Broken Subframe and Differential. Dealer won't fix. $9k in damage. Any advice?

[stefan]

Originally Posted by Nelrock

There's enough electronics in this car...if BMW wanted to limit or prohibit something...they could.
They advertise a high reving engine...and they included launch control.
If use of either voids the warranty, then they should expressly stated that. Launch control has nothing more than a casual statement saying something to the effect that overuse "could" lead to premature part wear.

I'm standing by some other modification was done to this vehicle. Otherwise, I think the OP has a good court case.

Exactly. That is why VDC was removed from GTRs, after a short period where they revised the manual to say "if you use this feature; your warranty is void".

Anyway, subframes shouldn't break. Not even with launches. It's RWD. Furthermore it's an M. Dunno where you guys are hearing that OP did clutch dumps but lets say he just used launch control. Would that be OK? Doesn't say that it should void warranty (only that it should be avoided to use it often).

Personally.. I wouldn't launch my vehicle. I wouldn't even use launch control. For me it's never saved me any time at autox or anything. Makes more sense to be gentle/smooth. Just my 2c anyway..

I think OP has a case here. Dealership does not want to pay $9K. That is all.

[Kyoshi71]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

More likely is that the BMW engineer was told that the owner had installed a non-BMW exhaust and he found evidence that the third party installer had caused or contributed to the subframe/Diff failure.

Now we're getting somewhere.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by stefan

Dealership does not want to pay $9K. That is all.

The dealership reclaims money spent on warranty work from BMW so they couldn't care less.
Given how litigious N. America is, its reasonable to assume the engineer that BMW sent to inspect the car had a good case to reject the damage as not covered by the warranty.

[Singletrack]

Originally Posted by swamp2

No one can interpret your subtle, delicate, shaded undertones of literary beauty... Come on get with the program. What you wrote is still patently false and now you are both back pedaling and refusing to discuss it. I'm not trying to be difficult, nor attack you, it is just what you wrote is so blatantly false. Heck, I also agree with your overall opinion that one should not abuse expensive hardware. Nonetheless your statements veracity is also independent of whether or not you consider an M3 to be an expensive car. Any reasonable reader would assume your initial comment was refering to an M3. Furthermore even if you weren't, smart owners of Ferrari's and Lamborghini's also launch their cars, some of them do it often. Do you need a bloody youtube video of someone showing their Doctorate diploma and launching a Veyron to see your mistake?

You are wasting your breath. He often makes ridiculous, arrogant, and inaccurate statements then "signs off" the thread when challenged. It's pretty funny really.

[stefan]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

The dealership reclaims money spent on warranty work from BMW so they couldn't care less.
Given how litigious N. America is, its reasonable to assume the engineer that BMW sent to inspect the car had a good case to reject the damage as not covered by the warranty.

Not exactly. Dealerships don't want to have to request more than what's expected from BMWNA.

[TX]

Originally Posted by Mike@Powerchip

I have purchased a few cars from Center, and know that dealership very well. I will find out about this.

By no means should a clutch drop be covered under warranty. Especially if it's past 4k - there is simply no need for that.

I have a feeling there is more to this, but I could be wrong.

A clutch drop without wheel hop isn't going to break a subframe and a rear diff.
There is obviously more going on here. Maybe he had some broken bolts and the drop caused the remaining bolts to fail and blew the subframe causing a diff failure.

But who knows?

[TX]

Originally Posted by ///My5UV

I'd love to hear the dealer's side of this story.

Yes, no mention was made by the OP as to what reasoning the dealer gave. What was done to the car that caused them to void his warranty? We need more details.

[FStop7]

Originally Posted by Singletrack

You are wasting your breath. He often makes ridiculous, arrogant, and inaccurate statements then "signs off" the thread when challenged. It's pretty funny really.

And here I thought I was the only one who noticed this.


On topic - I dunno, this is like the third or fourth time I've seen a thread about this kind of failure on here. I'm starting to wonder if there may be something more to this than just "abuse".

It's been a while but I can't think of any shared mounting pieces between the rear suspension, subframe, and the exhaust. Nor do I recall it being necessary to do anything with the rear suspension in order to install or remove an exhaust. Anyone got pics to confirm?

[kaykay]

Get a lawyer

[Singletrack]

Originally Posted by FStop7

It's been a while but I can't think of any shared mounting pieces between the rear suspension, subframe, and the exhaust. Nor do I recall it being necessary to do anything with the rear suspension in order to install or remove an exhaust. Anyone got pics to confirm?

I don't have pics, but they are around...saw the area the other day - probably in the DIY exhaust thread.

There are two brackets holding the exhaust to the rear frame and diff. They are mounted with two studs and two nuts. You remove the nuts to drop the metal hangers for the exhaust; the studs stay in the frame and the diff on the studs. If you don't put the nuts on tight enough, I guess the diff could slide off the studs.

I don't see the connection with the front subframe though. Although I guess if someone were misguided, they might potentially start screwing around with the tranny in the front when installing the front section of the exhaust. Maybe they just found several dents to the front subframe or a huge one and said - well, this is clearly abuse. Which it pretty much is - I mean they will ask you if you were in an accident if they find damage. If you weren't in an accident, then how did it happen?

[francis_p]

If I can give you a little advice, Before you do decide to go to a lawyer, next time you go to your dealer, bring along some official M3 marketing material of the cars on race tracks.

Ask them to explain wtf they are doing advertising like that, if they won't accept responsability if a car breaks because of "driving style"

[stefan]

Originally Posted by francis_p

Ask them to explain wtf they are doing advertising like that, if they won't accept responsability if a car breaks because of "driving style"

Don't bother doing this. Waste of time. That little "abuse" clause in your warranty guide can be tossed around and bent to their will. It's a little bizarre. If there's evidence your car has been repeatedly launched via system log, I'd kiss your warranty goodbye but who knows.

[bohdistava]

i seem to remember back in the day the m5 was only allowed a certain number of launchs or warranty voided. anyone else recal this?

[Echo M3]

Originally Posted by FStop7

And here I thought I was the only one who noticed this.


On topic - I dunno, this is like the third or fourth time I've seen a thread about this kind of failure on here. I'm starting to wonder if there may be something more to this than just "abuse".

It's been a while but I can't think of any shared mounting pieces between the rear suspension, subframe, and the exhaust. Nor do I recall it being necessary to do anything with the rear suspension in order to install or remove an exhaust. Anyone got pics to confirm?

I haven't been keeping track of every single failure, but the common threads linking them all are wheel hop/launching and exhaust modifications.

[Totti]

What exactly is wheel hop? Is it the 'chirping' in between shifts when you dump clutch?

[///My5UV]

Originally Posted by Totti

What exactly is wheel hop? Is it the 'chirping' in between shifts when you dump clutch?

No, it's usually in 1st gear when the wheels break traction, but due to the road surface and tire condition, instead of just spinning on the ground, they get traction on and off, which causes the tires to hop up and down. So you send sharp shocks of force into the drivetrain and suspension bigger than you get from any normal max-throttle driving. It tears stuff up pretty quickly if you don't recognize the problem and ease off the throttle. The rubber bushings in the diff, trans and engine mounts help absorb some of the shock, along with the rubber driveshaft guibo, but it will find any weak points like bolts that weren't torqued properly.

This is not something you see in normal road racing that you could argue an M3 was kinda meant for. It's also not a fast way to get off the line, so you won't see it often in World Challenge or DTM, even though they have to do a hard launch to start each race.

[TX]

The guy with the subframe problem got really quiet recently.

[///My5UV]

Originally Posted by TX

The guy with the subframe problem got really quiet recently.

Hopefully he's working something out with the dealer and is holding off on commenting until he learns more.

[TX]

Originally Posted by ///My5UV

Hopefully he's working something out with the dealer and is holding off on commenting until he learns more.

or BMW NA took him out back and offed him for making noise about the warranty claim ;-)

[///My5UV]

I'm curious if it's the same leased car he was trying to unload, but I'm too lazy to go back and read through all the threads.

[Radiation Joe]

Originally Posted by ///My5UV

No, it's usually in 1st gear when the wheels break traction, but due to the road surface and tire condition, instead of just spinning on the ground, they get traction on and off, which causes the tires to hop up and down. So you send sharp shocks of force into the drivetrain and suspension bigger than you get from any normal max-throttle driving. It tears stuff up pretty quickly if you don't recognize the problem and ease off the throttle. The rubber bushings in the diff, trans and engine mounts help absorb some of the shock, along with the rubber driveshaft guibo, but it will find any weak points like bolts that weren't torqued properly.

This is not something you see in normal road racing that you could argue an M3 was kinda meant for. It's also not a fast way to get off the line, so you won't see it often in World Challenge or DTM, even though they have to do a hard launch to start each race.

Excellent explanation. Too bad it went over the head of 90% of the people on this thread.

[///My5UV]

If I've learned anything from having a 5 year old son, it's that if you tell somebody something often enough it'll eventually sink in :-)