeks ago. I had so many fears before that day (as most first timers would). After that day, I felt so much more scared driving on public roads because of all the idiots who "think" they can drive, but really can't. Going to an HPDE totally enlightens you to the fact that you really can't drive and being aware of that is the starting point. Best car experience ever and can't wait to go again and again.

HPDE's are not about racing. They are about becoming a better driver. And if you've never been to a driving school at a track before, you are fooling yourself thinking you are a good driver. After 18 years of driving, I just learned that 3 weeks ago.
Sorry but i am an advocate of HPDE's but no it isn't.

Anytime your going 100+mph and pushing a car, it's components, and the driver closer to their limits you will greatly increase your chances for an accident.
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      06-24-2011, 12:22 AM   #102
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I tracked my e36 m3 when I still had it and enjoyed it a lot. Wouldn't want to track my M5 as it's pretty heavy and would be afraid of crashing it. I'll probably pick up another e36 m3 down the road as a weekend/track car since they're cheap and I wouldn't care as much if something bad happened.
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      06-24-2011, 01:45 AM   #103
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Quote:
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Sorry but i am an advocate of HPDE's but no it isn't.

Anytime your going 100+mph and pushing a car, it's components, and the driver closer to their limits you will greatly increase your chances for an accident.
You should come drive in some of the more congested roads in California for a few weeks. You'll change your tune quickly. Picking up my son from preschool each day is 10x more dangerous than my day in the beginner group at the last HPDE I attended. Even on non traffic days, I've had a prius fly by me at 90+ mph with a spare tire on the back wheel. Large trucks, SUVs and minivans constantly almost sideswipe me because they are busy talking on their phones and don't carefully look for cars around them. I see almost an accident a day on my 20 minute drive to pick up my son. The freeways here can be insane during traffic times.

I know HPDE's can be dangerous. But we are talking about those who have never been to a track before. The beginner group is about as safe as driving can get. There's no reason to scare off those of us who have never been to a track before. There are strict passing rules, you are generally focusing on your line and being smooth rather than trying to go as fast as you can, and you have an instructor sitting next to you to help you out. You aren't going fast enough to where traction control is a hinderance and you are well within the cars limits on your first time out. My first event was through BMWCCA so maybe they just put on a really safe and confidence inspiring event.
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      06-24-2011, 02:02 AM   #104
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You should come drive in some of the more congested roads in California for a few weeks. You'll change your tune quickly. Picking up my son from preschool each day is 10x more dangerous than my day in the beginner group at the last HPDE I attended. Even on non traffic days, I've had a prius fly by me at 90+ mph with a spare tire on the back wheel. Large trucks, SUVs and minivans constantly almost sideswipe me because they are busy talking on their phones and don't carefully look for cars around them. I see almost an accident a day on my 20 minute drive to pick up my son. The freeways here can be insane during traffic times.

I know HPDE's can be dangerous. But we are talking about those who have never been to a track before. The beginner group is about as safe as driving can get. There's no reason to scare off those of us who have never been to a track before. There are strict passing rules, you are generally focusing on your line and being smooth rather than trying to go as fast as you can, and you have an instructor sitting next to you to help you out. You aren't going fast enough to where traction control is a hinderance and you are well within the cars limits on your first time out. My first event was through BMWCCA so maybe they just put on a really safe and confidence inspiring event.
Not trying to scare people off, driving on the track is relatively safe as long as you go in with an open attitude to learn and listen to your instructor... but it's still track driving which always a risk.

Anyone who is on the fence about going should go, you don't need any special preparations to your car (my race car is a 1986 635csi that I bought for $600 on craigslist and is basically stock mechanically and it handles track duty ok).
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      06-24-2011, 02:05 AM   #105
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Sorry but i am an advocate of HPDE's but no it isn't.

Anytime your going 100+mph and pushing a car, it's components, and the driver closer to their limits you will greatly increase your chances for an accident.
Calm it down,you make it sound like people are out there racing wheel to wheel and will do anything to get on the podium.There are rules in place and if you follow and have skills of a 16 year old you come away with a new found respect for the car and your abilities.Nobody but an idiot is gonna go out there and let loose their first time out,99 percent of first time attendees are consumed with the wealth of info they are absorbing and are too damn scared to push the car to begin with.

These cars are very forgiving and easy to drive even at 9/10's,a typical new driver is not even at 7/10's and is too busy learning lines and trying to get over fears they've had before coming to the track.100mph is nothing in an M3,let a lone at the race track
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      06-24-2011, 02:21 AM   #106
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These cars are very forgiving and easy to drive even at 9/10's,a typical new driver is not even at 7/10's and is too busy learning lines and trying to get over fears they've had before coming to the track.100mph is nothing in an M3,let a lone at the race track
100mph is nothing in an m3 until a wheel bearing fails, someone spills oil or coolant on the track, or so some wannabe hotshoe decides he needs to try his lewis hamilton impression 2 feet from your bumper.

Likelihood of these things happening isn't very high, but they still can and do happen. Any well run HPDE has rules and procedures in place to minimize these risks but sadly there is simply no such thing as risk free track time.
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      06-24-2011, 02:31 AM   #107
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You should come drive in some of the more congested roads in California for a few weeks. You'll change your tune quickly. Picking up my son from preschool each day is 10x more dangerous than my day in the beginner group at the last HPDE I attended. Even on non traffic days, I've had a prius fly by me at 90+ mph with a spare tire on the back wheel. Large trucks, SUVs and minivans constantly almost sideswipe me because they are busy talking on their phones and don't carefully look for cars around them. I see almost an accident a day on my 20 minute drive to pick up my son. The freeways here can be insane during traffic times.

I know HPDE's can be dangerous. But we are talking about those who have never been to a track before. The beginner group is about as safe as driving can get. There's no reason to scare off those of us who have never been to a track before. There are strict passing rules, you are generally focusing on your line and being smooth rather than trying to go as fast as you can, and you have an instructor sitting next to you to help you out. You aren't going fast enough to where traction control is a hinderance and you are well within the cars limits on your first time out. My first event was through BMWCCA so maybe they just put on a really safe and confidence inspiring event.
I was out there with you at Laguna.
The CCA runs a GREAT track day, especially for the new/virgin track person. It was good to see so many M3's out there. I had the Space Grey with the black bra on. You should try to make Buttonwillow in a week. It's suppose to be a great track to learn on.

As for driving on congested city roads, it's pretty bad, particularly with people on cell phones and txting; despite Cali laws against doing this, people do it all the time.

.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      06-24-2011, 02:37 AM   #108
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100mph is nothing in an m3 until a wheel bearing fails, someone spills oil or coolant on the track, or so some wannabe hotshoe decides he needs to try his lewis hamilton impression 2 feet from your bumper.

Likelihood of these things happening isn't very high, but they still can and do happen. Any well run HPDE has rules and procedures in place to minimize these risks but sadly there is simply no such thing as risk free track time.
Wheel baring falls off on a newer M3? LoL really? How about people pushing their cars on public roads around unsuspecting commuters? There are risks involved in any kind of motoring.Can't tell me those that do not track don't try to explore the limits of their cars on the street.I rather blow a wheel baring or hit an oil slick at the track then on a public road.Even at 100mph.

You will get black flagged quick,for riding someone's bumper for more than a corner at the track events I go to.There is a point by system in place and most follow it or they get reprimanded accordingly.Unless you're in advanced group in an open wheel car or a full on race car nobody is gonna sit on your rear bumper successfully for too long,and if they do let them go by at the next corner or straight.Beginner group sessions are great for anyone looking to enjoy their car in a safe,controlled environment without the fear of the unknown at the next corner.A good instructor is the key for overcoming lot of the unknowns.Ask lots of questions and do a lot of listening,then go out there and apply.
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      06-24-2011, 03:01 AM   #109
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The reason not everyone tracks their car is amply demonstrated by the various replies to the OP which range from the eminently sensible to the very definition of why some BMW owners are cocks (if you have put the word pussy in your reply then you are in this group). Everyone is different, people buy cars for there own reasons and the desire to track is not always one of them.
I've done quite a few track days (most in 911s) and really enjoyed them but the idea that tracking your car is more hardcore than driving hard on empty country roads is totally back to front...you make a mistake on the track and you are going to get away with it 999/1000 times, you make a mistake on a tree lined country road at speed and you will be lucky to walk away. The rush is in the danger as much as it is in the speed.
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      06-24-2011, 03:18 AM   #110
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I think everyone should try one track day. It will really make you enjoy your car that much more IMO. Especially when we have a car like the e9x m3 where it really shines on a track.
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